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    I think I am done arguing with young earth creationists


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    #1 Spike

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    Posted July 05 2014 - 12:24 PM

    I dont generally enjoy doing it, as it causes gigantic crap storms and everyone gets angry and feelings are hurt and yadayadayada. But still, occasionally, I do get into these discussions on Facebook. Most of the time out of a completely different discussion. As in my distaste for the slippery slope caused by the hobby lobby ruling(justified, I might add, as we found out the very next couple of flipping days) turned into a religious war when I said pretty much from the get go my feelings on Christianity and abortion and really Hobby Lobby as a whole were not really relevant in the context of what the case and ruling itself represents. But that was pretty much ignored. If nothing else good came out of it, I hope I got them to realize their hypocrisy when they pretty much openly stated that while they demand religious freedom, it is only religious freedom for their religion, others be damned. I actually had to take it to an implausible extreme. They had no more debate left in them, called me a moron, took their ball and went home...or to another thread on facebook dedicated to calling me a moron, narrowminded, and an idiot. Actually, I got a nice message from a stranger the next day, apparently friends with my cousin who was one I was arguing with, thanking me for sticking up for women(ironically, not my intent either...just like the religious debate that it spawned, it was a happy accident), which made me smile.

    Having said this, and I say this as a person who has never said God doesn't exist. I am more than open to there being a God. That said, I love pointing out the flaws and inconsistencies in the arguments from young earth creationists. I in general find these arguments to be nothing short of rude, and spiteful, to people who have spent their entire lives devoted to making the world a better place and helping us understand the universe around us. I am also always quick to point out that believing in evolution and atheism are not mutually exclusive, in fact the vast majority of Christians believe in evolution AND an old Earth, and young earth creationism is for the most part fairly unique to American Christians.

    But heres why I decided to post this...every week or month or couple of months, a video by some guy that looks like Kevin James, who is a preacher from what I understand, pops up on my news feed. I am not a person who is going to try and change anyones mind or force my beliefs on others, but at the same time I will point out flaws in an argument they are there. The video for this cretin can be found HERE. This video, like I said, pops up quite often and I have quite frankly gotten annoyed with pointing out how dumb it is. Now my cousin deleted the video from her page, so my rebuttal isnt there, but it basically went line item on how he was wrong, right from the start, by pointing out Richard Lenski's e.coli experiment and the bacteria that had evolved to digest nylon show observed evolution; how life evolving slowly over billions of years from a single cell is much more plausible than humanity coming from two individuals, because of the genetic bottleneck that would come with that, the high birthrate/low infant mortality rate that would have to exist for thousands of years that would be greater than what we have now with modern medicine and how this is only further compounded by a worldwide flood(and how there is no evidence for said flood), and how saying "one cell" is kind of spiteful in and of itself because a tiny organism, the amoeba, has a genome 63 billion times larger than a humans; further went on to explain that things being improbable and/or accidental does not mean they are impossible. I pointed out how dismissively trying to lessen the importance of a particular subject by calling it a "just a theory" is ignorant, as science by design has to be testable and falsifiable, and for something to even BECOME a theory it has to go through years of rigorous testing, peer review, etc., pointing out how 400 years after Newton and 500 years after Kepler, gravity and planetary motion are still just theories even though we can observe them and know they are there. I then further iterated that evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life, that is abiogenesis, evolution deals with the diversification of life. I also pointed out his lack of understanding of thermodynamics. I ended by pointing out the irony of him calling the Earth "perfect" as he made this video while driving through Yellowstone, which houses a supervolcano capable of destroying life on earth.

    I wasn't hateful, spiteful, the only person I made fun of in the video was the person himself, pointing out he was wrong from his very first sentence, while also noting his resemblance to Kevin James. But, after that long, thoughtful response(which was much longer, this was the abridged version), you know what the only response I got was...I was called a "moron" and greeted with this picture:8-Billy-Madison-quotes.gif.

    No attempt to refute what I said, just called a moron, given that picture, and when I asked them if they wanted me to provide links to papers, articles, pretty much anything that showed why this guy was a moron, the facebook post was deleted, my Aunt reposted it, and she has now apparently unfriended me from Facebook. This is my own flipping family here.

    Anyway, I bring all this up because, well...I realized that no matter what, no matter what piece of evidence you give, no matter how respectively or abrasively you debate your point, anything you say, it just doesnt matter. Nothing will change their point of view, it is a losing proposition. And I am done doing it. And more than anything, I just needed to vent.


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    #2 Piazza31

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    Posted July 05 2014 - 03:06 PM

    It's good to vent, sometimes it's needed. I routinely use the internet for my own comedic relief and to have semi-intelligible fun with others.

    What I've learned about Facebook is that more people view it as another platform for whatever agenda they have - be it charity, politics, somewhere to gripe about the latest sporting event or even just to feel important. Everyone feels like everyone on there needs to let others know how much they care, live, know and eat and want it all to be at an 11 on a scale of 1-10.

    What I've done is remove myself as much as possible from the shit storm that is Facebook. Eventually I check in every now and then, but that's to see what's waiting for me notification wise.

    No good can come from having a deep intelligent discussion on a Facebook message, kind of similar to here. When your own name is attached to a response rather than a "pen name" I find our responses to be more zealous to show we care and how intelligent and witty we are, rather then the supposed calculated and and thoughtful response. It only fuels the fire when someone feels they have been. "Disrespected and put down" in a post. The idea that "if you weren't behind a keyboard you wouldn't say that" is a farce. You want to be seen as someone who stands for what they believe in, not someone who's mind easily manipulated to the flavor of the week with one post. Sadly, most of what's on Facebook is that- the flavor of the week. Obamas birth certificate comes around every three months though.

    Throw in the crap storm that family can be- and relationships are easily strained.

    The only good that has come from this is that it seems like your family showed their true colors, and how simple and narrow minded they are. Use that to your benefit by just ignoring whatever crap they spew from here on out. The fact their point isn't being made to you would infuriate them further.

    Idiots like to feel like they have strength in numbers, when they realize they can't add one to their ranks it only further fuels their hate.

    I rarely communicate with family, but it's for the best. I come around and they are happy, not dreading what I'm going to say next like they do with the rest of the family. I got married and no one knew except my immediate family and a few friends. Sometimes, being private is what's best. Who gives a shit what I think about abortion, both control, the state of the government or aliens? No one. They just want their next chance to change my mind on the subjects- not what I have to say that could open their own minds.

    Don't let it bother you so much, they only showed their true colors to you. You shouldn't be caught by surprise by that.

    I don't find you to be that dumb.

    #3 Dr Beinfest

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    Posted July 05 2014 - 05:37 PM

    Trying to convince one of them folk to listen to you is like them trying to convince you to be one of them.

     

    It's not worth anyone's time. 



    #4 squall

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    Posted July 05 2014 - 06:46 PM

    Most religious people are so ignorantly entrenched in their beliefs that they take any criticism, sound or unsound, very personally. It's part of organized religion's strategy in order to keep its followers. Take your strongest relationship, throw in some magic, and the promise of eternal safety, and then imagine someone telling you that the relationship is imaginary. Basically, Santa Claus for adults. Even hints would likely cause you to react with your hands over your ears saying nananananana.
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    #5 Piazza31

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    Posted July 05 2014 - 07:16 PM

    Most religious people are so ignorantly entrenched in their beliefs that they take any criticism, sound or unsound, very personally. It's part of organized religion's strategy in order to keep its followers. Take your strongest relationship, throw in some magic, and the promise of eternal safety, and then imagine someone telling you that the relationship is imaginary. Basically, Santa Claus for adults. Even hints would likely cause you to react with your hands over your ears saying nananananana.


    I told my mother in law she doesn't love God, she's just afraid of what he'll do to her. Religious people tend to think about that as a negative- those with an open mind usually realize what I'm saying and start to question their own relationship with religion as what's important- the life you live or what your afraid will happen when you die because of how you lived.

    Next time your in an argument with someone and they say "oh my god" just look them dead in the eye and say "your god can't save you."

    They've done studies you know- 99% of the time, wins every time.

    Sadly , religion in Miami is just one subject I normally don't touch. With such a melting pot of customs and rituals/ relics it is an easy trap to never have an intelligent conversation about.

    #6 Hotcorner

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    Posted July 07 2014 - 07:13 AM

    Trying to convince one of them folk to listen to you is like them trying to convince you to be one of them.

     

    It's not worth anyone's time. 

    yeah this pretty much.  At some point in your life after you've been through it enough you come to realize they're not really having a debate with you.



    #7 Spike

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    Posted July 07 2014 - 08:44 AM

    What I realized was by me arguing it actually, in their minds, seems to validate what they are saying because it gives them a forum. So even though they sound batshit crazy, it still gets put out there for everyone to see.

     

    And I just facepalm all over the place.



    #8 BenderRobot

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    Posted July 07 2014 - 09:12 AM

    What I realized was by me arguing it actually, in their minds, seems to validate what they are saying because it gives them a forum. So even though they sound bats*** crazy, it still gets put out there for everyone to see.

     

    And I just facepalm all over the place.

    Do you Godzilla Facepalm more for them or Wild Card?



    #9 Spike

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    Posted July 07 2014 - 09:41 AM

    I still have hope Wild Card can be reasoned with and learn.



    #10 squall

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    Posted July 07 2014 - 11:41 AM

    I still have hope Wild Card can be reasoned with and learn.

    He's come a decent way.

    #11 mystikol87

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    Posted July 15 2014 - 03:30 AM

    Spike: if you want to affect peoples' opinions, I suggest you look into the growing body of scientific literature about how people respond to (new) information; it's pretty remarkable. Lots of counterintuitive responses.

    #12 Dr Beinfest

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    Posted July 15 2014 - 12:28 PM

    Indeed. Whenever I try to reason with someone I always start by taking their side if I want to impact them, rather than just stick it to them.

    In real life. Here, I don't really care. I'm just mean when I argue. Mystikol said so that one time.

    #13 Spike

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    Posted July 15 2014 - 01:11 PM

    I dont really want to change anyones opinions. If people are happy believing what they believe, then that is fine. But I do enjoy pointing out flawed arguments.



    #14 Spike

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    Posted July 15 2014 - 01:14 PM

    And I honestly dont believe people like Ken Ham really believe the garbage they are putting out there, they just realize that the US is fairly unuique in that it is one of the last places where a large # of people believe in young earth creationism and they have themselves a cash cow.



    #15 Dr Beinfest

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    Posted July 15 2014 - 03:56 PM

    I don't think he's necessarily in it for the cash though. He's in it for the glory.

    #16 BenderRobot

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    Posted July 15 2014 - 05:20 PM

    I don't think he's necessarily in it for the cash though. He's in it for the glory.

    And the cash.



    #17 Dr Beinfest

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    Posted July 15 2014 - 05:33 PM

    It's way too hard to judge that on a religious person directly.

    He could be "giving every penny to god" in his mind. You really don't know how crazy he is.

    #18 BenderRobot

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    Posted July 15 2014 - 05:42 PM

    And the cash.



    #19 squall

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    Posted July 15 2014 - 06:01 PM

    It's way too hard to judge that on a religious person directly.

    He could be "giving every penny to god" in his mind. You really don't know how crazy he is.

    We have a baseline, and it's full on cray.

    #20 Spike

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    Posted July 15 2014 - 07:59 PM

    I dont give Ray Comfort the same leeway, he is legitimately a moron along with his sidekick Kirk Cameron.






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