goldberg criticizing the marlins

[Marlins2003]

Mr. FilletO'Fish good buddy you tell me what the number is and I'll accept it. let's say they only lose $70 million in five years not $100 million. Does that do it for you? Does it make the point to you that even if they lost $60 million and MLB forgave $30 million, THEY'D STILL HAVE LOST 30 MILLION FREAKIN' DOLLARS ALL IN THE NAME OF SAVING BASEBALL IN SOUTH FLORIDA FOR YOU AND ME!!!!!

 

NO, it doesn't do it for me. Franchise profitability at the ownership level cannot be determined by revenue or annual net operating profit/loss.

 

Why?

 

Because owners buy teams, lose an additional 50 percent in operating loses over the term of their ownership, then sell the franchise for 2 to 10 times of what they paid originally.

 

SO what, Loria loses 30 MILLION FREAKIN dollars. Then he either sells at a profit several multiples higher than his operating loss, or moves to a new city, which boosts the valuation of the franchise many times more than the 30 million he lost.

 

You have to look at operating losses of a baseball team like capital improvments on your home. If you buy a house for 100K, then sell it for 300K 5 years later, do you b***h and moan because you had to dump 25K into a new roof a year or two after you bought it?

 

It's all about capital appreciation.

 

And all of this is, of course, you believe that they are providing accurate revenue numbers in the first place.

To who? Come on Fishiepoo, be serious. This isn;t the go-go nineties where the Giants take in $50 million naming rights and franchises are increasing in value. There's more sellers than buyers and even you (forgive the cheapshot will ya it's late) know what happens in a buyer's market.

 

If MLB can't sell the Expos how do you expect the Marlins to sell their franchise at a profit that would return their inintial investment plus their losses?

 

It isn't going to happen. What Hank is talking about is someone buying the Marlins at a distress price, meaning Loria would lose tens of millions of dollars.

[minus]

Mr. FilletO'Fish good buddy you tell me what the number is and I'll accept it. let's say they only lose $70 million in five years not $100 million. Does that do it for you? Does it make the point to you that even if they lost $60 million and MLB forgave $30 million, THEY'D STILL HAVE LOST 30 MILLION FREAKIN' DOLLARS ALL IN THE NAME OF SAVING BASEBALL IN SOUTH FLORIDA FOR YOU AND ME!!!!!

 

NO, it doesn't do it for me. Franchise profitability at the ownership level cannot be determined by revenue or annual net operating profit/loss.

 

Why?

 

Because owners buy teams, lose an additional 50 percent in operating loses over the term of their ownership, then sell the franchise for 2 to 10 times of what they paid originally.

 

SO what, Loria loses 30 MILLION FREAKIN dollars. Then he either sells at a profit several multiples higher than his operating loss, or moves to a new city, which boosts the valuation of the franchise many times more than the 30 million he lost.

 

You have to look at operating losses of a baseball team like capital improvments on your home. If you buy a house for 100K, then sell it for 300K 5 years later, do you b***h and moan because you had to dump 25K into a new roof a year or two after you bought it?

 

It's all about capital appreciation.

 

And all of this is, of course, you believe that they are providing accurate revenue numbers in the first place.

To who? Come on Fishiepoo, be serious. This isn;t the go-go nineties where the Giants take in $50 million naming rights and franchises are increasing in value. There's more sellers than buyers and even you (forgive the cheapshot will ya it's late) know what happens in a buyer's market.

 

If MLB can't sell the Expos how do you expect the Marlins to sell their franchise at a profit that would return their inintial investment plus their losses?

 

It isn't going to happen. What Hank is talking about is someone buying the Marlins at a distress price, meaning Loria would lose tens of millions of dollars. BTW

 

I believe Hank Said Loria will be the taking team elsewhere not selling.

[Marlins2003]

You don't think Wayne is invloved in trying to keep the Marlins from owning their own stadium? lololololol

He's gone on record publicly on several occasions stating that he doesn't want them there. He doesn't realize enough of a profit to justify the extra work.

 

Unless this is all part of a grand conspiracy.

Come on fish, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

The last thing in the world Wayne wants is for the Marlins to stay in South Florida with their own competitive venue.

 

He wants a) for them to leave town or b) stay where they are.

 

Probably the only guy who made money on opening day was Huizenga. Doesn't make enough to make it worth while? Give me a freakin' break !!!! That's why he jacked up parking again. The Dolphins are in real trouble without the Marlins revenue. Who do you think is really paying his $84 million in bonds? Geez.

[Fish Fillet]

Mr. FilletO'Fish good buddy you tell me what the number is and I'll accept it. let's say they only lose $70 million in five years not $100 million. Does that do it for you? Does it make the point to you that even if they lost $60 million and MLB forgave $30 million, THEY'D STILL HAVE LOST 30 MILLION FREAKIN' DOLLARS ALL IN THE NAME OF SAVING BASEBALL IN SOUTH FLORIDA FOR YOU AND ME!!!!!

 

NO, it doesn't do it for me. Franchise profitability at the ownership level cannot be determined by revenue or annual net operating profit/loss.

 

Why?

 

Because owners buy teams, lose an additional 50 percent in operating loses over the term of their ownership, then sell the franchise for 2 to 10 times of what they paid originally.

 

SO what, Loria loses 30 MILLION FREAKIN dollars. Then he either sells at a profit several multiples higher than his operating loss, or moves to a new city, which boosts the valuation of the franchise many times more than the 30 million he lost.

 

You have to look at operating losses of a baseball team like capital improvments on your home. If you buy a house for 100K, then sell it for 300K 5 years later, do you b***h and moan because you had to dump 25K into a new roof a year or two after you bought it?

 

It's all about capital appreciation.

 

And all of this is, of course, you believe that they are providing accurate revenue numbers in the first place.

To who? Come on Fishiepoo, be serious. This isn;t the go-go nineties where the Giants take in $50 million naming rights and franchises are increasing in value. There's more sellers than buyers and even you (forgive the cheapshot will ya it's late) know what happens in a buyer's market.

 

If MLB can't sell the Expos how do you expect the Marlins to sell their franchise at a profit that would return their inintial investment plus their losses?

 

It isn't going to happen. What Hank is talking about is someone buying the Marlins at a distress price, meaning Loria would lose tens of millions of dollars. Loria will never, ever have to sell at a distressed price. The other owners in MLB would never let it happen.

 

MLB would subsidize the franchise until the point where the franchise was valued at a price commensurate with the other teams in the league.

 

Owners aren't stupid. They are not going to cut off their nose despite their face. Selling any franchise at far below market value significantly devalues every MLB team.

[Marlins2003]

Mr. FilletO'Fish good buddy you tell me what the number is and I'll accept it. let's say they only lose $70 million in five years not $100 million. Does that do it for you? Does it make the point to you that even if they lost $60 million and MLB forgave $30 million, THEY'D STILL HAVE LOST 30 MILLION FREAKIN' DOLLARS ALL IN THE NAME OF SAVING BASEBALL IN SOUTH FLORIDA FOR YOU AND ME!!!!!

 

NO, it doesn't do it for me. Franchise profitability at the ownership level cannot be determined by revenue or annual net operating profit/loss.

 

Why?

 

Because owners buy teams, lose an additional 50 percent in operating loses over the term of their ownership, then sell the franchise for 2 to 10 times of what they paid originally.

 

SO what, Loria loses 30 MILLION FREAKIN dollars. Then he either sells at a profit several multiples higher than his operating loss, or moves to a new city, which boosts the valuation of the franchise many times more than the 30 million he lost.

 

You have to look at operating losses of a baseball team like capital improvments on your home. If you buy a house for 100K, then sell it for 300K 5 years later, do you b***h and moan because you had to dump 25K into a new roof a year or two after you bought it?

 

It's all about capital appreciation.

 

And all of this is, of course, you believe that they are providing accurate revenue numbers in the first place.

To who? Come on Fishiepoo, be serious. This isn;t the go-go nineties where the Giants take in $50 million naming rights and franchises are increasing in value. There's more sellers than buyers and even you (forgive the cheapshot will ya it's late) know what happens in a buyer's market.

 

If MLB can't sell the Expos how do you expect the Marlins to sell their franchise at a profit that would return their inintial investment plus their losses?

 

It isn't going to happen. What Hank is talking about is someone buying the Marlins at a distress price, meaning Loria would lose tens of millions of dollars. BTW

 

I believe Hank Said Loria will be the taking team elsewhere not selling.

Well I guess that's it, if Hank said it it must be true.

 

You really believe that? This is a carefully thought out media blitz to destroy the Marlins chances of getting anew stadium. The guys on the otherside will do anything to prevent it.

 

I can't get over the fact you would believe a single word that came out of that's sociopath's mouth.

[minus]

MLB would subsidize the franchise until the point where the franchise was valued at a price commensurate with the other teams in the league.

You making alot sense to me.

[Marlins2003]

"Loria will never, ever have to sell at a distressed price. The other owners in MLB would never let it happen."

 

 

That's what already happened in Montreal.

[Fish Fillet]

"Loria will never, ever have to sell at a distressed price. The other owners in MLB would never let it happen."

 

 

That's what already happened in Montreal.

No, it isn't. MLB took over the Spos and are currently subsidizing the franchise until a time when a market can bear a price they think is fair.

 

As for Loria, I don't think anyone ever doubted that he got a sweetheart deal to leave Canada. He gets out of a situation where his only option is contraction, and into a situation where he is much more apt to suceed, but if he doesn't MLB gives him a golden parachute for the effort anyway.

[Marlins2003]

"Loria will never, ever have to sell at a distressed price. The other owners in MLB would never let it happen."

 

 

That's what already happened in Montreal.

No, it isn't. MLB took over the Spos and are currently subsidizing the franchise until a time when a market can bear a price they think is fair.

 

As for Loria, I don't think anyone ever doubted that he got a sweetheart deal to leave Canada. He gets out of a situation where his only option is contraction, and into a situation where he is much more apt to suceed, but if he doesn't MLB gives him a golden parachute for the effort anyway.

I'm doing this from memory but they gave Loria (and the minority shareholders) $156 million for the Expos. He gave that to Henry. If the deal for the stadium falls through thats another $30 million and if i remember correctly its costing MLB $2 million per team to run the Expos per year, so that's 28 teams times 2 million or $56 million per year they're losing in montreal for what has it been three years (including 2004) so thats another $150 million.

 

when exactly do you think the Expos will be worth $300-330 million?

 

and every year they don't sell it they lose more money.

 

MLB has to keep the Expos going because of the collective bargaining agreement and the guarantee on no contraction through 2006, that's why the Expos still exist.

[Fish Fillet]

I give up, you win. But back to my original point.... Quoting numbers provided by the MLB is like buying canned farts to get rid of gas.

 

Enough for me, though. Good discussion either way.

 

Happy B-Day 2003......

[Hotcorner]

Owners aren't stupid. They are not going to cut off their nose despite their face.

arrrrgh!!!!!

 

it's cut off your nose TO SPITE your face, not despite your face!!!!!!

:banghead

(sorry, it's my duty in life to fix that one phrase, if nothing else.)

 

oh & happy Bday also Marlins2003.

[Marlins2003]

Owners aren't stupid. They are not going to cut off their nose despite their face.

arrrrgh!!!!!

 

it's cut off your nose TO SPITE your face, not despite your face!!!!!!

:banghead

lolololol :thumbup

[Marlins2003]

thank you fishiepoo.

[CapeFish]

Let us do some math shall we.

 

Loria owes $30 million to the MLB owners.

He loses $20 million a year so that means that if this doesn't get done because he doesn't want it too he just lost $60 million if he moves or folds the team after the 2006 season. Doesn't make sense to lose $60 million to save $30 million.

[djm305]

Look guys, I am no economics major but I do know one thing. It appears to me that Loria loves baseball and he loves winning. I honestly think he truly wants to keep baseball here and he wants to keep winning. But he is trying to make it so that he can make money as well. I beleive he truly wants to get a stadium deal done because in the long run the love for the game is driving him and not just dollars and cents. Don't get me wrong I am not nieve and I do not think that money is not playing a part, but it is not just money and that is what HANK is trying to make it seem like. I have faith in Loria because of what he gave us in 2003 and I will be forever grateful for it. Lets not be so quick to jump on Mr. Loria and lets give him the benefit of the doubt. I do not want to go through another firesale, nor do I think Loria wants to do another firesale. I think he loves winning to much to do that, he is going to do whatever it takes to get this done right you will see. I mean look at what he has put into this team already, if you guys can't see that he really loves basbeall and competing than you are all blind.

 

Edit: Ohhh and Happy Birthday Marlins2003! wish you the best and a Marlins victory today for you!

[Marlins2003]

Ohhh and Happy Birthday Marlins2003! wish you the best and a Marlins victory today for you!

 

Thanks DJM305 , some friends of mine bought me two founders club seats for tonight's game. Woo hoo I can hardly wait!

[PBMarlin]

Ohhh and Happy Birthday Marlins2003! wish you the best and a Marlins victory today for you!

 

Thanks DJM305 , some friends of mine bought me two founders club seats for tonight's game. Woo hoo I can hardly wait! Happy Birthday 2003. Are you going to bring your son with you tonight?

[gobucks]

This is a pretty long topic that I have missed.

 

1- Loria and the Marlin ownership group is not perfect. This is a huge transaction for them. (the stadium deal)

 

2- Clearly somebody is sending Hank information with a purpose. I think it is less likely it is someone looking to pick up the team cheap. it is probably Diaz looking to polish his reputation or Wayne's people.

 

3- THERE IS NO PLACE FOR THE MARLINS TO MOVE TO! If there were so many communities looking to build a stadium for MLB why are the Expos still in Montreal? The D.C. Area is the most probable site and the Expos are earmarked for D.C.

 

4- It is difficult to design a stadium w/o a site but they could use preliminary drawings. I happen to know that plans already exist for a proposed stadium on the river from when Henry owned the team. I actually have seen this design and it is awesome. The architect has tried to work with this ownership group and has promoted other sites to the county prior to bringing them to the Marlins.

 

5- This is very political.

 

6- This community is unable to seperate previous ownership groups from this one.

 

7- Wayne throws info out thinking that the majority of people will buy it without question even though it is ridiculous. (Avg Stadium lease and "I want the Marlins to get a stadium" comments)

[Guest Moneyball]

i think huzinga is going to get involved in the stadium issue. because since he knows they are leaving he will lose the income. so he will probably by some % of the yeam and help build the stadium to make $$$

[Guest Moneyball]

i think the 7 news report (TV) and the goldberg rant (radio) were very well plannned in advance, during the week of opening week so all the publicity wouldn't be good about the marlins. It is somebody who doesn't want a stadium because they won't make money off of it. 1) it could be a city of miami beach official. 2) huzienga (unlikely because he could just buy some % of the franchise. but whoever it is they have both 3 of the 4 types of media to do it. TV,Radio,Internet (us freaking out). the next thing they would target should be the newspaper so maybe in the next couple of days we'll read something in the newspaper. if loria does want to move the team there will be litigation from someone fans-city-state. i wonder if hank sopher wants to help the marlins?

[djm305]

You know I think back now and this is the 3rd owner that has tried to get a stadium in Miami and still the city is resisting. I don't understand why in the hell Miami agreed to have a baseball team if they are not willing to build a ballpark. It makes no sense to me. I mean here we have a TEAM that has won 2 Championships in 10 years and has done more for Sports in SouthFLA than any other team in the the last 30 years. The city should be embrassing them with open arms. But hey this is Miami and if the politicians can't make a buck on something than it has no value to them. This is a prime example of why I have always hated politics and indicitive of the slime Miami produces. This is not a shot at all the people in Miami but let's face it, Miami produces some of the slimmiest politicians I have ever heard of.

 

I get tired of reading all this stadium nonsense. I don't know that I could take another firesale, if it happens, basbeall may loose me and everyone else in SouthFLA. I hope Loria is smart enough to figure this out and do what's best for the team.

[Marlins2003]

You have to separate the county from the city.

 

The city, to be fair, has gone through a tremendous economic travail, being on the verge of bankruptcy, the scandals etc. The county has not had the number of problems to confront and to its credit has stepped up.

 

I don't think the city will eventually be a player, although I have been told otherwise and my sources have been uncanningly accurate. Everyone understands why the OB plan is a non-starter, I can't imagine another better situated piece of property (not to say that the OB was ever a good site) within the city confines that would meet the criteria for a ballpark unless you want to go out towards the airport, and there you run into national security issues. I think the days of plunking down a stadium next to an airport are over.

[SoFlaFish]

You know I think back now and this is the 3rd owner that has tried to get a stadium in Miami and still the city is resisting. I don't understand why in the hell Miami agreed to have a baseball team if they are not willing to build a ballpark. It makes no sense to me. I mean here we have a TEAM that has won 2 Championships in 10 years and has done more for Sports in SouthFLA than any other team in the the last 30 years. The city should be embrassing them with open arms. But hey this is Miami and if the politicians can't make a buck on something than it has no value to them. This is a prime example of why I have always hated politics and indicitive of the slime Miami produces. This is not a shot at all the people in Miami but let's face it, Miami produces some of the slimmiest politicians I have ever heard of.

 

I get tired of reading all this stadium nonsense. I don't know that I could take another firesale, if it happens, basbeall may loose me and everyone else in SouthFLA. I hope Loria is smart enough to figure this out and do what's best for the team.

I'm sorry, but you can't heap this all on the City of Miami. For starters, as Marlins2003 said, the City of Miami and Miami-Dade County are two separate entities. Secondly, back in 1991, the City of Miami was not the active party in leading the charge to bring baseball here. As a matter of fact, it was Huizenga's group "South Florida Baseball" that was the lead group and we all know that Huizenga hates everything to do with Dade County.

 

The City of Miami is actually quite small and has a minimal tax base. The City's population is only around 370,000. Most of their property tax revenue is derived from it's only two "wealthy" neighborhoods (Brickell/Roads & Coconut Grove). The rest of Miami is the poorest city in the United States, so it is unreasonable to expect this City just to open its coffers for a baseball stadium.

 

Also, I don't see Fort Lauderdale, Hollywood, Broward County, Plantation, or other cities stepping up to the plate. Are their politicians just as shady? The City of Fort Lauderdale right now is in just a dire strait financially as the City of Miami was a few years ago!

 

Your comments were too generalized. Sometimes I'm convinced that discussing the economics of baseball on this message board is too complex for most of you here.

[Guest Moneyball]

damn the economics of baseball

[djm305]

You know I think back now and this is the 3rd owner that has tried to get a stadium in Miami and still the city is resisting. I don't understand why in the hell Miami agreed to have a baseball team if they are not willing to build a ballpark. It makes no sense to me. I mean here we have a TEAM that has won 2 Championships in 10 years and has done more for Sports in SouthFLA than any other team in the the last 30 years. The city should be embrassing them with open arms. But hey this is Miami and if the politicians can't make a buck on something than it has no value to them. This is a prime example of why I have always hated politics and indicitive of the slime Miami produces. This is not a shot at all the people in Miami but let's face it, Miami produces some of the slimmiest politicians I have ever heard of.

 

I get tired of reading all this stadium nonsense. I don't know that I could take another firesale, if it happens, basbeall may loose me and everyone else in SouthFLA. I hope Loria is smart enough to figure this out and do what's best for the team.

I'm sorry, but you can't heap this all on the City of Miami. For starters, as Marlins2003 said, the City of Miami and Miami-Dade County are two separate entities. Secondly, back in 1991, the City of Miami was not the active party in leading the charge to bring baseball here. As a matter of fact, it was Huizenga's group "South Florida Baseball" that was the lead group and we all know that Huizenga hates everything to do with Dade County.

 

The City of Miami is actually quite small and has a minimal tax base. The City's population is only around 370,000. Most of their property tax revenue is derived from it's only two "wealthy" neighborhoods (Brickell/Roads & Coconut Grove). The rest of Miami is the poorest city in the United States, so it is unreasonable to expect this City just to open its coffers for a baseball stadium.

 

Also, I don't see Fort Lauderdale, Hollywood, Broward County, Plantation, or other cities stepping up to the plate. Are their politicians just as shady? The City of Fort Lauderdale right now is in just a dire strait financially as the City of Miami was a few years ago!

 

Your comments were too generalized. Sometimes I'm convinced that discussing the economics of baseball on this message board is too complex for most of you here. Well obviously, I will admit that I know nothing about politics and economics. I know less about the economics of the city and state. I was just commenting in general about SouthFLA, I did not mean to imply the CITY OF MIAMI, but rather whomever was responsible for bringing baseball here. Anyhow, I understand what you guys are saying and good explainations from people like you are all I have to help me understand what is going on.