I guess it wasn't just humiliation...In our attempts to make Iraqis and Arabs in general seem less than human to ease the public conscience...I'd say this is a setback.

 

 

Defense secretary outlines panel to probe prisoner abuse

Saturday, May 8, 2004 Posted: 8:47 AM EDT (1247 GMT)

 

 

 

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld testifies Friday before the Senate Armed Services Committee.

ON CNN TV

 

 

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld revealed Friday that videos and "a lot more pictures" exist of the abuse of Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib prison.

 

"If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse," Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee. "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe."

 

The embattled defense secretary fielded sharp and skeptical questions from lawmakers as he testified about the growing prisoner abuse scandal. (Full story)

 

A military report about that abuse describes detainees being threatened, sodomized with a chemical light and forced into sexually humiliating poses.

 

Charges have been brought against seven service members, and investigations into events at the prison continue.

 

Military investigators have looked into -- or are continuing to investigate -- 35 cases of alleged abuse or deaths of prisoners in detention facilities in the Central Command theater, according to Army Secretary Les Brownlee. Two of those cases were deemed homicides, he said.

 

"The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience," Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee.

 

"We're talking about rape and murder -- and some very serious charges."

 

Republican Sen. John Warner of Virginia, the chairman of the committee, told reporters that his committee had not seen any evidence to substantiate Graham's claim, though he acknowledged he was aware of the allegations.

 

"There's been some allegations to that effect, but we have no detailed information," Warner said. "We will continue to pursue the evidence, wherever it is, and to try to bring it to the public's attention, so long as we're not jeopardizing in any way the judicial system."

 

A report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba on the abuse at the prison outside Baghdad says videotapes and photographs show naked detainees, and that groups of men were forced to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped.

 

Taguba also found evidence of a "male MP guard having sex with a female detainee."

 

In another incident, Taguba found that "I am a rapest" [sic] was written on the "leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year-old fellow detainee." The older detainee was then photographed naked.

 

Rumsfeld told Congress the unrevealed photos and videos contain acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman."

 

Rumsfeld also announced three of the four people who will sit on an independent panel to probe the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. forces.

 

Rumsfeld said James Schlessinger, a former defense secretary under President Nixon, had agreed to participate in the investigation, as did former Rep. Tillie Fowler, a Florida Republican, and Gen. Chuck Horner, a retired Air Force general.

 

Fowler also served on the independent panel that investigated the sexual abuse scandal at the Air Force Academy last year. That panel was also appointed by Rumsfeld.

 

Rumsfeld said he is still talking to the fourth person he would like to have participate, but that person is trying to decide if he has enough time to devote to the probe.

Donald likes it rough,

 

To be serious, this has turned into something that it never should of been. What Rummy did showed complete lack of leadership and what I find most alarming is the fact that he didn't even tell Bush about what was going on.

 

For him to not step in and then not report it to those who should have known, showed nothing but complete lack of judgement.

 

He has to go and there's no question about it. What he did is going to hurt us for years to come.

Tenet should be given the boot as well.

i swear if only NCO's get reprimanded for this crap.....

 

 

 

i am going to go off.

Rumsfeld screwed up. Plain and simple. This is coming from a staunch Republican.

 

Should he resign? If we weren't in the middle of a colossal mess, I'd say yes. But the colossal mess is what brought about the question of him resigning. Damn. :blink:

 

I don't give a hoot what happens to Iraq anymore. I'm glad Saddam is gone and I'm glad that President Bush had the cajones to make an unpopular decision and free the Iraqis. But it's obvious that they don't believe in our cause. Especially not now.

 

Let them build their own damn country. Bring our boys home.

except you cant really leave iraq now....

 

 

or it will be total chaos.

 

 

 

this is what happens when you screw up something you really had no business doing in the first place.

except you cant really leave iraq now....

 

 

or it will be total chaos.

 

 

 

this is what happens when you screw up something you really had no business doing in the first place.

Yeah, it's almost like they had no plan going into this operation BUT bombing the hell out of them.

 

Granted, I'll bet all the precious oil tankards are in order.

 

Best part is seeing Rumsfeld weep like a baby on tv. I don't know if he was crying because of the atrocities or because he ruined his own career and it's pretty much over pretty soon.

except you cant really leave iraq now....

 

 

or it will be total chaos.

 

 

 

this is what happens when you screw up something you really had no business doing in the first place.

how dare you use logic! :lol

except you cant really leave iraq now....

 

 

or it will be total chaos.

 

 

 

this is what happens when you screw up something you really had no business doing in the first place.

Yeah, it's almost like they had no plan going into this operation BUT bombing the hell out of them.

 

Granted, I'll bet all the precious oil tankards are in order.

 

Best part is seeing Rumsfeld weep like a baby on tv. I don't know if he was crying because of the atrocities or because he ruined his own career and it's pretty much over pretty soon. Yep, as you can see, we're drilling the Iraqi oil right now, and our gas prices are going way down.

 

That's probably the dumbest assumption I've ever heard about the war in Iraq. If you believe that, you've been watching WAY too much TV.

this is what happens when you screw up something you really had no business doing in the first place.

amen

Guys, this is huge, absolutely gigantic. Heads are going to roll mark my words.

 

We haven't seen the worse of it yet. Videos and pictures of sodomizing, beatings, possibly killings...this is absolutely disgusting. And this isn't the work of some individual resevists, they were following orders. Some generals are getting involved...there has been a cover up in America and great britain since february. The question now is how far up this goes. Guys, this is going to kill us, this is huge.

 

This is absolutely disgusting, my words cannot explain the extent. This is absolutely terrible.

 

Now people are going to be calling for repreations...that is just stupid. However, heads have to roll for this.

reports are there were rapes too.

 

 

 

If only those Iraqis were more grateful! :banghead

I'm very, very against this war in Iraq, but I certainly don't want what is coming in response to this. SF is right on the money here. New Cold War anyone? Islam vs the US? CFDodge I respect your non-partisan comments earlier, but do you think these people in Iraq are better off now then under Sadaam? Maybe the Kurds, but the general population? Would Sadaam have slowly faded or hung around like Castro? Who knows, but this war is getting ugly quick.

For all intensive purposes their wont be democracy in Iraq. They are now realizing that these simple notions of sweeping in with democracy and being hugged by everyone and flowers blooming once Sadaam has left isnt going to happening. Once we leave civil war will break out ala Afghanistan and make things a lot lot worse. Though we arent even close to Saddam, we are losing the hearts and minds and then the question becomes whats the point. Its amazing how blind people can be.

 

 

 

And if you think this has nothing to do with oil or defense contracts, then youve been watching too much TV. Ive got a buddy who's dad is an engineer for Halliburton and he pretty much told me that they had this contract locked up well before the issue of Iraq was on the front pages.

I think there can and will be civil war. When you have armed opposing factions, that is the logical result. Furthermore, the commander and chief's apology is unprecedented and though it was the right thing politically is not good for military stability.

 

I have an honest question: how many companies offer what halliburton does? And for less?

except you cant really leave iraq now....

 

 

or it will be total chaos.

 

 

 

this is what happens when you screw up something you really had no business doing in the first place.

Yeah, it's almost like they had no plan going into this operation BUT bombing the hell out of them.

 

Granted, I'll bet all the precious oil tankards are in order.

 

Best part is seeing Rumsfeld weep like a baby on tv. I don't know if he was crying because of the atrocities or because he ruined his own career and it's pretty much over pretty soon. Yep, as you can see, we're drilling the Iraqi oil right now, and our gas prices are going way down.

 

That's probably the dumbest assumption I've ever heard about the war in Iraq. If you believe that, you've been watching WAY too much TV. Just because you don't see evidence doesn't mean it isn't happening. If the oil WAS being dug, why the hell would they offer it now when they're making so much money right now? Don't be so stupid as to think the truth is as plain as the nose on your face. These are BUSINESSMEN.

 

But, that's not the issue and I digress for lack of caring. Flamed out pretty early on that one.

 

I kind of hope Fox has those celebrity fights between Jessica Lynch and that Lennie England chick. AWESOME!

I just saw some pictures on newyorker.com.. absolutely horrifying how humans can do those things to other humans.. and those soldiers were REDICULOUS especially for standing there and smiling and having their thumb up!!

 

Does this make up for 9/11? Does this make Americans feel any safer? I THINK NOT!

As Cape would say...

 

 

"Another step towards peace in the middle east."

 

or...

 

"I blame this on Clinton."

 

 

Seriously... this is sicken...

I just saw some pictures on newyorker.com.. absolutely horrifying how humans can do those things to other humans.. and those soldiers were REDICULOUS especially for standing there and smiling and having their thumb up!!

 

Does this make up for 9/11? Does this make Americans feel any safer? I THINK NOT!

A little perspective....

 

Now, I'm not condoning what has happened thus far with the Iraqi prisoners, as it is truly a shame that a few of them have been treated poorly. But lets keep in it perspective. The worse day in an American controlled Iraqi prison is a thousand times better than the best day there before.

 

Also, doesn't anyone else find irony in the Arab world's reaction? Pick any Arab state who has stood up and decried the abuse of prisoners and look at their prisons. The American run prisons in Iraq are a thousand times better than the prisons in almost any other arab state. Would they rather we just take prisoners out to a public square and behead them like they do?

 

But the most perplexing thing to me is figuring out the Iraqi's who protest. I mean, they are protesting the Americans and their treatment of prisoners (which is still better than anything they've seen before) and are trying to use their new-found freedom to exact change, and yet in essence they are protesting against the machinations which delivered that very freedom. Do Iraqi's think that if the US up and leaves that whoever takes control is going to treat prisoners better?

 

In the end, this is all just media hype. Atrocities ten times worse happen every day in the prisons in the United States, and yet the American media has now come down from on high and declared that the treatment enemy combatants received in a war zone is unacceptable.

 

This is the product of a bunch of uneducated and undisciplined reservist yahoos who thought they were getting a free ride on Uncle Sam's coattails and wound up in Iraq with a bunch pf power that they didn't know what to do with. Serve up a sacrificial lamb or two, wait for another big event in the next news cycle to take the attention away and this will all be a distant memory, just like almost anything else that happens in our attention deficit dominated, news saturated sensationalist society.

How did they get those pictures? How did the media get em?

The pictures were part of email correpsondence between soldiers and part of soldier's electronic correspondence back to the states.

Read this story in the Baltimore Sun. They interviewed two soldiers who were assigned interrogation duties at Abu Ghraib. Pretty unbelievable.

 

"Soldiers' Warnings Ignored"

Baltimore Sun story link

 

If no pictures had ever surfaced, these stories would never have seen the light of day. If the DoD knew pictures were on their way to the media, they'd have been all over this problem before you could say courtmarshall.

This is the product of a bunch of uneducated and undisciplined reservist yahoos who thought they were getting a free ride on Uncle Sam's coattails and wound up in Iraq with a bunch pf power that they didn't know what to do with. Serve up a sacrificial lamb or two, wait for another big event in the next news cycle to take the attention away and this will all be a distant memory, just like almost anything else that happens in our attention deficit dominated, news saturated sensationalist society.

 

 

There goes that theory dood.

In the end, this is all just media hype. Atrocities ten times worse happen every day in the prisons in the United States, and yet the American media has now come down from on high and declared that the treatment enemy combatants received in a war zone is unacceptable.

 

This is the product of a bunch of uneducated and undisciplined reservist yahoos who thought they were getting a free ride on Uncle Sam's coattails and wound up in Iraq with a bunch pf power that they didn't know what to do with. Serve up a sacrificial lamb or two, wait for another big event in the next news cycle to take the attention away and this will all be a distant memory, just like almost anything else that happens in our attention deficit dominated, news saturated sensationalist society.

 

Bullsh!t Fish, you know this is not true. I'm a huge supporter of our troops and country, hell, I'm the only person I know who has both an american flag and POW flag in my room, but you compromise your love for country by posting lies and misconceptions.

 

The American media did not blow this out of proportion: the proportion is not yet known. When you get even the conservatives on the Mclaughlin group sh!tting their pants, YOU KNOW this is bad.

 

This does not implicate just some stupid reservists. There was a military cover up in two nations from the very leadership of the nation. Generals and middle ranged bureaucracts are being implicated for knowing and possibly ordering such methods. This does not only hurt America's "good name", it exposes our tactics in the war on terror that disregards the geneva convention. Justified or not, the release of this news puts not only our tactics in question, but the authorities that order such tactics and cover this up.

 

This is huge and you are still making it out to be just a couple of idiots are responsible. Wake up and smell the coffee.

You are right, I'm a liar. There is no sensational media in the US. As a matter of fact, the media is the most unbiased, sensationalistic-adverse institution known to man, and they never, ever misrepresent the truth. If they tell me the abuse of a couple dozen prisoners, among thousands, in a war zone, is a horrible thing, then I'll march to the sea like the lemming I am and believe it as truth because the media never lies.

 

Read the original New Yorker article. The problems occured under the watch of a reservist Major General who never had any experience in handling prisoners. She was reprimanded for her lack of "follow-up" on warnings and procedural changes in light of the first report back in the winter. The reservists charged thus far are all part of a reservist brigade originally charged to handle automobile traffic in Baghdad.

 

And yes, everyone, including Congress, was aware there was a problem when the original report came out months ago. The only reason it's a big mess now is because your wonderful media has something more persuasive than words... Big, bright pictures that actually capture the attention span of the ignorant, drooling, uneducated American public for more than two seconds in between their episodes of Survivor and Cops. John and Jane Q. Public can't wait for the really fancy movin' pictures they say are coming out soon. Then there will really be a scandal because everyone knows a scandal is much worse soley because there is video and pictures instead of regular old testimony that people might actually have to read.

 

Then enter the political whores, who will, as pure reactionaries, run to feed at the trough of public outcry, yada yada yada....

 

This isn't "huge." Just you wait, something bigger and more sensational will come down the pipe and all this will be pushed to the back pages as political whores line up on committees and investigative panels up on the hill to get their face time. Maybe it'll be a another event in Iraq, maybe it'll be an event in 'Ghanistan, or maybe the big event that'll take the public's interest away will be the reuniting of Bennifer or Oprah's two headed alien love child.

 

The only thing I trust less that the media is the most unintelligent, impulsive and ignorant group in the world.... The American public.