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Austin Brice designated for assignment (Warning: Thread has nothing to do with Brice)

Das Texan

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I've said it once and I'll say it again... the Marlins may have lost the 2003 trade that got them Ugueth Urbina for Adrian Gonzalez in terms of WAR but in exchange they won the 2003 World Series so you tell me who lost that trade?
marlins didn’t win the World Series by moving Yelich.

they made a moronic trade instead of building around yelich like they should have.

and they got back lesser value because the only thing that really mattered was saving money instead of getting the return a Yelich should have demanded.

prove me wrong.
 

rmc523

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I've said it once and I'll say it again... the Marlins may have lost the 2003 trade that got them Ugueth Urbina for Adrian Gonzalez in terms of WAR but in exchange they won the 2003 World Series so you tell me who lost that trade?
Different scenarios. Gonzalez wasn't signed to an obviously team friendly deal.

I'm in the camp of they should've kept and built around Yelich and Realmuto, and said that at the time, but it's water under the bridge now.
 

SilverBullet

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Didn't realize reading comprehension was such a weakness around here.

I didn't say the Gonzalez and Yelich trades were the same and I didn't say the Marlins won the World Series by moving Yelich... I was proving @FishFan95 's point that there are different ways to win a trade besides just by comparing WAR... the 2003 trade mentioned above is a perfect example of that.
 

SilverBullet

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the only thing that really mattered was saving money instead of getting the return a Yelich should have demanded.
The Yelich trade was not about saving money, it was about moving someone that they thought would be a clubhouse problem. Whether we agree with it or not, that's what it was.
 

MarlinsLou

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You don't have to "win" the trade. You just have to have those players be big parts in giving the Marlins something that Yelich and company could never do. Get to the playoffs. Or at the very least an actual winning season.
There are tons of hypotheticals - like winning the world series with Urbina - which overcomes an objective analysis, but you don't go into trades to not "win" them.

There is no defense to the Yelich trade. I'll be thrilled if Isan and Monte turn into 2 WAR starters, and Yamamoto chips in 500 innings for the club, but the scale is still tipping for Yelich. They should have never traded him. I don't care about the alleged personality issues - winning cures all and they should be playing to win. They could have done every move the same, sucked for 2 years, and they'd be in a better position right now with Yelich. That matters to me and deserves criticism until they do something to overcome it. That hasn't happened yet.
 

MarlinsLou

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The Yelich trade was not about saving money, it was about moving someone that they thought would be a clubhouse problem. Whether we agree with it or not, that's what it was.
I agree it wasn't about saving money, but a clubhouse problem is a poor excuse.

It's the equivalent of trading a franchise quarterback, not some disgruntled safety, if I may make that analogy. Totally different scenario of having an alpha cornerstone player and not just a really good other outfielder signed for 2 years. It's probably more egregious than not buying out Miguel Cabrera's arbitration in 2004/2005. I honestly think it's the worst move in franchise history.
 

SilverBullet

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There are tons of hypotheticals - like winning the world series with Urbina - which overcomes an objective analysis, but you don't go into trades to not "win" them.
Of course you don't go into trades to "not win" them but, as a fan who in theory wants my team to win the World Series every single season, I'll take a World Series win over winning a comparison of WAR stats.

Try telling Marlins fans in 2003 that the Marlins made a bad trade getting Urbina for Gonzalez.
 

FishFan95

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There are tons of hypotheticals - like winning the world series with Urbina - which overcomes an objective analysis, but you don't go into trades to not "win" them.

There is no defense to the Yelich trade. I'll be thrilled if Isan and Monte turn into 2 WAR starters, and Yamamoto chips in 500 innings for the club, but the scale is still tipping for Yelich. They should have never traded him. I don't care about the alleged personality issues - winning cures all and they should be playing to win. They could have done every move the same, sucked for 2 years, and they'd be in a better position right now with Yelich. That matters to me and deserves criticism until they do something to overcome it. That hasn't happened yet.
I also don't think that all trades should be ruled as far as a winning team and a losing team. The Brewers have won the trade. There is no denying that. It can still be a win-win if the young guys really break out in the next few seasons.
 

FishFan95

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Of course you don't go into trades to "not win" them but, as a fan who in theory wants my team to win the World Series every single season, I'll take a World Series win over winning a comparison of WAR stats.

Try telling Marlins fans in 2003 that the Marlins made a bad trade getting Urbina for Gonzalez.
Or a Cubs fan that they should not have gotten 2 months of Chapman for Gleyber Torres.
 

FishFan95

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I also find it ironic that the trade that at the time was heralded as the best trade of the off-season from several credible sources is now being seen as a candidate for worst move in team history. Too much confirmation bias going on here.
 

MarlinsLou

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I also find it ironic that the trade that at the time was heralded as the best trade of the off-season from several credible sources is now being seen as a candidate for worst move in team history. Too much confirmation bias going on here.
Those people didn't get it.

It was clearly the worst of the Stanton/Ozuna/Yelich/Realmuto moves based on years of control, contract status, and return at the time of trade. The Marlins got killed. Which is really insane as he was the most valuable of all of them - maybe combined.
 

MarlinsLou

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I also don't think that all trades should be ruled as far as a winning team and a losing team. The Brewers have won the trade. There is no denying that. It can still be a win-win if the young guys really break out in the next few seasons.
The what if of having a 6-7 WAR Yelich for 5 seasons out weighs to me Isan and Monte becoming consistent 2 WAR starters.

I mean, that would be great if they developed two 2 WAR players, but you still gave up way much even if they are useful.

It's a truly mind boggling trade that will never make sense. But I hope Monte goes all Eddie Rosario with plus center field defense on us, and Isan becomes a poor man's Uggla. That would be great.
 

SilverBullet

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It's been said there weren't really that many teams pursuing Yelich at the time though and the Brewers offer might have really been the best of the bunch. So it seems more like the Marlins didn't realize how much more they could get for Yelich and thus rushed into the best return at the moment instead of holding out for more, right?

Compare it to the Realmuto deal where many teams made offers but the Marlins held their ground until the Phillies upped the return at the last moment.
 

MarlinsLou

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It's been said there weren't really that many teams pursuing Yelich at the time though and the Brewers offer might have really been the best of the bunch. So it seems more like the Marlins didn't realize how much more they could get for Yelich and thus rushed into the best return at the moment instead of holding out for more, right?

Compare it to the Realmuto deal where many teams made offers but the Marlins held their ground until the Phillies upped the return at the last moment.
Who really knows, but all I know on a pure baseball level is, they made a bad trade at the time of trade and you never do that. It doesn't matter as it's done, but we can hope the Brewers guys work out.

But Austin Brice is WHATEVA to get back on track. They have many similar arms so it's hard to criticize this one. I reserve criticism for the Paddack level deals, calling up Fernandez to not delay his service time clock, refusing to buyout Cabrera's arbitration, etc. Those are the real stupid ones. None of us are losing sleep over Nick Wittgren, Chris Hatcher, and Grant Dayton.
 

rmc523

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It's been said there weren't really that many teams pursuing Yelich at the time though and the Brewers offer might have really been the best of the bunch. So it seems more like the Marlins didn't realize how much more they could get for Yelich and thus rushed into the best return at the moment instead of holding out for more, right?

Compare it to the Realmuto deal where many teams made offers but the Marlins held their ground until the Phillies upped the return at the last moment.
That's what made the least sense - it seemed like they rushed to do a trade to do a trade. And while they may have taken the best deal available, that doesn't mean they had to take it. If he wasn't under control like Ozuna, you could've been ok with it, but he was signed already to a crazy team friendly deal - only a vast overpay should have been accepted.
 

SilverBullet

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That's what made the least sense - it seemed like they rushed to do a trade to do a trade. And while they may have taken the best deal available, that doesn't mean they had to take it. If he wasn't under control like Ozuna, you could've been ok with it, but he was signed already to a crazy team friendly deal - only a vast overpay should have been accepted.
I feel like the Realmuto trade showed what the front office learned from the mistakes of the Yelich trade.
 
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Who really knows, but all I know on a pure baseball level is, they made a bad trade at the time of trade and you never do that. It doesn't matter as it's done, but we can hope the Brewers guys work out.
Nobody at the time of the trade said. The Marlins got a haul of prospects, which was a fair price for a high-ceiling guy who hadn't put it all together yet.

Here's from the FG writeup:
We expected that the package would be significant given Yelich’s talent and a contract that will pay him around $10 million a year for the next five seasons. It is big with Brinson as the headliner. The young outfielder just appeared 18th on Baseball America’s recently released top-100 list, while Eric Lohenhagen placed a 60 future-value grade on Brinson, making him one of the best prospects in baseball.

The deal isn’t just Brinson and filler, either. Longenhagen listed Monte Harrison as the third-best prospect in the Brewers system, with Isan Diaz close behind at the six spot. All three profile as average regulars at least. Yamamoto is more of a project, but he has an above-average curveball.
Trades must be assessed based on the information available at the time. It is revisionist and frankly incorrect to paint the trade as a steal at the time.
 

SilverBullet

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Trades must be assessed based on the information available at the time. It is revisionist and frankly incorrect to paint the trade as a steal at the time.
Another point that kills me... people look back and think we knew that we traded away the 2018 NL MVP but he hadn't done that yet. At the time of the deal Yelich had potential and was definitely great but he was absolutely not a star or any bit of an MVP yet. Gotta remember how many teams didn't even want him too, which is why the Brewers offer seemed so relatively good at the time. The Marlins in no way could have called teams and said "this guy is the next NL MVP so you need to give us a return worthy of that."
 

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