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gomarlins9703

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and mckeon is the same guy that got lucky enough to have Braden Looper pitch ugueth urbina out of a bases loaded jam. Braden Looper was a piece of crap... and Jack McKeon may have been the luckiest manager alive that year. He wasnt a managerial genius, evidenced by his mercenarial behavior since 1912.

yea he worked magic, but he wasen't afraid to get off his ass and change something that was not working. You can't work magic if you don't do anything.
 

Fallen Apple

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The strike zone was small.
Theres alot of reasons we lost tonight but the point in something has got to change we cant keep walking 10 batters a game, we must get more production from the middle of our lineup and Freddi has to learn to make pitchers out but God dammit were going to win this series and start streaking.
 

FlummoxedLummox

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I don't want to be the drop of water that starts the waterfall, but Gregg needs to be pulled after walking the first two batters in the 9th. This is my first strike against Fredi.

Plus, Borchard needs let Uggla catch that ball. With his back to the outfield, Uggla can't see Joe coming and he clearly waved everyone off.

Yeah, with Tank warming, Gregg had no business staying in the game after the second walk.

Other than that, not to turn this into a whole "macho" thing, but to anyone that has played baseball (I did through my sophomore year of college) you know that an outfielder always has priority over an infielder...always.

If anyone's interested, here's the priority list on a fly-ball:

Outfield
Centerfield
Right/left-field

Infield
Short-Stop
Third-baseman/Second-Baseman
1st Baseman
Catcher
Pitcher

Theoretically, if the centerfielder is playing reeeeeally shallow, he could call off infielders on the infield :p
I'm aware of the hierarchy, but rationally Uggla has a poor chance of hearing Borchard since his head facing away and no chance of seeing him. Borchard is in better position to see the other players around him, and Uggla clearly waved everyone off.
 

TSwift25

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I don't want to be the drop of water that starts the waterfall, but Gregg needs to be pulled after walking the first two batters in the 9th. This is my first strike against Fredi.

Plus, Borchard needs let Uggla catch that ball. With his back to the outfield, Uggla can't see Joe coming and he clearly waved everyone off.

Yeah, with Tank warming, Gregg had no business staying in the game after the second walk.

Other than that, not to turn this into a whole "macho" thing, but to anyone that has played baseball (I did through my sophomore year of college) you know that an outfielder always has priority over an infielder...always.

If anyone's interested, here's the priority list on a fly-ball:

Outfield
Centerfield
Right/left-field

Infield
Short-Stop
Third-baseman/Second-Baseman
1st Baseman
Catcher
Pitcher

Theoretically, if the centerfielder is playing reeeeeally shallow, he could call off infielders on the infield :p
I'm aware of the hierarchy, but rationally Uggla has a poor chance of hearing Borchard since his head facing away and no chance of seeing him. Borchard is in better position to see the other players around him, and Uggla clearly waved everyone off.

Well, rationally, if both players are looking skyward for the ball, what good is waving going to do. ;)

There has to be communication, and quite frankly, the lack of verbal communication on this team is appalling and another strike on the coaching staff (not that I even want to go that route).
 

Cabrerafan

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Gregg should have been pulled after the second walk, I felt like jumping off a cliff after the Uggla/Borchard misplay, and Cabs is actually human.
 

FlummoxedLummox

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You're right, but Borchard does have a better opportunity to quickly observe his surrounding or even see something waving him off from his peripheral vision. Admittedly, though, Uggla has been making some really poor decisions this season. (On the basepaths and now in the field)
 

TSwift25

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All I'm going to say on that play is this:

If you're an outfielder trucking in, you're not looking at anything other than the ball. With the roof, the ball's tough to pick up, once Borchard got into the area, his head never came off the ball. If you watch the replay, Uggla clearly takes the ball out of Borchard's glove. If Borchard were to peel off there and the ball drops behind Uggla (because, let's be honest, he had to use all 5'5'' of him just to reach up for that one) it's all Borchard's fault.

Finally, if Borchard's in position, it's only rational for him to assume that the infielders knowing the outfield priority would peel off, Uggla's presence alone doesn't mean Borchard knows he's going to catch it, or should be expected to catch it.
 

Hammerhead

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All I'm going to say on that play is this:

If you're an outfielder trucking in, you're not looking at anything other than the ball. With the roof, the ball's tough to pick up, once Borchard got into the area, his head never came off the ball. If you watch the replay, Uggla clearly takes the ball out of Borchard's glove. If Borchard were to peel off there and the ball drops behind Uggla (because, let's be honest, he had to use all 5'5'' of him just to reach up for that one) it's all Borchard's fault.

Finally, if Borchard's in position, it's only rational for him to assume that the infielders knowing the outfield priority would peel off, Uggla's presence alone doesn't mean Borchard knows he's going to catch it, or should be expected to catch it.
Still, its your job as an outfielder, no matter how green you may be, to notice a guy frantically waving and calling you off.
 

TSwift25

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All I'm going to say on that play is this:

If you're an outfielder trucking in, you're not looking at anything other than the ball. With the roof, the ball's tough to pick up, once Borchard got into the area, his head never came off the ball. If you watch the replay, Uggla clearly takes the ball out of Borchard's glove. If Borchard were to peel off there and the ball drops behind Uggla (because, let's be honest, he had to use all 5'5'' of him just to reach up for that one) it's all Borchard's fault.

Finally, if Borchard's in position, it's only rational for him to assume that the infielders knowing the outfield priority would peel off, Uggla's presence alone doesn't mean Borchard knows he's going to catch it, or should be expected to catch it.
Still, its your job as an outfielder, no matter how green you may be, to notice a guy frantically waving and calling you off.

Not to turn this into a pissing contest, but have you ever played baseball?

Catching a flyball is hardly as easy as it looks, and the process done is nothing like you'd expect. You run to the spot and then find the ball again. Once you're in the "spot" you're doing nothing but looking skyward. There's no recognition of what's going on around you at that point, it isn't a half and half looking around. It's no coincidence that so many collisions happen on 'tweener fly-balls like that. There is just an inexcusable lack of communication.
 

OldSand

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It was Borchard's ball. Uggla needed to let him get that.


/discussion
 

Hammerhead

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All I'm going to say on that play is this:

If you're an outfielder trucking in, you're not looking at anything other than the ball. With the roof, the ball's tough to pick up, once Borchard got into the area, his head never came off the ball. If you watch the replay, Uggla clearly takes the ball out of Borchard's glove. If Borchard were to peel off there and the ball drops behind Uggla (because, let's be honest, he had to use all 5'5'' of him just to reach up for that one) it's all Borchard's fault.

Finally, if Borchard's in position, it's only rational for him to assume that the infielders knowing the outfield priority would peel off, Uggla's presence alone doesn't mean Borchard knows he's going to catch it, or should be expected to catch it.
Still, its your job as an outfielder, no matter how green you may be, to notice a guy frantically waving and calling you off.

Not to turn this into a pissing contest, but have you ever played baseball?

Catching a flyball is hardly as easy as it looks, and the process done is nothing like you'd expect. You run to the spot and then find the ball again. Once you're in the "spot" you're doing nothing but looking skyward. There's no recognition of what's going on around you at that point, it isn't a half and half looking around. It's no coincidence that so many collisions happen on 'tweener fly-balls like that. There is just an inexcusable lack of communication.
Not to change the subject, but as long as we're talking about inexcusable, its inexcusable for a manger to make the same mistake in a two week span. I don't care if this is his first year as a manager, you saw what happened when you leave a pitcher struggling to throw strikes in the game IN THE SAME SITUATION (bases loaded, game on the line) to pitch to the next hitter two weeks ago and you do it again today.

If Gonzalez would have made a move to the pen, that fly ball probably never would have happened.
 

Bucklin12

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All I'm going to say on that play is this:

If you're an outfielder trucking in, you're not looking at anything other than the ball. With the roof, the ball's tough to pick up, once Borchard got into the area, his head never came off the ball. If you watch the replay, Uggla clearly takes the ball out of Borchard's glove. If Borchard were to peel off there and the ball drops behind Uggla (because, let's be honest, he had to use all 5'5'' of him just to reach up for that one) it's all Borchard's fault.

Finally, if Borchard's in position, it's only rational for him to assume that the infielders knowing the outfield priority would peel off, Uggla's presence alone doesn't mean Borchard knows he's going to catch it, or should be expected to catch it.
Still, its your job as an outfielder, no matter how green you may be, to notice a guy frantically waving and calling you off.

Not to turn this into a pissing contest, but have you ever played baseball?

Catching a flyball is hardly as easy as it looks, and the process done is nothing like you'd expect. You run to the spot and then find the ball again. Once you're in the "spot" you're doing nothing but looking skyward. There's no recognition of what's going on around you at that point, it isn't a half and half looking around. It's no coincidence that so many collisions happen on 'tweener fly-balls like that. There is just an inexcusable lack of communication.

He's right. Even though he sounds like a jerk, he is right. I always had so much respect for my OF's when I played, because I knew I couldn't do it.
 

japerez86

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and mckeon is the same guy that got lucky enough to have Braden Looper pitch ugueth urbina out of a bases loaded jam. Braden Looper was a piece of crap... and Jack McKeon may have been the luckiest manager alive that year. He wasnt a managerial genius, evidenced by his mercenarial behavior since 1912.

So McKeon was lucky, but Beinfest was a genius.

(Sorry, I had to).
lol... I dont think Beinfest is a genius at all. I think he got incredibly lucky the year we won it all that everyone had a career year. He also got incredibly lucky to catch a crappy market last year by surprise with the dumping of every player. Dombrowski could not get MLB ready players initially when he initiated a firesale because everyone knew of the desperation.
Just look at the success of Admin's trades. The initial trades are the centerpieces and as the timetable progressed he got Travis Bowyer and a bag of peanuts for Luis Castillo.
He is a good gm. Do not get me wrong. I even stated that claiming Beinfest turns crap (closers on the tail end) into superstars a farce. He got lucky and Benitez had been a premier closer previously... but New York thinks a couple of blown saves is a disaster. Todd Jones replaced Beinfests previous closer (mota). And borowski... was not even that good.
 

Eddie Altamonte

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All I'm going to say on that play is this:

If you're an outfielder trucking in, you're not looking at anything other than the ball. With the roof, the ball's tough to pick up, once Borchard got into the area, his head never came off the ball. If you watch the replay, Uggla clearly takes the ball out of Borchard's glove. If Borchard were to peel off there and the ball drops behind Uggla (because, let's be honest, he had to use all 5'5'' of him just to reach up for that one) it's all Borchard's fault.

Finally, if Borchard's in position, it's only rational for him to assume that the infielders knowing the outfield priority would peel off, Uggla's presence alone doesn't mean Borchard knows he's going to catch it, or should be expected to catch it.
The Outfielder has better vision of the ball and coming in is easier to make the catch. It's the outfielders catch to make
 

japerez86

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All I'm going to say on that play is this:

If you're an outfielder trucking in, you're not looking at anything other than the ball. With the roof, the ball's tough to pick up, once Borchard got into the area, his head never came off the ball. If you watch the replay, Uggla clearly takes the ball out of Borchard's glove. If Borchard were to peel off there and the ball drops behind Uggla (because, let's be honest, he had to use all 5'5'' of him just to reach up for that one) it's all Borchard's fault.

Finally, if Borchard's in position, it's only rational for him to assume that the infielders knowing the outfield priority would peel off, Uggla's presence alone doesn't mean Borchard knows he's going to catch it, or should be expected to catch it.
Still, its your job as an outfielder, no matter how green you may be, to notice a guy frantically waving and calling you off.

Not to turn this into a pissing contest, but have you ever played baseball?

Catching a flyball is hardly as easy as it looks, and the process done is nothing like you'd expect. You run to the spot and then find the ball again. Once you're in the "spot" you're doing nothing but looking skyward. There's no recognition of what's going on around you at that point, it isn't a half and half looking around. It's no coincidence that so many collisions happen on 'tweener fly-balls like that. There is just an inexcusable lack of communication.
Not to change the subject, but as long as we're talking about inexcusable, its inexcusable for a manger to make the same mistake in a two week span. I don't care if this is his first year as a manager, you saw what happened when you leave a pitcher struggling to throw strikes in the game IN THE SAME SITUATION (bases loaded, game on the line) to pitch to the next hitter two weeks ago and you do it again today.

If Gonzalez would have made a move to the pen, that fly ball probably never would have happened.

There are people on this board suggesting Gregg being brought in initially was a bad call. There are people on this board that probably thought Lee Gardner coming in two weeks ago with the bases loaded was a joke. There are people on this board that do not understand that baseball might just be the hardest damn sport to predict. If Tank comes in and allows a hit... everyone still wants Gonzalez's head. If Gregg induces the pop up and then turns a double play, Gonzalez is lucky. You cannot have it both ways. Gonzalez had confidence that Gregg could get Ensberg out and he almost did. The credit will always go to the player and lots of the blame will go on the manager.
Managing is not easy and everyone on this board likes to make it seem like there is an obvious formula.

However, I do hate it when managers let pitchers (with the game on the line) get into jams. But, what if the manager allows Gregg to stay and he forces the hitter into a double play? Is Freddi a genius? Or a beneficiary of the game of inches?
 

Hammerhead

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All I'm going to say on that play is this:

If you're an outfielder trucking in, you're not looking at anything other than the ball. With the roof, the ball's tough to pick up, once Borchard got into the area, his head never came off the ball. If you watch the replay, Uggla clearly takes the ball out of Borchard's glove. If Borchard were to peel off there and the ball drops behind Uggla (because, let's be honest, he had to use all 5'5'' of him just to reach up for that one) it's all Borchard's fault.

Finally, if Borchard's in position, it's only rational for him to assume that the infielders knowing the outfield priority would peel off, Uggla's presence alone doesn't mean Borchard knows he's going to catch it, or should be expected to catch it.
Still, its your job as an outfielder, no matter how green you may be, to notice a guy frantically waving and calling you off.

Not to turn this into a pissing contest, but have you ever played baseball?

Catching a flyball is hardly as easy as it looks, and the process done is nothing like you'd expect. You run to the spot and then find the ball again. Once you're in the "spot" you're doing nothing but looking skyward. There's no recognition of what's going on around you at that point, it isn't a half and half looking around. It's no coincidence that so many collisions happen on 'tweener fly-balls like that. There is just an inexcusable lack of communication.
Not to change the subject, but as long as we're talking about inexcusable, its inexcusable for a manger to make the same mistake in a two week span. I don't care if this is his first year as a manager, you saw what happened when you leave a pitcher struggling to throw strikes in the game IN THE SAME SITUATION (bases loaded, game on the line) to pitch to the next hitter two weeks ago and you do it again today.

If Gonzalez would have made a move to the pen, that fly ball probably never would have happened.

There are people on this board suggesting Gregg being brought in initially was a bad call. There are people on this board that probably thought Lee Gardner coming in two weeks ago with the bases loaded was a joke. There are people on this board that do not understand that baseball might just be the hardest damn sport to predict. If Tank comes in and allows a hit... everyone still wants Gonzalez's head. If Gregg induces the pop up and then turns a double play, Gonzalez is lucky. You cannot have it both ways. Gonzalez had confidence that Gregg could get Ensberg out and he almost did. The credit will always go to the player and lots of the blame will go on the manager.
Managing is not easy and everyone on this board likes to make it seem like there is an obvious formula.

However, I do hate it when managers let pitchers (with the game on the line) get into jams. But, what if the manager allows Gregg to stay and he forces the hitter into a double play? Is Freddi a genius? Or a beneficiary of the game of inches?
DEFINITELY the latter. Leaving Gregg in when he saw another pitcher fail a few weeks before, even if Gregg winds up getting the job done, is simply moronic.
 

TSwift25

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All I'm going to say on that play is this:

If you're an outfielder trucking in, you're not looking at anything other than the ball. With the roof, the ball's tough to pick up, once Borchard got into the area, his head never came off the ball. If you watch the replay, Uggla clearly takes the ball out of Borchard's glove. If Borchard were to peel off there and the ball drops behind Uggla (because, let's be honest, he had to use all 5'5'' of him just to reach up for that one) it's all Borchard's fault.

Finally, if Borchard's in position, it's only rational for him to assume that the infielders knowing the outfield priority would peel off, Uggla's presence alone doesn't mean Borchard knows he's going to catch it, or should be expected to catch it.
Still, its your job as an outfielder, no matter how green you may be, to notice a guy frantically waving and calling you off.

Not to turn this into a pissing contest, but have you ever played baseball?

Catching a flyball is hardly as easy as it looks, and the process done is nothing like you'd expect. You run to the spot and then find the ball again. Once you're in the "spot" you're doing nothing but looking skyward. There's no recognition of what's going on around you at that point, it isn't a half and half looking around. It's no coincidence that so many collisions happen on 'tweener fly-balls like that. There is just an inexcusable lack of communication.
Not to change the subject, but as long as we're talking about inexcusable, its inexcusable for a manger to make the same mistake in a two week span. I don't care if this is his first year as a manager, you saw what happened when you leave a pitcher struggling to throw strikes in the game IN THE SAME SITUATION (bases loaded, game on the line) to pitch to the next hitter two weeks ago and you do it again today.

If Gonzalez would have made a move to the pen, that fly ball probably never would have happened.

There are people on this board suggesting Gregg being brought in initially was a bad call. There are people on this board that probably thought Lee Gardner coming in two weeks ago with the bases loaded was a joke. There are people on this board that do not understand that baseball might just be the hardest damn sport to predict. If Tank comes in and allows a hit... everyone still wants Gonzalez's head. If Gregg induces the pop up and then turns a double play, Gonzalez is lucky. You cannot have it both ways. Gonzalez had confidence that Gregg could get Ensberg out and he almost did. The credit will always go to the player and lots of the blame will go on the manager.
Managing is not easy and everyone on this board likes to make it seem like there is an obvious formula.

However, I do hate it when managers let pitchers (with the game on the line) get into jams. But, what if the manager allows Gregg to stay and he forces the hitter into a double play? Is Freddi a genius? Or a beneficiary of the game of inches?

Objectively, going with Gregg was the right call. The pitcher's spot had just come up, you had a guy out there that could give you 2 or 3 innings and the top of the lineup for Houston is predominantly right-handed.

However, sticking with Gregg when Tank was warming was a bad decision. For a short reliever like Tank, if he's warm, he might as well get in so there was no "preservation" bail out.

The manager's job is to put the team in the best situation to win, initially he did that with Gregg, but there was no need to stick with Gregg after showing that he (Gregg) could not help the team win.
 

EricWiener

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If you are the RF, call it. If somebody else calls it, and you don't, get the hell out of the way!
 

babaru

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ten walks is ten walks. I really dont think its all to difficult to see where the problem is. Sanchez, Lindstrom, and gregg gotta get there sh*t together. And while were at it so does Olsen. cuz regardless of the fact that Gonzalez didnt pull gregg, what difference does it make if the guy coming after him walks a few more... I think its that big of a problem with all our pitchers.
 

Iowa

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I'm still very positive.. We just need to get our sh*t together.
 

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