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Marlins Designate Kyle Skipworth

Discussion in 'Miami Marlins' started by floridafly, Dec 18, 2013.

  1. BroncoBob27

    BroncoBob27 Hammerhead

    I can see and partially agree with the point you are making. But to know for sure what has been going on we would have to know if the Marlins talked to those other players, what positions they played, and if the Marlins were looking for those positions. Also if those players had the same agent or if their agents were talking with each other comparing notes. Too many what if's to just come out and state as fact they refuse to give large signing bonuses. Wouldn't surprise if it's true, just no real evidence to support stating it as fact and trying to back up that statement.

    Seems to me our #1 draft pick usually comes down to the wire before actually signing. Not sure if that's a fact or not, just seems like it to me.
  2. el penguino

    el penguino Marlin

    Again, all you have to do is look at the draft board and the signing bonuses given out for each spot. Teams know how much it will take to sign any given first round player. There is plenty of "evidence" here to show that the Marlins have been cheap in the draft and have passed on better players just to save money.

    There is also a general strategy for drafting the best player available, regardless of position. I can't say for sure if Beinfest was dedicated to that mantra, but if he wasn't, that's another one of the organization's blunders.
  3. el penguino

    el penguino Marlin

    You can also look at the total dollars spent on signing bonuses during the Loria years and see that they've been cheap.

    The evidence is overwhelming, but BroncoBob wants to ignore it for some reason.
  4. BroncoBob27

    BroncoBob27 Hammerhead

    Okay. Whatever you say. You are far too smart for me.
  5. BenderRobot

    BenderRobot Hello! VIP

    :mike2

    He's just saying to look at the evidence.
  6. BroncoBob27

    BroncoBob27 Hammerhead

    You mean evidence like the player drafted in front of Chad James signed for a bonus of $1.7 mil? The same as the Marlins gave James, and far less than the Cards gave Miller. Seems like the Marlins were more in sync with the bonuses. Using one draft and then ASSUMING the team has talked to each and every one of the players entering the draft every year is no evidence. It's speculation. I dislike this FO and ownership at least as much as anyone. But that dosen't mean I approve of throwing out speculation dressed up as fact.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2013
  7. el penguino

    el penguino Marlin

    I guess anything that involves numbers doesn't count as "evidence" for you. There are hard statistics to show that the Marlins are one of the cheapest teams when it comes to draft spending. Here are the cumulative totals from 2007 through 2011:

    Top 10:
    1) Pittsburgh: $52,057,400
    2) Washington: $51,084,600
    3) Kansas City: $45,204,900
    4) Boston: $44,097,250
    5) Baltimore: $41,219,700
    6) Tampa Bay: $40,582,200
    7) Toronto: $38,429,600
    8) Seattle: $36,055,900
    9) San Diego: $35,768,100
    10) Arizona: $35,261,000

    Bottom Five:
    26) Philadelphia: $22,802,700
    27) Los Angeles Angels: $22,694,400
    28) Atlanta: $22,011,050
    29) Florida: $21,711,050
    30) White Sox: $18,327,450

    These aren't assumptions. These are facts. The Marlins haven't spent s*** on the draft during the Loria years. The Marlins passing on Shelby Miller in 2009 is symptomatic of this larger culture of cheapness in draft spending.

    As for the first part of your post, are you aware that the Diamondbacks had two first round picks (one was compensation) that they had to pay out bonuses to?
  8. Wild Card

    Wild Card Batting Third

    And it's especially sad that we have spent so frugally in the draft when you consider we're almost always drafting high. Look at the Rays; they've spent almost twice as much as we have, because they draft the best available players, even though they are on a budget.
  9. BroncoBob27

    BroncoBob27 Hammerhead

    I guess you like showing numbers without total explanations just to show that you couldn't possibly be wrong. That shows the Marlins haven't had a top 10 draft pick in those years. Naturally they are going to be low on your scale. The whole truth is they have either paid what the market was set at by seeing what was paid to draftees before them, or even a little higher than the pick before them. You are saying that even tho they had the 23rd pick one year, they should have paid 1-5 numbers. Dosen't make sense.
  10. BroncoBob27

    BroncoBob27 Hammerhead


    Not in those years. More middle of the road. Exception being Skippy at #6 in '08. From '11 back to '07, it goes 14th, 23rd, 18th, 6th, 12th. Before that, 19th, 16th, 27th, and 16th.

    I'm not arguing the effectiveness of our draft picks. That's always a crap shoot. I'm questioning the reasoning for the "poor" drafting that was put forth.
  11. el penguino

    el penguino Marlin

    First of all, the Marlins did have a top ten pick in those years--Skipworth was a #6 pick.

    Secondly, this doesn't account for just the first round. It's all rounds. Even if the Marlins did not have many opportunities to shell out $3 million in bonus money in the first round, it still shows that they skimped in the later rounds. There are plenty of other teams in MLB that had few top 10 picks over that time period, but the Marlins still managed to finish second last in MLB. The Marlins were hurt by having a couple of mid-tier picks, but it's not like they were consistently having one of the best records in baseball from 2007 to 2011.

    It's common knowledge that teams have some estimate of what it will take to sign certain players. Hell, even analysts can anticipate the signabiliy of certain players based upon the anticipated slot value.
  12. BroncoBob27

    BroncoBob27 Hammerhead

    I stated that in the next post.

    But however you want to spin it so you don't have to admit you were wrong is fine with me. You are still saying we should pay top 10 prices for players drfated well below that.
  13. el penguino

    el penguino Marlin

    Those draft positions don't correlate with being second worst in baseball in terms of spending. See what I wrote above.

    And I never said that money was the only reason for Beinfest's poor drafting record, although it is one of several.
  14. el penguino

    el penguino Marlin

    You didn't even bother to address the rest of the post. The cheapness is not relevant to just the first round.
  15. BenderRobot

    BenderRobot Hello! VIP

    Probably irrelevant to the point, but how many drafted players ended up not signing? Couldn't that also skew the numbers somewhat? Not saying the numbers are that high, but it's possible.
  16. el penguino

    el penguino Marlin

    I've only come across one so far, but there might be more. It does't make a difference though because it doesn't appear to be a problem that plagues the Marlins more than any other team.
  17. Nny

    Nny JohNNY

    It's funny because the only person who is spinning anything to not admit they are wrong is you.

    I mean Jesus, this exchange is just saddening.
  18. BroncoBob27

    BroncoBob27 Hammerhead


    I did in off beat way. The Marlins have always paid fair market price in their signing bonuses. Other teams before them set it, and the teal followed suit.

    Now if you could show where the Marlins consistently traded down in the draft to avoid paying higher prices, or consistently paid under what the fair market value was set at, your point would have some validity. Good luck with that.
  19. BroncoBob27

    BroncoBob27 Hammerhead

    So another that thinks we should pay higher than set market value?
  20. Nny

    Nny JohNNY

    Off topic but it's interesting to me how low Atlanta is with how often they churn out guys.

    What they drafted in that time frame: Evan Gattis (Starting C), Freddie Freeman (Starting 1B), Andrelton Simmons (Starting SS), Jason Heyward (Starting RF), Mike Minor (Frontline SP), Craig Kimbrel (Top closer in the game).

    Those 6 combined for a 22.8 WAR last year, or average of ~4 WAR each. Just crazy. Their scouting department is rather amazing to turn out all those players while spending the 3 lowest amount.

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