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Defense Wins Games. Historically, the Marlins Don't Win Many Games.

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23 replies to this topic

#1
SongInTheAir

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#2
Wild Card

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It's funny, because our defense back in the day was just so fucking elite. Remember when our infield was Pudge/DLee/Castillo/AGon/Lowell? Ridiculous.

 

AGon/Castillo double plays were unreal, Lowell finished his career with the best fielding percentage at 3B in MLB HISTORY and if anyone got the throw anywhere close DLee would pick it out. Castillo and Lee specifically were the best I've ever really seen at 1B/2B. I've seen more flashy third basemen than Lowell but never anyone as consistently good.



#3
SongInTheAir

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It's funny, because our defense back in the day was just so fucking elite. Remember when our infield was Pudge/DLee/Castillo/AGon/Lowell? Ridiculous.

 

AGon/Castillo double plays were unreal, Lowell finished his career with the best fielding percentage at 3B in MLB HISTORY and if anyone got the throw anywhere close DLee would pick it out. Castillo and Lee specifically were the best I've ever really seen at 1B/2B. I've seen more flashy third basemen than Lowell but never anyone as consistently good.

Castillo was fantastic as a Marlin but had a few down years defensively which bring down his career numbers. DLee could pick it with the best of them but wasn't great at fielding balls hit to his side of the field. Throws from another infielder? Excellent. Ball off the bat? Not so much. Lowell was similar to McGehee defensively in that he was solid as solid can be, but his range was so limited that he ends up as an average defender at best. 



#4
Wild Card

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Castillo was fantastic as a Marlin but had a few down years defensively which bring down his career numbers. DLee could pick it with the best of them but wasn't great at fielding balls hit to his side of the field. Throws from another infielder? Excellent. Ball off the bat? Not so much. Lowell was similar to McGehee defensively in that he was solid as solid can be, but his range was so limited that he ends up as an average defender at best.

I never really watched Castillo once he went to Minn, so I'm sure you're right about later in his career. But there was a 3-4 year stretch where he was one if the best 2B in the game, and with no power, that's not easy. Defensively, he probably was THE best second baseman for a few years.

I don't remember Lee being specifically bad at fielding batted balls, but you're absolutely right, I'll never forget the picks that guy was able to make. He's probably the only 6'6 250lb man I'll ever see do a split. And he did it constantly.

Please don't ever compare Casey McGehee to Mike Lowell again. C'mon, man. Mike Lowell was not an average defender. C'MON!
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#5
SongInTheAir

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I never really watched Castillo once he went to Minn, so I'm sure you're right about later in his career. But there was a 3-4 year stretch where he was one if the best 2B in the game, and with no power, that's not easy. Defensively, he probably was THE best second baseman for a few years.

I don't remember Lee being specifically bad at fielding batted balls, but you're absolutely right, I'll never forget the picks that guy was able to make. He's probably the only 6'6 250lb man I'll ever see do a split. And he did it constantly.

Please don't ever compare Casey McGehee to Mike Lowell again. C'mon, man. Mike Lowell was not an average defender. C'MON!

Castillo's 2000 was the 10th best season by any Marlin ever (4.5 rWAR)

He's actually the second best player in Marlins history by rWAR, 22.3 rWAR over 4966 plate appearances.



#6
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I believe that. He certainly had 4 fantastic tools.

He had 5 great tools against the knuckleball.

#7
Eddie Altamonte

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Mike Lowell was gold glove caliber throughout his career as a Marlin, DLee is the best defensive 1st baseman  in Marlins history

SongIn TheAir either you are trolling or you never saw these guys play



#8
SongInTheAir

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Mike Lowell was gold glove caliber throughout his career as a Marlin, DLee is the best defensive 1st baseman  in Marlins history

SongIn TheAir either you are trolling or you never saw these guys play

According to Baseball Reference, Derrek Lee's best season defensively was 2006, when he put up a dWAR of 0.1. His best season as a Marlin defensively was 1999, when his dWAR was -0.1.

I did watch DLee play, and he great at "picking it" but there is a whole lot more to defense at first base than that.

 

As for Mike Lowell, his best season was 2001, when he put up 0.8 dWAR.

 

Both of these guys were extremely solid defenders when the ball was hit to them, but they were limited by their lack of range on the field.


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#9
used up

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Advanced fielding statistics are to be used only when discussing Hech.
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#10
Wild Card

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According to Baseball Reference, Derrek Lee's best season defensively was 2006, when he put up a dWAR of 0.1. His best season as a Marlin defensively was 1999, when his dWAR was -0.1.
I did watch DLee play, and he great at "picking it" but there is a whole lot more to defense at first base than that.

As for Mike Lowell, his best season was 2001, when he put up 0.8 dWAR.

Both of these guys were extremely solid defenders when the ball was hit to them, but they were limited by their lack of range on the field.


This gives me less faith in defensive metrics.

#11
BenderRobot

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This gives me less faith in defensive metrics.

Maybe one day they'll come down to some exact science. I'm not entirely trusting of them, either. Can not tell me Stanton is a negative defender.



#12
Spike

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Range does seem to be the main factor.


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#13
SongInTheAir

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Range does seem to be the main factor.

Precisely. A lot of these guys are excellent when the ball is to them, but they can't get to anything more than a few steps away. That's a huge part of defense, especially when being compared to other guys who do in fact get to more balls in play.

#14
Joe8512

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That is part of the frustration behind Jones and Salty. Alex Gonzales was a bad hitter but his contribution was solid with his defense. Jones and Salty have terrible and even worse defense.

A guy can steal second with his hand handcuffed to his foot if salty is catching. Jones messes up how baby plays at first?

#15
Wild Card

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That is part of the frustration behind Jones and Salty. Alex Gonzales was a bad hitter but his contribution was solid with his defense. Jones and Salty have terrible and even worse defense.

A guy can steal second with his hand handcuffed to his foot if salty is catching. Jones messes up how baby plays at first?

That's the problem with defensive metrics. They say that Alex Gonzalez wasn't really anything special, just like they say about Adeiny... Most of us who watched AGon for years can tell you that dude could play SS with the best of 'em...

#16
Joe8512

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That's the problem with defensive metrics. They say that Alex Gonzalez wasn't really anything special, just like they say about Adeiny... Most of us who watched AGon for years can tell you that dude could play SS with the best of 'em...

Agreed. I rarely follow those kinds of stats.

Amazed to see he is still playing.

I wonder how he is at first? Lmao

#17
pollyvonwog

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That's the problem with defensive metrics. They say that Alex Gonzalez wasn't really anything special, just like they say about Adeiny... Most of us who watched AGon for years can tell you that dude could play SS with the best of 'em...

 

metrics have A-gon very good at SS 2003 and 2004 with the fish so not sure what you're referring to. He also had a great defensive 2006, 2009 and 2010 according to merics. 

 

so I don't really get why you're wild cardin and putting a-gon and adeiny in the same sentence. 



#18
wild blue

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metrics have A-gon very good at SS 2003 and 2004 with the fish so not sure what you're referring to. He also had a great defensive 2006, 2009 and 2010 according to merics. 

 

so I don't really get why you're wild cardin and putting a-gon and adeiny in the same sentence. 

because he's "wild turd" 



#19
Piazza31

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because he's "wild turd"



You........


I like you.

You can stay.

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#20
SongInTheAir

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You........


I like you.

You can stay.

7285.gif

Start the new game thread so I can complain about today's lineup!


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