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Two teams the Marlins should look at for CF help

Ramp

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The Brewers are going to have Brady Clark(yea he's getting up there in age) and Laynce Nix on the pine, while new Nationals Manager Manny Acta has said Nook Loga will start in CF for the Nats this year meaning Ryan Church, Chris Snelling or Alex Escobar could/should be made available as well.

:shifty
 

Iowa

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Is the Mariners OF going to be Ibanez-Ichiro-Guillen? If so, could Reed be had?
 

MarlinsLou

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Is the Mariners OF going to be Ibanez-Ichiro-Guillen? If so, could Reed be had?
With Ichiro and Guillen coming off the books after this season, and just trading Snelling, very unlikely. Reed could be a starter next year if 1 of those two leave and if Adam Jones is not ready.

Clark is the best idea of those if Milwaukee picks up some salary ($3.8). We don't need to be dishing Petit or more to the Nationals for a stopgap year in CF.
 

Mauer7

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I'll take Clark. we need to get somone..
 

Hollyberry

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I'll take anyone. Well, not anyone. I'll take Brady Clark or Ryan Chrch. Was Laynce Nix hurt last year? I remember one year he was out for months.
 

CYmarlins

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Brady Clark or Ryan Church would be good for us. :)
 

Marlins2003

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I saw that yesterday about how the Brewers were going to use Bill Hall in center this year and the potential that offers in making players available for trade to upgrade the team, as well as Acta's pronouncements in DC. I think most of baseball wonders why the Natinals are so dogged in their determination to play Logan above all others but maybe by the end of spring training we'll understand better.

I like Church and suggested him as a candidate, even over some of the protests here referring to him as a retread and the like, but I wonder why when it appeared Church was being actively shopped you didn't hear the Marlins name in the mix. While it would be easy for someone to say we don't want to trade within our division (and I do think you can't use last season's moves as representative of anything other than what it was) but there has to be another way to skin that cat without offering up in exchange a starting pitcher who could help the Nationals rebuild over the next five years.

Personally I still like Willits (because of his oustanding play last season and high OBP, allowing Hanley to move down in the lineup) and Maier (or even Gathright for what would now be a sane price) because they are legitimate centerfielders where defense is not a question and it falls on Presley to get these kids to hit in the majors somewhere approaching what they did in the minors. Then there's Shane Costa whose hitting is better than his D but he can play the position at the major league level and has proven as much.

And as a plus they are all in the American League. If the Brewers' keep improving and we play up to our potential we could be battling them for a wildcard spot come September. But in the end if they wind up being our trading partner so be it. In general, I hope Beinfest goes younger than older.
 

Fishfan79

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What would it take to get Gwynn's kid from the brewers?
 

Marlins2003

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I don't know why we'd truly be interested in Clark considering his contract and the way he played the second half of last season. Good player but he seems to be in decline and the only way a trade would make sense (and I don't think it would from either a baseball standpoint or financially) is for the Marlins to give up a lesser ready but perhaps high profile prospect in exchange for the Brewer's taking most of the hit on the almost $4 million due in 2007. That isn't going to happen.

If I was going to trade away someone in our farm system who I highly valued for a CFer I'd make sure I was getting a player who had a chance to outperform his contract and projected to be around for years to come. Neither is the case with Clark.

Gwynn on the otherhand I've heard good and not so good about, but at least there the Marlins have a chance of developing a CFer of the future. His OBP concerns me though but by the end of next season alot of questions about him will probably be answered.
 

MarlinsLou

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there is a rumor that the Drays will trade Dukes to Toronto, not sure why toronto wants another OF. Seems sorta strange but if that happens removes another option for us.

I would love Dukes down here.

http://www.draysbay.com/story/2007/1/11/215035/729
They probably have a deal with Alex Rios already set up if they are looking for an additional OF. They'd more then survive with Wells, Lind, R. Johnson, and Dukes in the OF. Marcum is their projected 5th SP, so if he's rumored to be in that deal they have to have some sort of pitching deal set up cause I can't imagine them giving it to McGowan/Downs. Doesn't really surprise me.
 

The_Godfather

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there is a rumor that the Drays will trade Dukes to Toronto, not sure why toronto wants another OF. Seems sorta strange but if that happens removes another option for us.

I would love Dukes down here.

http://www.draysbay.com/story/2007/1/11/215035/729
They probably have a deal with Alex Rios already set up if they are looking for an additional OF. They'd more then survive with Wells, Lind, R. Johnson, and Dukes in the OF. Marcum is their projected 5th SP, so if he's rumored to be in that deal they have to have some sort of pitching deal set up cause I can't imagine them giving it to McGowan/Downs. Doesn't really surprise me.


Damnit I want Rios. Make it happen Beinfest, he would be a perfect fit.
 

Fishfan79

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there is a rumor that the Drays will trade Dukes to Toronto, not sure why toronto wants another OF. Seems sorta strange but if that happens removes another option for us.

I would love Dukes down here.

http://www.draysbay.com/story/2007/1/11/215035/729
They probably have a deal with Alex Rios already set up if they are looking for an additional OF. They'd more then survive with Wells, Lind, R. Johnson, and Dukes in the OF. Marcum is their projected 5th SP, so if he's rumored to be in that deal they have to have some sort of pitching deal set up cause I can't imagine them giving it to McGowan/Downs. Doesn't really surprise me.


Damnit I want Rios. Make it happen Beinfest, he would be a perfect fit.

are you willing to give up one of

willis, johnson, olsen, sanchez to get him?
 

The_Godfather

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there is a rumor that the Drays will trade Dukes to Toronto, not sure why toronto wants another OF. Seems sorta strange but if that happens removes another option for us.

I would love Dukes down here.

http://www.draysbay.com/story/2007/1/11/215035/729
They probably have a deal with Alex Rios already set up if they are looking for an additional OF. They'd more then survive with Wells, Lind, R. Johnson, and Dukes in the OF. Marcum is their projected 5th SP, so if he's rumored to be in that deal they have to have some sort of pitching deal set up cause I can't imagine them giving it to McGowan/Downs. Doesn't really surprise me.


Damnit I want Rios. Make it happen Beinfest, he would be a perfect fit.

are you willing to give up one of

willis, johnson, olsen, sanchez to get him?


Yes. Any one of them. If it was Dontrelle though, I'd expect Rios + a prospect back.
 

MarlinsLou

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are you willing to give up one of

willis, johnson, olsen, sanchez to get him?
I'd imagine they would take Nolasco/Gaby Hernandez or West, plus a throw in Single A RP arm (Delgado, Doolittle, etc). They could still slot Nolasco into the 5 or top setup right now, have one of our most progressed pitching prospect who could take over a rotation spot in 1-2 years, plus something else in our top 15-25 range of prospects which really doesn't hurt us but just sweetens the deal for them with a potential bullpen arm. The Jays have A LOT of salary committed right now so getting an abundance of young pitchers might be a better idea then say, just getting Johnson, or, especially getting Jake Westbrook (or some other rumored to be moved SP) and having to deal with his FA in a year. Point is, I think we could preserve Olsen/Anibal/JJ, get the CF with our depth, and then trade Dontrelle after 2007 to fix whatever holes in the organization show themselves after this season. My guess would be a young catcher and adding to the fireballing young P stockpile. Likewise and a tangent, TB would be crazy not to take Nolasco + any of our top 5 SP prospects + a throw in single a bullpen arm for Rocco. We have options, but it appears Beinfest likes Reggie, Reed, Alex Sanchez, Amezaga and Ross to play CF and have nothing coming up the pipeline versus Mitre, or Petit, or J. Garcia, to combine for 30 starts just in 2007, before being replaced by superior Volstad type options that are coming up the pipeline. Stupid.

I see Rios as $23ish million over 4 years through arby ($2.5, $4.5, $7, $9+). That's not a strain on our finances, he is certainly moveable if he's deemed to expensive in 2 seasons. There is really little risk involved with someone like him. He's probably worth acquiring even if it's Johnson, but again, we have the firepower to go get him without it if we're willing to dip into the minor league depth. Toronto is certainly a contender, but they like to stockpile prospects as much as anyone. If we give them something for the MLB club, and arms to take over in 08, it's a no brainer for them if they are able to acquire Dukes with the rumored Marcum/other dude trade. That's a lot of speculation, but w/e. I really like Rios. He saves this offseason, and completes our starting lineup with awesome and projectable hitters (besides a young catcher) for at least 3 seasons.
 

Marlins2003

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Rios won't be worth (for all intents and purposes) any more in the 2007 off-season than he is now. In fact since he'll be entering his second arbitration year unless he puts up Herculean numbers a case could be made he may be worth less (talking trade value not what he's being paid or his stature as a ballplayer).

Conversely, if our starting rotation performed no better than they did in 2006, as a group they would be worth significantly more than they are now having three winning pitchers and two with .500 records and a second year of proven major league experience under their belts for the four rookies of the 2006 season.

The wise move is to wait. Trading starting pitching at 20-30-40 cents on the dollar would be foolhardy (note: I'm not calling anyone a fool, it's a figure of speech). Yes, everyone wants a centerfielder but not at the cost of an ultra low cost, quality starting pitcher who is very likely to outperform his contract.
 

MarlinsLou

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Rios won't be worth (for all intents and purposes) any more in the 2007 off-season than he is now. In fact since he'll be entering his second arbitration year unless he puts up Herculean numbers a case could be made he may be worth less (talking trade value not what he's being paid or his stature as a ballplayer).

Conversely, if our starting rotation performed no better than they did in 2006, as a group they would be worth significantly more than they are now having three winning pitchers and two with .500 records and a second year of proven major league experience under their belts for the four rookies of the 2006 season.

The wise move is to wait. Trading starting pitching at 20-30-40 cents on the dollar would be foolhardy (note: I'm not calling anyone a fool, it's a figure of speech). Yes, everyone wants a centerfielder but not at the cost of an ultra low cost, quality starting pitcher who is very likely to outperform his contract.
The wise move for this franchise is to get a real CF and believe in the enormous amount of pitching talent we've accumulated. Not keep waiting and waiting and waiting for a Scott Kazmir trade to magically appear. You need to be proactive to get better. Gregg, Boone, and a slew of nice AA/AAA bullpen arms aren't catapulting this team drastically above .500 (if that at all), let alone as a real contender. Alex Rios changes that. He's a difference maker in 600+ plate appearances. He out OPS'd everyone on the Marlins besides Cabrera last year, is going to get better (is young, and always highly regarded), and would be the best defensive player on team. And that's ignoring the fact he fills a glaring position of need in the organization long term, and would be under control for 4 seasons. Rios would easily outperform his contracts just as much as the Marlins pitchers, and likewise will increase in value because he's only going to become more and more productive. Saying he's 20-40 cents on the dollar is laughable. He's not Taveras, Sullivan, Duffy, etc.

I don't mind "buying extremely low" on clark, or church, or one of the numerous Willits level guys you love cause most of them are good ideas for stopgaps, but in the long term scheme of things, we need a legit CF. All these guys we throw around are bench types and should only be used sparingly. I'd rather get it done right the first trade, and fix the position for years.
 

Marlins2003

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Thanks Lou for the lecture. Wrong again as usual, but predictable as hell.

And can you possibly post with putting words in my mouth? Let me rephrase, because I'm not really asking a question, even rhetorically.

Stop putting words in my mouth and creating false arguments. :thumbdown
 

Fishfan79

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Rios won't be worth (for all intents and purposes) any more in the 2007 off-season than he is now. In fact since he'll be entering his second arbitration year unless he puts up Herculean numbers a case could be made he may be worth less (talking trade value not what he's being paid or his stature as a ballplayer).

Conversely, if our starting rotation performed no better than they did in 2006, as a group they would be worth significantly more than they are now having three winning pitchers and two with .500 records and a second year of proven major league experience under their belts for the four rookies of the 2006 season.

The wise move is to wait. Trading starting pitching at 20-30-40 cents on the dollar would be foolhardy (note: I'm not calling anyone a fool, it's a figure of speech). Yes, everyone wants a centerfielder but not at the cost of an ultra low cost, quality starting pitcher who is very likely to outperform his contract.
The wise move for this franchise is to get a real CF and believe in the enormous amount of pitching talent we've accumulated. Not keep waiting and waiting and waiting for a Scott Kazmir trade to magically appear. You need to be proactive to get better. Gregg, Boone, and a slew of nice AA/AAA bullpen arms aren't catapulting this team drastically above .500 (if that at all), let alone as a real contender. Alex Rios changes that. He's a difference maker in 600+ plate appearances. He out OPS'd everyone on the Marlins besides Cabrera last year, is going to get better (is young, and always highly regarded), and would be the best defensive player on team. And that's ignoring the fact he fills a glaring position of need in the organization long term, and would be under control for 4 seasons. Rios would easily outperform his contracts just as much as the Marlins pitchers, and likewise will increase in value because he's only going to become more and more productive. Saying he's 20-40 cents on the dollar is laughable. He's not Taveras, Sullivan, Duffy, etc.

I don't mind "buying extremely low" on clark, or church, or one of the numerous Willits level guys you love cause most of them are good ideas for stopgaps, but in the long term scheme of things, we need a legit CF. All these guys we throw around are bench types and should only be used sparingly. I'd rather get it done right the first trade, and fix the position for years.


I agree with you about rios and I would love to be able to get him. I just have to believe if this was indeed a viable option though Admin beinfest would of looked ino it. But it seems he has either found they want more then we want to give or value it differently perhaps. I like Rios and I think he could become an amazing player forus. He would be a great number 3 hitter in our lineup with his ability for all 5 tools.
 

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