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Affordable Care Act

Discussion in 'Outfield' started by pierremvp1, Oct 1, 2013.

  1. ...

    ... Sun

    Did you forget that dividends, interest, passive real estate income and business income are all part of taxable income?

    Which "wealthy people" are you referring to? The handful who own only federal-tax-exempt municipal bonds? Maybe 1 in 100,000?

    As for "if quality eventually goes down," well, it already did long ago. Only about 50% of MDs now accept Medicaid, even fewer will wind up accepting any policy issued under the ACA -- they hate the even more massive paperwork and requirements. Oregon's 20-year study shows that Medicaid outcomes are worse than being uninsured. Why? You're tied up in the Medicaid bureaucracy shuffle when you try/need to get care. Good luck trying to find a physician with an ACA policy.

    So, as the gigantic disaster of a total fustercluck known as the ACA rolls on and on and on, wreaking havoc on central-planners' pipe-dreams everywhere, I can't wait until the website is fixed so that almost everyone can more quickly and easily understand how badly hammered they will be by higher premiums, deductibles and co-pays. Oh, and lack of choice of physician, can't forget that.

    And, just for the record, it wasn't only Dear Leader who lied about keeping your coverage or MD, there was a large assortment of his Democrat cohorts who did likewise:

    SEN. HARRY REID (D-Nev.): “In fact, one of our core principles is that if you like the health care you have, you can keep it.” (Sen. Reid, Congressional Record, S.8642, 8/3/09)

    SEN. RICHARD DURBIN: “We believe — and we stand by this — if you like your current health insurance plan, you will be able to keep it, plain and simple, straightforward.” (Sen. Durbin, Congressional Record, S.6401, 6/10/09)

    SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): “If you like your insurance, you keep it.” (U.S. Senate, Finance Committee, Bill Mark-Up, 9/29/09)

    SEN. PATTY MURRAY (D-Wash.): “Again, if you like what you have, you will be able to keep it. Let me say this again: If you like what you have, when our legislation is passed and signed by the President, you will be able to keep it.” (Sen. Murray, Congressional Record, S.6400, 6/10/09)

    SEN. MAX BAUCUS (D-Mont.): “That is why one of the central promises of health care reform has been and is: If you like what you have, you can keep it. That is critically important. If a person has a plan, and he or she likes it, he or she can keep it.” (Sen. Baucus, Congressional Record, S.7676, 9/29/10)

    SEN. TOM HARKIN (D-Iowa): “One of the things we put in the health care bill when we designed it was the protection for consumers to keep the plan they have if they like it; thus, the term ‘grandfathered plans.’ If you have a plan you like — existing policies — you can keep them. … we said, if you like a plan, you get to keep it, and you can grandfather it in.” (Sen. Harkin, Congressional Record, S.7675-6, 9/29/10)

    THEN-REP. [now Senator] TAMMY BALDWIN (D-Wis.): “Under the bill, if you like the insurance you have now, you may keep it and it will improve.” (Rep. Baldwin, Press Release, 3/18/10)

    SEN. MARK BEGICH (D-Alaska): “If you got a doctor now, you got a medical professional you want, you get to keep that. If you have an insurance program or a health care policy you want of ideas, make sure you keep it. That you can keep who you want.” (Sen. Begich, Townhall Event, 7/27/09)

    SEN. MICHAEL BENNET (D-Colo.): “We should begin with a basic principle: if you have coverage and you like it, you can keep it. If you have your doctor, and you like him or her, you should be able to keep them as well. We will not take that choice away from you.” (Sen. Bennet, Press Release, 6/11/09)

    SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D-Calif.): “So we want people to be able to keep the health care they have. And the answer to that is choice of plans. And in the exchange, we're going to have lots of different plans, and people will be able to keep the health care coverage they need and they want.” (Sen. Boxer, Press Release, 2/8/11)

    SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D-Ohio): “Our bill says if you have health insurance and you like it, you can keep it…”(Sen. Brown, Congressional Record, S.12612, 12/7/09)

    SEN. BEN CARDIN (D-Md.): “For the people of Maryland, this bill will provide a rational way in which they can maintain their existing coverage…” (Sen. Cardin, Congressional Record, S.13798, 12/23/09)

    SEN. BOB CASEY (D-Pa.): “I also believe this legislation and the bill we are going to send to President Obama this fall will also have secure choices. If you like what you have, you like the plan you have, you can keep it. It is not going to change.” (Sen. Casey, Congressional Record, S.8070, 7/24/09)

    SEN. KAY HAGAN (D-N.C.): ‘People who have insurance they're happy with can keep it’ “We need to support the private insurance industry so that people who have insurance they're happy with can keep it while also providing a backstop option for people without access to affordable coverage.” (“Republicans Vent As Other Compromise Plans Get Aired,” National Journal’s Congress Daily, 6/18/09)

    SEN. MARY LANDRIEU (D-La.): “If you like the insurance that you have, you'll be able to keep it.” (MSNBC’s Hardball, 12/16/09)

    SEN. PAT LEAHY (D-Vt.): “If you like the insurance you now have, keep the insurance you have.” (CNN’s “Newsroom,” 10/22/09)

    SEN. BOB MENENDEZ (D-N.J.): “If you like what you have, you get to keep it” “Menendez is a member of the Senate Finance Committee, which is expected to release a bill later this week. He stressed that consumers who are satisfied with their plans won't have to change. ‘If you like what you have, you get to keep it,’ he said.” (“Health Care Plan Would Help N.J., Menendez Says,” The Record, 6/19/09)

    SEN. JEFF MERKLEY (D-Oreg.): “[E]nsuring that those who like their insurance get to keep it” “The HELP Committee bill sets forward a historic plan that will, for the first time in American history, give every American access to affordable health coverage, reduce costs, and increase choice, while ensuring that those who like their insurance get to keep it.” (Sen. Merkley, Press Release, 7/15/09)

    SEN. BARBARA MIKULSKI (D-Md.): “It means that if you like the insurance you have now, you can keep it.” (Sen. Mikulski, Press Release, 12/24/09)

    SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D-W.Va.): “I want people to know, the President's promise that if you like the coverage you have today you can keep it is a pledge we intend to keep.” (U.S. Senate, Finance Committee, Hearing, 9/23/09)

    SEN. JACK REED (D-R.I.): “If you like the insurance you have, you can choose to keep it.” (Sen. Reed, Town Hall Event, 6/25/09)

    SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-Vt.): “‘If you have coverage you like, you can keep it,’ says Sen. Sanders.” (“Sick And Wrong,” Rolling Stone, 4/5/10)

    SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D-N.H.): ‘if you have health coverage that you like, you get to keep it’ “My understanding … is that … if you have health coverage that you like you can keep it. As I said, you may have missed my remarks at the beginning of the call, but one of the things I that I said as a requirement that I have for supporting a bill is that if you have health coverage that you like you should be able to keep that. …under every scenario that I’ve seen, if you have health coverage that you like, you get to keep it.” (Sen. Shaheen, “Health Care Questions From Across New Hampshire,” Accessed 11/13/13)

    SEN. DEBBIE STABENOW (D-Mich.): “As someone who has a large number of large employers in my state, one of the things I appreciate about the chairman's mark is — is the grandfathering provisions, the fact that the people in my state, 60 percent of whom have insurance, are going to be able to keep it. And Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that. That's a strong commitment. It's clear in the bill … I appreciate the strong commitment on your part and the president to make sure that if you have your insurance you can keep it. That's the bottom line for me.” (U.S. Senate, Finance Committee, Bill Mark-Up, 9/24/09)

    SEN. JON TESTER (D-Mont.): “‘If you like your coverage, you'll be able to keep it,’ Tester said, adding that if Medicare changes, it will only become stronger”. (“Tester In Baker To Discuss Health Care,” The Fallon County Times, 11/20/09)

    SEN. TOM UDALL (D-N.Mex.): “Some worried reform would alter their current coverage. It won't. If you like your current plan, you can keep it.” (“What I Learned: About Health Care Reform This Summer, By Your Lawmakers In Congress,” Albuquerque Journal, 9/8/09)

    SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D-R.I.): “…it honors President Obama’s programs and the promise of all of the Presidential candidates that if you like the plan you have, you get to keep it. You are not forced out of anything.”(Sen. Whitehouse, Congressional Record, S.8668, 8/3/09)

    That was just the Democrat Senators who lied on the record.

    And, back in 2010 every single Democrat Senator voted against the Enzi (R-WY) proposed fix of the HHS regulation, a one-page deal, defeated on a party-line vote:

    “Congress disapproves the rule submitted by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, Department of Health and Human Services relating to status as a Grandfathered Health Plan under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (published at 75 Fed. Reg. 34538 (June 17, 2010)), and such rule shall have no force or Effect.”

    THAT HHS rule is THE rule that forces people out of existing coverage. The Democrats all knew what exactly they were doing -- if you don't force most people into new, overpriced coverage, the whole deal collapses. Defeat the Enzi proposal, allow the HHS rule to go forward. And so it did, with zero Republican votes. Exactly how the whole disaster was passed in the first place.

    There are many, many dozens of Democrat members of the House of Representatives who have also lied on the record. As of this writing, even former Speaker Nancy Pelosi still has the lies on her website -- "Keep your doctor, and your current plan, if you like them."

    Maybe she should read the damned thing (and the 20,000 pages of regulations) so she can find out what's in it.

    Now that the plan that you liked which covered the MD that you liked has been grandfathered by law, and then de-grandfathered by HHS regulation, and then attempted to be un-de-grandfathered by presidential fiat without benefit of law, and you still can't buy it, what can you do?

    I'd suggest throwing any idiot who voted for it out, at the first possible opportunity.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  2. el penguino

    el penguino Marlin

    It's completely amazing how much of a disaster Obamacare has become between the website problems and most Americans realizing that they were duped by Obama and the Democrats into believing that if they "liked their plans, they could keep their plans."

    Obama's approval rating is plummeting now. It's actually lower than the rating of the crack smoking Toronto mayor.
  3. Entendu

    Entendu sXe

    What's even better is that the employer mandate is delayed. I can only imagine how terrible that's going to be once that kicks in.
  4. ...

    ... Sun

    So, as the ACA debacle continues, how did Dear Leader manage to dig his hole so freaking deep?

    Even the under-35 set think he sucks.

    In his first term, he did stuff like the $800 billion "stimulus" which stimulated nothing other than government spending.

    States loved it, they reduced their borrowing dollar for dollar. People mostly saved any tax savings. There were no "shovel ready" jobs, only subsidies for union members. All of that bounced off of most people. Most didn't understand it and it didn't much affect them. They yawned. So did the economy.

    He tried for "climate change" legislation to restrict coal mining and use, etc. That failed, but nobody much noticed except a few coal miners and companies in West Virginia and Kentucky, and who cares about them, anyway?

    He did "cash for clunkers," perhaps the dumbest idea of all time. Very Luddite. All that did was drive up the price of used cars, but that didn't affect very many people because people weren't buying many cars, new or used.

    He got the ACA passed into law, but it was frontloaded on benefits like perpetual children staying on policies until age 26, and backloaded on taxes and other costs, so it all sounded good.

    Didn't really affect too many people since most of it was years away from implementation. Even though most didn't much like it no matter how many speeches he made, it was no big deal, only 50% of the country wanted it repealed. The repeated outright lies about keeping your coverage and doctors kept people calm.

    He ran 4 consecutive trillion dollar federal budget deficits, but the long-term implications of that was over the heads of most people and had no immediate effect on them, so they ignored it.

    The answer to the question is simple.


    Of all the over-reaching, ONLY the ACA will affect 100 to 200 hundred million people directly.

    Nothing else could hold a candle to the ACA in terms of personal damage.

    Higher premiums, higher deductibles, worse coverage in terms of pay-out, smaller doctor and hospital networks, but, of course, coverage for stuff you don't need, want or care about will be the absolute best. I'm sure every single male here is highly concerned with his maternity and birth control coverage, not to mention pediatric dental care for children they don't have.

    Coverage disrupted. Doctors disrupted. Hospitals disrupted. Treatment disrupted. You disrupted.

    All to do what? Cover a few more people?

    The old chesnut was 57 million uninsured. Problem with that is that only about 35 million were American citizens. And the problem with that number is that most of them were already eligible for Medicaid and didn't care -- or were young and didn't care -- or were financially well-off and could pay for their own care. Which only left maybe 3 to 5 million.

    So, how smart is it to disrupt the entire health care system, 1/6th of the entire economy to pick up that last 1 or 2%?

    Did anyone tell them that about 90% of the people with insurance were happy with their insurance?

    Over the next 10 months I'm waiting for the outrage to build to def-con 5 as the next 100 million people find out that they have been screwed over in the interest of facilitating some faculty-lounge idea of how health insurance and health care should work.

    Then, there's the back-end of the system that hasn't been written yet. And more doctors opting out of anything to do with a government system -- Medicare, Medicaid, ACA -- due to crummy reimbursement rates (50% already won't accept new Medcaid patients.) Concierge care, anyone? And insurance companies opting out, or forced into bankruptcy because they can't get paid because healthcare.turd is FUBAR.

    And then, the final devastating realization that the goofy initial premise of the entire ridiculous undertaking was totally mistaken -- that you could induce rational, young, healthy people to buy a grossly overpriced product so that they can subsidize oldsters and the unhealthy.

    All of this supposedly directed and overseen by a guy who has never run so much as a lemonade stand, but who thinks anything he says in a speech is true. The ACA is wonderful! Because I said so!

    We're 11 months from an election. His co-conspirators will eventually run away from this total, ongoing disaster like their hair is on fire. The only question will be whether Congress will remain veto-proof and impeachment-proof.

    This will take many more months and horror stories to fully play out. Never forget that this is the government we're talking about, so absolutely nothing is beyond the realm of possibility in terms of unexpected consequences. Murphy's Law is always hard at work, as has already been conclusively demonstrated.

    I'm going to be enjoying every single minute of it simply because I told anyone who would listen 5 years ago what the end result would be.

    The Marlins think they have PR problems? That's as nothing compared to the ACA. It only gets worse as time goes on.
  5. squall

    squall 8==========D VIP

    I don't disagree with you, but where are you getting these numbers and guestimates from?
  6. ...

    ... Sun

    Any number or guestimate in particular?

    I can support all of them, but rather than bore everyone to death with a full recitation, it would be a lot less work to deal only with those you're not aware of.
  7. squall

    squall 8==========D VIP

    I'm not sure doctors are turning away medicaid patients and accepting privately insured patients ONLY because of poor reimbursement rates. It is a big reason, but not the only reason. I know 33% of doctors wouldn't accept new Medicaid patients in 2011, but haven't seen or found the 50% number for 2013.
  8. I've only seen polls as high as 80% satisfaction with current plans. Regardless, that is pretty damn high, 80% is about as much satisfaction as any service industry could hope for. I also recall a gallup poll that indicated 50% of the uninsured were satisfied with that state.

    The Kaiser Family Foundation (a group in favor the ACA and single payer policies) estimated the number of uninsured that earn less than $50k, will not have insurance within 6 months, and do not qualify for pre-ACA government coverage at 8.2m people. Those are the people that "cannot afford" and do not have government aid. 20% of the uninsured are not legal residents of the US per the census. I cannot find any figures that relate the 8.2m people count against legal status.
  9. ...

    ... Sun

    On docs accepting Medicaid -

    On satisfaction with health insurance -

    On the 57 mill (or whatever other bogus number has ever been tossed around) try this:

    The bottom line is that after illegals, the Medicaid eligible but not enrolled, the young who will never buy anything, the well-off who don't need to buy anything, and those who are between coverage, there are very few left.

    Here's another breakdown based on 46 million "uninsured':

    10 million illegals. 14 mill Medicaid eligible. 18 mill with income over 50K. 18 mill under age 34. Some overlap on those categories, but not that many left involuntarily uncovered.

    The entire "uninsured" argument was and is bloated and bogus. Whether it's 3 or 5 or 8 million actual long-term uninsured who actually want coverage, it's a relatively minor problem that certainly didn't require upending 1/6th of the entire economy to fix.

    But, now, with our shiny new highly dysfunctional ACA, we have more uninsured than before solely because of the ACA.

    Close enough for government work.

    Sit back and enjoy the ongoing meltdown. It's got a very good chance of disabusing a lot of people of the silly notion that government is any good at doing anything other than national defense.
  10. el penguino

    el penguino Marlin

    I found out over Thanksgiving that the vast majority of my relatives are getting their insurance plans dumped.
  11. Entendu

    Entendu sXe

    It's OK, though. Obama's going to raise the minimum wage to $10 so now they have more money to buy insurance!

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