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Forbes '06 Operating Income Numbers

Valyekrin

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Wow... that's really dissapointing, he could really have reinvested some of that money... in a Closer, or Centerfield... Oh well.
 

BroncoBob27

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Never have believed any numbers Forbes puts out there. Mainly because I have never heard an owner or org say anything other than Forbes is doing nothing but very poor guesses. Same statements from the MLB offices. But even if those numbers are true the Marlins still have a ways to go to make up for all the losses they have incurred since this group took over.
Congrats to the orginization for finally making some $$$ and keeping an exciting team on the field at the same time. Even if there is only a few of us that actually go watch them display their talents. I hope they net $100 mil this year.
 

prinmemito

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it's next to last in operating revenues... which means we profited only because of our ridiculously low payroll.

this would be a good time to increase the team's contribution to the stadium
 

Shamrock

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I think he's covering losses from past seasons as well as trying to profit from his business. As bad as this looks (cant so I like it), I think this is all a lead up to a new ballpark and finally some stability to this franchise.
 

JetsMania

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Never have believed any numbers Forbes puts out there. Mainly because I have never heard an owner or org say anything other than Forbes is doing nothing but very poor guesses. Same statements from the MLB offices. But even if those numbers are true the Marlins still have a ways to go to make up for all the losses they have incurred since this group took over.
Congrats to the orginization for finally making some $$$ and keeping an exciting team on the field at the same time. Even if there is only a few of us that actually go watch them display their talents. I hope they net $100 mil this year.

I hope you are joking? The only reason he made that much is because he slashed payroll down to 14 million and pocketed all of the revenue sharing money.
 

MarlinFan10

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I'm okay with this as long as this money goes towards a new stadium and/or a long term deal for Miggy.
 

Marlino

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There are no "losses" in owning MLB franchises. When he sells the team he will make money-overall (appreciation less investment/losses). He pocketed money last year and the league called him on it. If he is not going to invest it in a stadium then he is screwing the fans.
 

JetsMania

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I'm okay with this as long as this money goes towards a new stadium and/or a long term deal for Miggy.
 

Marlins2003

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There are no "losses" in owning MLB franchises. When he sells the team he will make money-overall (appreciation less investment/losses). He pocketed money last year and the league called him on it. If he is not going to invest it in a stadium then he is screwing the fans.

Except that considering the losses in Montreal were all funded by Loria (which led to the dilution of the former majority group who quit making their operating contribution "calls" remember?) and the losses sustained from 2002-2005, it's inconceivable that even if the $43 million were correct, and it's highly suspect considering other calculations in the same presentation (ask yourselves, is the Dolphin Stadium lease worth the $29 million Forbes uses in valuing the worth of the franchise?) the increase from $158 million (plus the Montreal losses) to the $244 million number calculated by Forbes seems extraordinarily suspect. And my guess is the revenue from clubseats and suites is counted as Marlins revenue when the bulk of it goes to stadium debt service.

Not to mention, Tampa Bay with a far superior lease and more attendance and revenue but a higher payroll, only made half as much. Impossible. Or the New York Yankees (the whole organization including media*???*) lost $25 million last season? This is a flawed model that is rolled out of storage every year so they can compare it to previous years' numbers, obviously alot of numbers on both sides of the equation are missing and if I were (assuming I owned the Marlins) asking a loan committee to fund a project based on this picture of baseball generally and the Marlins in particular, I'd be laughed out of the room.

I happen to think MLB should open its books more, not just the Marlins but every team (in all sports) although I respect their right not to. Doing so can lead to micro-managing by fans and meddling and grandstanding by politicians and others, but some unified MLB-generated, big eight accounting firm accredited numbers could be generated that offer to cast some light on how our team and every other team is doing seems appropriate. Ditto NFL, NBA, etc.

I would love to see Huizenga make a full disclosure of not just the Dolphins' entity but the stadium entity and the ancilliary ones he hold*s* separate and apart, but are integral parts of the operation. I suspect people would behorridied how he's fleecing his tenant.


* * = edit
 

rferry

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Re: Loria pockets revenue sharing
Prove it. There's been only one owner who has been found to be using their team's revenue sharing transfer surplus to activities it was not intended for, which I remind you include maintenance and investments in minor league operations and developmental and scouting. And that owner was not the Loria. From our many discussions on topics, many of you show your ignorance on the subject. And yet despite being provided many links to information, you neither cite or refute these available resources. Instead you make sh*t up out of thin air. And while it may sound nice and fit in line with what we're experiencing, it is far from the truth the available information points to. Just something to consider before you make accusations you can't back up.

Now, our payroll is an embarassment and we all share some of the blame for that. Including Loria. But you can't fault the guy for trying to make a profit. Him and his investors have took a bath in Montreal. They're taking a bath here. And before they can even realize the profit Marlino alludes to, they must invest heavily in building support for a new stadium. Baseball is a business. And the Marlins should be credited for finding a way to keep an exciting team on the field and minor league system adequately stocked without huge costs, financial or as it would appear, fan experience or loyalty. It would make for an interesting case study.
There is Morton's Steakhouse and there is McDonald's. And even before 1993, you should have known this wasn't going to be a Morton's. So don't expect it to be. Don't rail ownership for accepting the realities you choose to ignore (and the South Florida public has ignored since the stadium issue was brought up over 10 years ago). Because I've got another piece of reality for you: The Cubans, the Cisneros, the Huizengas, the Morenos, etc. would operate the Marlins, in their present state, and the stadium situation much more similar to Loria than any of your fantasies.
Maybe that's the jerk way to say it, or may be I'm saying common sense. And I'm sure plenty of you will blow it off as the out-of-state fan not understanding. To you, I say if you keep on living in your bubble, it's going to pop and deflate if you don't begin to realize what's beyond it.
 

FreshFish

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no wonder there is no rush to get a stadium deal done

if ain't broke. don't fix it
 

Marlins2003

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no wonder there is no rush to get a stadium deal done

if ain't broke. don't fix it

From Wayne Huizenga's point of view, that's exactly right !





(j/k)
 

JetsMania

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There are no "losses" in owning MLB franchises. When he sells the team he will make money-overall (appreciation less investment/losses). He pocketed money last year and the league called him on it. If he is not going to invest it in a stadium then he is screwing the fans.

Except that considering the losses in Montreal were all funded by Loria (which led to the dilution of the former majority group who quit making their operating contribution "calls" remember?) and the losses sustained from 2002-2005, it's inconceivable that even if the $43 million were correct, and it's highly suspect considering other calculations in the same presentation (ask yourselves, is the Dolphin Stadium lease worth the $29 million Forbes uses in valuing the worth of the franchise?) the increase from $158 million (plus the Montreal losses) to the $244 million number calculated by Forbes seems extraordinarily suspect. And my guess is the revenue from clubseats and suites is counted as Marlins revenue when the bulk of it goes to stadium debt service.

Not to mention, Tampa Bay with a far superior lease and more attendance and revenue but a higher payroll, only made half as much. Impossible. Or the New York Yankees (the whole organization including media) lost $25 million last season? This is a flawed model that is rolled out of storage every year so they can compare it to previous years' numbers, obviously alot of numbers on both sides of the equation are missing and if I were (assuming I owned the Marlins) asking a loan committee to fund a project based on this picture of baseball generally and the Marlins in particular, I'd be laughed out of the room.

I happen to think MLB should open its books more, not just the Marlins but every team (in all sports) although I respect their right not to. Doing so can lead to micro-managing by fans and meddling and grandstanding by politicians and others, but some unified MLB-generated, big eight accounting firm accredited numbers could be generated that offer to cast some light on how our team and every other team is doing seems appropriate. Ditto NFL, NBA, etc.

I would love to see Huizenga make a full disclosure of not just the Dolphins' entity but the stadium entity and the ancilliary ones he hold seprate and apart, but are integral parts of the operation. I suspect people would behorridied how he's fleecing his tenant.


The yankees number includes the cost of the new stadium thats being built.
 

Marlins2003

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The yankees number includes the cost of the new stadium thats being built.

Which was my point. The static model Forbes uses from year to year, doesn't include room for events or items outside the norm that can wildly throw off the relevance of the numbers they generate. I doubt it also includes the "Yes" Network, which from a corporate standpoint sits apart from the Yankees (baseball team) but clearly is part of the Yankees' family.
 

anotherrealfan

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When looking into the term operating revenue, remember there are accouting concepts that use income and expenses in a manner different than you and I. Costs are amortized and allocated even before they are paid for. So operating income can be higher or lower than actual cash revenue.

Regardless, the tone of the thread again appears that if you support ownership you jump all over the anti-Loria group ( and I lean towards that side) and if you don't then Loria is all evil. I feel it is certainly at neither end of the spectrum, but Loria is not just drowning in red ink. He has a product that has appreciated in value. His right to make a profit is unquestionable but must fall within the parameters of the enterprise he is in. We all argue points about being in business etc., but sports and baseball is not just about profit since it encompasses all the passion and feelings a community has for its team. Thus, it is unlike a construction company or furniture store. Just how much is Jeffrey willing to put back into the team and a stadium? The book is still out on him but so far, I am not liking the story.

I will always feel that Wayne dumping the marlins due to losses was a farce because all the revenue the team generated outside of ticket sales went into other corporate books. Parking, concessions, tv and radio rights, management fees, etc.
 

DelGOT2Rings

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Also mentioned in the article was that TBay has a greater valuation than the Marlins. Does anyone actually believe that? On two levels, (1) perceived value as a professional organization and (2) actual operating revenues, I would have to think that was fallacious. For instance, if for some reason the two teams were for sale, which would fetch a higher price? I doubt it would be the team in a smaller market with equally bad stadium issues, NO history of winning, and a larger operating payroll. Also, if the teams were to re-locate, which one would be more highly sought after? The only thing that TBay has going for it over the Marlins is that they have the RedSox and Yanks in their division. If those two teams were in the Marlins' division, I'd wager our attendance would be higher, if for no other reason than the opposing team's fans buying tickets. Forbes loses a lot of credibility when they rank TBay anything other than dead last.
 

Lefty

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You know, if Loria had put several million in hedge funds when he took over the franchise, he could've generated quite a lot of money to use for improvements to the team.
 

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