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My approach to getting my money back
rferry, Dude, relax. When did I say that I didn't want to hear the opinion of you and others who don't necessarily agree with me? Even though your tone is often condescending; even though you have no problem bashing the community the Marlins play in with your "banana republic remarks"; even though you don't think it's a problem if cities give away money to fill millionaire's pockets; I never insulted you with my replies. South Florida Marlins fans have every reason to be upset at the ownership, like it or not. You and Das may not care if the Marlins leave and might even prefer it that way (I don't know, just wondering), but others like me who have invested a lot of time and money in this community and its institutions care, and care a lot. As far as perspectives are concerned, I understand what the Marlins are trying to do. I understand what other cities might want to do to get the Marlins. I understand how MLB has been spoiled by so many cities out there who caved in to pressure to keep teams. All I know is that MY perspective is the one that I want the team and its fans to hear, and as a loyal fan since the beginning (no bandwagon crap here), I think I've earned that right. I don't appreciate my community being held hostage by Marlins ownership. I don't appreciate outsiders like you bashing my community. If you don't like my perspective, well you can use your own advice. Just because you don't want to hear the opinion of a Marlin fan whose town has been dealing with MLB and stadium financing for years (or in the case of Das, a Marlins fan in a market that is a competitor to Miami; or prin, who advocates for a special community from miles away; or countless others who may or may not hold a connection to South Florida, but care about the team and its success financially and on the field). If you can't open up your mind and draw some knowledge from our perspectives, well, have fun living in your hole. $138 million from a community toward a stadium is more than enough. Fine, I'm an idealist, but I'm not the only Marlins season ticket holder who thinks this way. If cities are stupid enough to plunk down $500-600 million for a stadium, then good for them. Miami, or any other city for that matter, doesn't have to follow that example. That's fine, but then you can't complain when the Marlins leave Miami to go to another city that is willing to put down public funds for a new stadium. Hey, like I said, if another city wants them bad enough to spend a fortune, go ahead. It'll be a sad day for South Florida, but as FRZ said, don't blame it on the true fans of the team (whether season ticket holders or not). I wasn't aware anyone was blaming the fans that actually support the team, whether that be at the stadium or at City Hall.
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My approach to getting my money back
$138 million from a community toward a stadium is more than enough. Fine, I'm an idealist, but I'm not the only Marlins season ticket holder who thinks this way. If cities are stupid enough to plunk down $500-600 million for a stadium, then good for them. Miami, or any other city for that matter, doesn't have to follow that example. That's fine, but then you can't complain when the Marlins leave Miami to go to another city that is willing to put down public funds for a new stadium. Hey, like I said, if another city wants them bad enough to spend a fortune, go ahead. It'll be a sad day for South Florida, but as FRZ said, don't blame it on the true fans of the team (whether season ticket holders or not).
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My approach to getting my money back
$138 million from a community toward a stadium is more than enough. then you are living in some fantasy world. Fine, I'm an idealist, but I'm not the only Marlins season ticket holder who thinks this way. If cities are stupid enough to plunk down $500-600 million for a stadium, then good for them. Miami, or any other city for that matter, doesn't have to follow that example. Seems that way...huh?
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My approach to getting my money back
MLB will (or should) see it as a huge failure if they lose South Florida. It's not always about what the community can do to support, it's also about what MLB and the Marlins can do. No one is forced to support baseball, no one is forced to buy a single ticket, no matter how myopic our vision may be. If MLB and the Marlins want more fans...then they need to do a better job of reaching out to the community. The Marlins haven't done a bad job of this in the past, but they can and ought to do BETTER. It's their product. You obviously been paying attention to baseball off the field over the past 50 years. Over that time MLB has worked to gain every amount advantage to extracting concessions from MLB. When there is a team under MLb control, whether it be owned, a promised expansion or affiliated, the demand is for a new stadium and favorable lease. I mean this isnt rocket science people. Its time for Miami to pony up like everyone else in MLB that has a team. They never have and have gotten off light to this point. You want a team, pay the price. Jeez. So you're saying that Miami (the county and/or city, there's a difference) should foot the bill entirely? Except for some enlightened franchises like San Francisco which used no real public funds to build their stadium, MLB's insistence that communities pay up is wrong, even if that's been the standard practice. $138 million from a community toward a stadium is more than enough.
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My approach to getting my money back
Someone who spends $4000 for Marlins' seats is hardly on the "radical" fringe. They are the most loyal and dedicated fans. As such, their perspective is most important. Apparently, Loria and Samson don't seem to view it that way. Why is someone who pays $4,000 for their season tickets more of a fan than someone who pays $400? Let me rephrase.... The $4000 spender is not on any "radical" fringe. By "most important", I meant of important value, not MORE important than those who spend less. Bad choice of words on my part.
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Put on ESPN now! Marlins talk on PTI about raising ticket prices
The ticket prices aren't the only thing keeping the poor fans in Miami away. The bulk of the poor population lives in southern Dade, IIRC, far away from JRS/PPS/DS. ???? Last time I checked, the poorest neighborhoods in Miami-Dade were NORTH of Flagler Street, which is Northern Miami-Dade all the way up to near the Stadium. Coral Gables, Pinecrest, Palmetto Bay, Kendall. All fairly wealthy areas. All in the southern half of Miami-Dade farthest away from the stadium.
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My approach to getting my money back
Again, your point is absolutely irrelevant. It was not a marginal increase from 2004 to 2005, it was somewhere in the neighborhood of a 15 to 20% increase across the board. An extra 15-20% when you were already previously paying $4000+ is certainly not marginal. All you're doing is assuming things on subjects that you know nothing about and then you're coming up with these theoretical situations which would A) never happen and B) are so incredibly absurd they're not even worthy of a reply. This is a perfect example of why (most) out-of-state Marlins fans should just stay out of these discussions. So should those on the more radical fringes of the argument. If you were paying $4000 for your seats, you obviously can not speak for most fans and your perspective will obviously be just as different to the situation as the non-local fans. Someone who spends $4000 for Marlins' seats is hardly on the "radical" fringe. They are the most loyal and dedicated fans. As such, their perspective is most important. Apparently, Loria and Samson don't seem to view it that way.
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My approach to getting my money back
MLB will (or should) see it as a huge failure if they lose South Florida. It's not always about what the community can do to support, it's also about what MLB and the Marlins can do. No one is forced to support baseball, no one is forced to buy a single ticket, no matter how myopic our vision may be. If MLB and the Marlins want more fans...then they need to do a better job of reaching out to the community. The Marlins haven't done a bad job of this in the past, but they can and ought to do BETTER. It's their product.
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My approach to getting my money back
If Loria and Samson care so much about keeping baseball here - then they need to do their part. That is, get the damn stadium built. With THEIR MONEY (what a novel concept). It's easy to blame the politicians in this case, but that's not seeing the entire picture. Bottom line: this is Loria's team and Loria's product. He should feel fortunate that he's getting the contribution from the county, because if this went to a vote, the voters would turn public financing down RESOUNDINGLY. The deal with the city of Miami fell through, now Huizenga's proposal is teetering in thin air. What's next? Moving to a market that is willing to meet MLB and the Marlins' demands. You barely show up. When you do you complain about EVERYTHING. And you think MLB has to keep a MLB team here? It's time to pay the price or say goodbye. Thanks to this offseason's firesale/restructuring/market correction, you and your public officials have been given a few years to decide. Do think long and hard whether you want baseball. Because baseball's patience is wearing thin. rferry, I show up, have shown up at games since 1993, hence my nickname. Don't tell me when and what I can post. I only complain when people like you bitch about the lack of fan supportb and defend the team's efforts to get the hell out of town only because they can't negotiate the building of their stadium. As a lifelong resident of South Florida, my commitment and loyalty is to South Florida first, and everything else second. What I want is for the Marlins to back up their claims that they want to stay. Up to now, those claims seem like big lies. If/when they show that commitment, then I'll get off their back. If they don't and leave town, the Marlins franchise will cease to exist in my mind. But until that happens, this original season ticket holder and customer has every right to complain. Especially when they keep on taking $850 from my wallet every month!
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My approach to getting my money back
FACT: Samson said that even if the Marlins had the highest attendance in baseball, the firesale still would have happened, whether you actually believe this or not is a whole other story. It doesn't matter how many season tickets they sell, if the Marlins don't get a new stadium, they're not staying in South Florida, period. Nobody could have imagined that Luis Castillo, Josh Beckett, and others would have been traded, we knew full well about Delgado and possibly Lo Duca, etc. but to trade Luis and Beckett? That is a complete betrayal to the fans. Also, you're preaching to the choir. All of us on here are the diehard fans that do support the team through thick and thin, we're the ones who sat through 24 rain delays, last season, we're the ones who were at games until well into the wee hours of the morning just because we refused to leave during a 3 hour rain delay, so take your argument somewhere else. We do not represent the casual bandwagon fanbase that is South Florida. Best post of the entire thread. The GOOD baseball fans of South Florida deserve better. We've been through too much crap with this franchise. It's amazing how a franchise that has won 2 World Series titles in 7 years can make that achievement seem so hollow. If Loria and Samson care so much about keeping baseball here - then they need to do their part. That is, get the damn stadium built. With THEIR MONEY (what a novel concept). It's easy to blame the politicians in this case, but that's not seeing the entire picture. Bottom line: this is Loria's team and Loria's product. He should feel fortunate that he's getting the contribution from the county, because if this went to a vote, the voters would turn public financing down RESOUNDINGLY. The deal with the city of Miami fell through, now Huizenga's proposal is teetering in thin air. What's next? Loria should also be very fortunate to have the fans the team has, as many or as little as they might be. By gutting the team without moving forward with the stadium issue and threatening to leave, he is slapping the season-ticket holders, the true fan base, squarely in the face. I would understand and be supportive of Loria if there were signs that he would be willing to put more money down to keep the team here. But he's not, and he's beginning to lose the good fans. Loria supporters: Don't feel bad because he's losing money. He's sitting on a gold mine and can sell it for a nice profit whenever he wishes.
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Dolphins Owner Offers Marlins Land, Money
Through all this doom and gloom, it should be noted that it took several years for MLB to move Montreal even though that franchise was dead since the late 90s. There's no reason to believe it would be any different here. MLB should step up and help Loria keep them in South Florida, but I don't trust them one bit.
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Dolphins Owner Offers Marlins Land, Money
Marlins93, I agree. Unfortunately, Loria isn't all of a sudden going to become that much wealthier, so it is looking like he'll need someone to build him his stadium for basically nothing. To me it's looking like the best shot the franchise has of staying in South Florida is for Loria to sell the team. Gustavo Cisneros is able and willing to buy the team and he's worth nearly $5 billion. He would have no problem filling the funding gap. Unfortunately, Loria doesn't want to sell the team. Loria doesn't want to sell the team because he knows how much it's worth now, and how much more it'll be worth in the future. He'd rather leave the area and keep his gold mine than give up some money in the short term to keep the team in South Florida where he "supposedly" wants the team to end up. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't believe Loria wants to stay here that bad.
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Dolphins Owner Offers Marlins Land, Money
Loria's been a good owner for the Marlins, but anyone who thinks that Loria isn't thinking about his wallet first, then community second, is delusional. He says he wants to keep the team here? Fine, put up the money then. The problem is, Loria doesn't have it. He didn't have it in Montreal (remember LaBatts Stadium?), he didn't have it when he bought the Marlins (remember the "loan" MLB gave him), and he doesn't have it now. Everyone (or most everyone) here blamed the city of Miami entirely for the deal falling through. Now we have another party, Wayne Huizenga, almost ready to walk out as well. Hmmm. Sounds like a pattern here. The city of Miami, while fully deserving of their share of the blame for being stubborn asses, put up money and probably got a bit of a run-around from Samson, another stubborn ass in his own right. Huizenga appears to be dealing with the same thing now. Bottom line, and I hate to be pessimistic, but all Loria wants is to have someone buy him the stadium. Simple. He'll wait until Vegas or some other city dumb enough to plunk down 1/2 a billion dollars steps up. Huizenga's offer of free land and $50 million, the county's offer of $138 million simply aren't enough for Loria. I wish it were different, but someone locally is going to have to step up with lots of cash, or the Marlins are gone.
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Blame the fans, I think not.
Amen FishFan! So many people on this board look at the Marlins 28th place ranking, low number of season tickets holders, number of Latin fans vs. Palm Beach County fans (ridiculous argument if I ever heard one), and automatically deem this to be a bad baseball town. Call me crazy, but South Florida is a good baseball market waiting for the right opportunities. Nobody can tell me with a straight face that the massive celebrations after the 2003 World Series were contrived and not heartfelt. A lot of people here love their baseball, but we need a better baseball stadium. The demographics of this community are complex, much more so than almost every other baseball market in this country. We have a transient population, people from everywhere and anywhere, people who have lived here 60 years and people who have been here 60 days. We have a lot of divided loyalties, much more so than in New York, Boston, Chicago, Cleveland, etc. Divided loyalties means less devoted fans of the local teams, that's why it takes TIME to build a loyal fan base. That's also why South Florida is a tough sports market. Not one person who has responded in this thread has made this point which is central to the whole argument. Call it an excuse, but call it a fact as well. FishFans numbers speak for themselves so I won't repeat them. Should the Marlins be drawing more than 22,000 a game? Sure. But I ask this? So what? The baseball-starved fans of Washington averaged 33,600 a game for their first season in 35 years. The Marlins averaged 37,000 in their first season, and about 33-34K in the strike-shortened second season. How come nobody is saying how bad DC fans are? The 2005 Marlins had a higher percentage of attendance vs capacity (baseball only) compared to the holy Mets of New York. Irrelevant? Misleading? Maybe, but facts are facts. I live in Kendall and it is a bear to drive NORTH to games on weeknights. Call it an excuse, but call it a fact as well. People who drive south from Plantation or Boca have a much easier drive. A roofed stadium in the same location would at least give the assurance that a game will be played, that by default would increase attendance (a winning product helps too!). A lot of people on this board trash the Dolphins. I think they're jealous. Jealous because they have succeeded in building a large loyal fan base where the Marlins haven't. The Dolphins have had time and success to build their base. Remember, Miami in the 60s and 70s was a bit more stable as far as population was concerned, it wasn't until the 80s that the big population shift began. The Dolphins were the only game in town for a long time, so people naturally acquired loyalty to them. The Dolphins have a tradition of success and class not only in the NFL, but in all of sports. I am truly hoping and praying that something can be done to build a stadium in South Florida for the Marlins. The potentially sweet irony of all this is that it would likely have to come down to the Dolphins helping the Marlins out. By the Dolphins, I mean their owner H. Wayne Huizenga. The despised Dolphins of marlinsbaseball.com. I am no fan of Huizenga after what he did in 1998, but I would be the first to congratulate him if he ends up helping the Marlins stay. How many of you will join me?
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Take a deap breathe
The original post is right on target, as well as many of the replies. San Francisco and Chicago (Sox) came within an eyelash of losing their teams back in the early 90s. The Marlins' strategy of taking a more proactive and public stance is a smart one and should have been done much earlier in the game. The thought of other cities vying for the team is unsettling, but IF the county steps up, I don't think we have to worry about losing the team. No more excuses now that the city of Miami is out of the picture.
Marlins93
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