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Expos fan (and Brochu apologist) John Brattain rants about Loria


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Why is it that Loria can't seem to get his wallet out of his pocket, or as Rferry says, that MLB can't allow an owner to pay for a stadium? Have I missed something? Aren't there some owners out there that have contributed to the share of the building cost, and I'm not talking just bs rent payments. Is there some magical barrier, like 10%, that MLB won't let owners cross? In any case, it seems like Loria is stuck on 0% contribution. And if MLB does have some unwritten policy, they better change with the times.

 

There is no set number. There is the understanding that since there are only 30 franchises and nearly every town in America and elsewhere wants one, that the franchise owners should negotiate in their favor. The owners have been largely successful in their efforts, as witnessed by the many publically-financed stadiums built from thr 1950s up to recent years. Their success has only caused them to ask for more. After all it's not like there's a shortage of sustainable markets out there that want major league franchises. The example of this is perfectly clear when MLB itself is involved, such as the selection of expansion cities or the relocation of the Expos. Every action of one team effects another team. One team convinces a city to build them a stadium, the more pressure on the next city asked. It's a ruthless corrupt soul-sucking game. Therefore not is only does every new owner seek approval by the current set of owners, his potential actions that effect them are also on trial.

A step back in what has been previously offered (rental payments has been the main if not only source of private funding in stadium deals of recent and further back) should not be something Loria has to do. If it is, he is only hurting himself and the other owners. The market for baseball hasn't changed. It's as rich as ever. There's more than 30 sustainable markets for baseball. It's only a question of how long til the Marlins convince one of them to cough up what has been granted by other towns and just how much of what they get can be demanded by the next owner.

 

The Marlins and the S. Fla. community needed time and patience and I am sorry but 2-3 years is not enough. Sadly growth was being seen, but that will be washed out now completely. It was sabatoged the day he realized he would not be getting a key to a stadium in Florida, in the forseen future.

 

The community has had 15 years since they were told to seek another stadium. 10 years since the first demands from its owners for one. 8 years since it has been necessary for them to seek other options at expense of developping a long-term relationship with fans. Ignore the fan argument for a moment. There is no point in even discussing them if the team can not sustain itself in South Florida without taking drastic repulsive actions such as paying their team less than half the Devil Rays pay theirs. Right now there is no future to the Marlins in South Florida. And because of that there's no point investing anything into developping a relationship with fans. To do would be a waste of resources and little immediate benefit.

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Why is it that Loria can't seem to get his wallet out of his pocket, or as Rferry says, that MLB can't allow an owner to pay for a stadium? Have I missed something? Aren't there some owners out there that have contributed to the share of the building cost, and I'm not talking just bs rent payments. Is there some magical barrier, like 10%, that MLB won't let owners cross? In any case, it seems like Loria is stuck on 0% contribution. And if MLB does have some unwritten policy, they better change with the times.

 

There is no set number. There is the understanding that since there are only 30 franchises and nearly every town in America and elsewhere wants one, that the franchise owners should negotiate in their favor. The owners have been largely successful in their efforts, as witnessed by the many publically-financed stadiums built from thr 1950s up to recent years. Their success has only caused them to ask for more. After all it's not like there's a shortage of sustainable markets out there that want major league franchises. The example of this is perfectly clear when MLB itself is involved, such as the selection of expansion cities or the relocation of the Expos. Every action of one team effects another team. One team convinces a city to build them a stadium, the more pressure on the next city asked. It's a ruthless corrupt soul-sucking game. Therefore not is only does every new owner seek approval by the current set of owners, his potential actions that effect them are also on trial.

A step back in what has been previously offered (rental payments has been the main if not only source of private funding in stadium deals of recent and further back) should not be something Loria has to do. If it is, he is only hurting himself and the other owners. The market for baseball hasn't changed. It's as rich as ever. There's more than 30 sustainable markets for baseball. It's only a question of how long til the Marlins convince one of them to cough up what has been granted by other towns and just how much of what they get can be demanded by the next owner.

 

The Marlins and the S. Fla. community needed time and patience and I am sorry but 2-3 years is not enough. Sadly growth was being seen, but that will be washed out now completely. It was sabatoged the day he realized he would not be getting a key to a stadium in Florida, in the forseen future.

 

The community has had 15 years since they were told to seek another stadium. 10 years since the first demands from its owners for one. 8 years since it has been necessary for them to seek other options at expense of developping a long-term relationship with fans. Ignore the fan argument for a moment. There is no point in even discussing them if the team can not sustain itself in South Florida without taking drastic repulsive actions such as paying their team less than half the Devil Rays pay theirs. Right now there is no future to the Marlins in South Florida. And because of that there's no point investing anything into developping a relationship with fans. To do would be a waste of resources and little immediate benefit.

 

 

According to Samson, it's not the market. It's the lease. Although, sometimes he blames the market and sometimes he blames the lease. If they had a good lease I think the market might be good enough. Obviously, they can make way more money with their own stadium. And I want them to get their stadium in So. Florida. But I think it's not hard to not like Samson and Loria for their tactics.

 

You're right that MLB and all the owners will do what's in their own best interests. But how come Steinbrenner is building the Yankees their own stadium? The Cardinals financed their own stadium. The Mets are also building a privately financed stadium. MLB is helping to pay for the stadium in DC. I think your assertion that MLB won't let the Marlins pay a lot for their stadium. After all, even Samson say that there are three teams that have already contributed more towards their stadium than the Marlins are offering. Once you add the Mets and Yankees, it means the Marlins would be giving the 6th largest contribution. So, if the Marlins decide to contribute $250 or $275 million instead of $212 million MLB will not object.

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The Marlins and the S. Fla. community needed time and patience and I am sorry but 2-3 years is not enough. Sadly growth was being seen, but that will be washed out now completely. It was sabatoged the day he realized he would not be getting a key to a stadium in Florida, in the forseen future.

 

The community has had 15 years since they were told to seek another stadium. 10 years since the first demands from its owners for one. 8 years since it has been necessary for them to seek other options at expense of developping a long-term relationship with fans. Ignore the fan argument for a moment. There is no point in even discussing them if the team can not sustain itself in South Florida without taking drastic repulsive actions such as paying their team less than half the Devil Rays pay theirs. Right now there is no future to the Marlins in South Florida. And because of that there's no point investing anything into developping a relationship with fans. To do would be a waste of resources and little immediate benefit.

 

And what you just said is basically Loria's whole talking point. That is how he wants people to see him, as the victim. That there is nothing he can do, this whole thing is doomed. That from the day he owned the team it was set in stone this is what was going to happen, that is what he wants you to believe.

 

The truth of the matter is if the team was not able to sustain itself they would have moved already, yet they've hung around and hung around. The team can succeed in S. Florida, just not immediately. He needs to win fans over, get more butts in the seats and get people to care. If someone actually gave the fans a reason to like the team for more than a year or two at the time and let people fall in love with the team, letting the team become a way of life to them, then there would be a change in the politics and there would be much more of a local outcry not to lose the team. Right now you have a local populace that figures the team is only worth seeing for a couple years here and there and in between it's not worth it, so instead of going without a good franchise for years and years that they'd be missing, they would be missing just snapshots of goodness.

 

Maybe after this latest offseason it is too late for South Florida and Loria completely alienated a fan base, but it's not because of the fans. If he tried and was willing to lose money in the short term for long term benefit it probably would have paid off. But right now S. Florida is looking at an owner who doesn't want to commit the money to win, and a product not worth throwing a stadium at. But whatever happens it is not because of the fans, you can't just throw people on a field and expect everyone to show up. Things were growing and getting better not that it matters now.

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The Marlins and the S. Fla. community needed time and patience and I am sorry but 2-3 years is not enough. Sadly growth was being seen, but that will be washed out now completely. It was sabatoged the day he realized he would not be getting a key to a stadium in Florida, in the forseen future.

 

The community has had 15 years since they were told to seek another stadium. 10 years since the first demands from its owners for one. 8 years since it has been necessary for them to seek other options at expense of developping a long-term relationship with fans. Ignore the fan argument for a moment. There is no point in even discussing them if the team can not sustain itself in South Florida without taking drastic repulsive actions such as paying their team less than half the Devil Rays pay theirs. Right now there is no future to the Marlins in South Florida. And because of that there's no point investing anything into developping a relationship with fans. To do would be a waste of resources and little immediate benefit.

 

And what you just said is basically Loria's whole talking point. That is how he wants people to see him, as the victim. That there is nothing he can do, this whole thing is doomed. That from the day he owned the team it was set in stone this is what was going to happen, that is what he wants you to believe.

 

The truth of the matter is if the team was not able to sustain itself they would have moved already, yet they've hung around and hung around. The team can succeed in S. Florida, just not immediately. He needs to win fans over, get more butts in the seats and get people to care. If someone actually gave the fans a reason to like the team for more than a year or two at the time and let people fall in love with the team, letting the team become a way of life to them, then there would be a change in the politics and there would be much more of a local outcry not to lose the team. Right now you have a local populace that figures the team is only worth seeing for a couple years here and there and in between it's not worth it, so instead of going without a good franchise for years and years that they'd be missing, they would be missing just snapshots of goodness.

 

Maybe after this latest offseason it is too late for South Florida and Loria completely alienated a fan base, but it's not because of the fans. If he tried and was willing to lose money in the short term for long term benefit it probably would have paid off. But right now S. Florida is looking at an owner who doesn't want to commit the money to win, and a product not worth throwing a stadium at. But whatever happens it is not because of the fans, you can't just throw people on a field and expect everyone to show up. Things were growing and getting better not that it matters now.

 

I'm sick and tired of the b.s. argument that our fan base was growing from 03-05. Horrendous attendance to piss-poor attendance may be an improvement, but it is not enough to sustain a franchise. And, given the high payroll (and success) the Marlins have had over the years, the attendance they've "enjoyed" in recent years has been nothing short of putrid.

 

Also, why do you assume that Loria had the money for the high payrolls he bankrolled the past few years? I don't think you can make that assumption. For all we know, he lost a lot of money gambling that the fans would show up once he put a good product on the field. Silly Loria, you should have realized that So. Fla fans will only come out for an "event." They're hands-down the WORST fans in North America.

 

And, once and for all, because of the horrific lease with Wayne, the Marlins wouldn't have made that much money if they averaged 30K a night the past few years. But at least MLB-average attendance would have sent a strong signal to the politicians that So. Florida wants baseball and would have given them the political cover to green-light a new stadium.

 

I'm not saying Loria and co haven't made substantial PR mistakes over the years (as did Henry, as did Huizenga). But to place the blame squarely on ownership's shoulders without blaming the horrible, apathetic, blase fans is foolish.

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The Marlins and the S. Fla. community needed time and patience and I am sorry but 2-3 years is not enough. Sadly growth was being seen, but that will be washed out now completely. It was sabatoged the day he realized he would not be getting a key to a stadium in Florida, in the forseen future.

 

The community has had 15 years since they were told to seek another stadium. 10 years since the first demands from its owners for one. 8 years since it has been necessary for them to seek other options at expense of developping a long-term relationship with fans. Ignore the fan argument for a moment. There is no point in even discussing them if the team can not sustain itself in South Florida without taking drastic repulsive actions such as paying their team less than half the Devil Rays pay theirs. Right now there is no future to the Marlins in South Florida. And because of that there's no point investing anything into developping a relationship with fans. To do would be a waste of resources and little immediate benefit.

 

And what you just said is basically Loria's whole talking point. That is how he wants people to see him, as the victim. That there is nothing he can do, this whole thing is doomed. That from the day he owned the team it was set in stone this is what was going to happen, that is what he wants you to believe.

 

The truth of the matter is if the team was not able to sustain itself they would have moved already, yet they've hung around and hung around. The team can succeed in S. Florida, just not immediately. He needs to win fans over, get more butts in the seats and get people to care. If someone actually gave the fans a reason to like the team for more than a year or two at the time and let people fall in love with the team, letting the team become a way of life to them, then there would be a change in the politics and there would be much more of a local outcry not to lose the team. Right now you have a local populace that figures the team is only worth seeing for a couple years here and there and in between it's not worth it, so instead of going without a good franchise for years and years that they'd be missing, they would be missing just snapshots of goodness.

 

Maybe after this latest offseason it is too late for South Florida and Loria completely alienated a fan base, but it's not because of the fans. If he tried and was willing to lose money in the short term for long term benefit it probably would have paid off. But right now S. Florida is looking at an owner who doesn't want to commit the money to win, and a product not worth throwing a stadium at. But whatever happens it is not because of the fans, you can't just throw people on a field and expect everyone to show up. Things were growing and getting better not that it matters now.

 

I'm sick and tired of the b.s. argument that our fan base was growing from 03-05. Horrendous attendance to piss-poor attendance may be an improvement, but it is not enough to sustain a franchise. And, given the high payroll (and success) the Marlins have had over the years, the attendance they've "enjoyed" in recent years has been nothing short of putrid.

 

Also, why do you assume that Loria had the money for the high payrolls he bankrolled the past few years? I don't think you can make that assumption. For all we know, he lost a lot of money gambling that the fans would show up once he put a good product on the field. Silly Loria, you should have realized that So. Fla fans will only come out for an "event." They're hands-down the WORST fans in North America.

 

And, once and for all, because of the horrific lease with Wayne, the Marlins wouldn't have made that much money if they averaged 30K a night the past few years. But at least MLB-average attendance would have sent a strong signal to the politicians that So. Florida wants baseball and would have given them the political cover to green-light a new stadium.

 

I'm not saying Loria and co haven't made substantial PR mistakes over the years (as did Henry, as did Huizenga). But to place the blame squarely on ownership's shoulders without blaming the horrible, apathetic, blase fans is foolish.

 

 

They've repeatedly said the team would lose money even with sell-outs every game under the terms of the current lease. So they're not blaming the lack of attendance for their losses.

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They've repeatedly said the team would lose money even with sell-outs every game under the terms of the current lease. So they're not blaming the lack of attendance for their losses.

 

You miss my point. I'm not saying that better attendance would have allowed Loria to make money on a $60M payroll -- I think it's certainly plausible -- as Samson has repeatedly stated -- that with Wayne's lease, the Marlins would have to draw some ridiculous number like 65K per game just to break even.

 

But poor attendance influences the politicians who the Marlins ownership need to give them a new stadium. If no one shows up to the games anyway, why would a politician stick his or her neck out to build a new stadium. Since the community doesn't care about the Marlins, by extension, the politicians (who are voted by the community) don't care.

 

No doubt in my mind -- if the Marlins average 30K+ in attendance in '04 (or '05) -- the politicians get on the bandwagon, and we've got a new stadium by now.

 

That's why I blame the fans first and foremost for our lack of a stadium.

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The Marlins and the S. Fla. community needed time and patience and I am sorry but 2-3 years is not enough. Sadly growth was being seen, but that will be washed out now completely. It was sabatoged the day he realized he would not be getting a key to a stadium in Florida, in the forseen future.

 

The community has had 15 years since they were told to seek another stadium. 10 years since the first demands from its owners for one. 8 years since it has been necessary for them to seek other options at expense of developping a long-term relationship with fans. Ignore the fan argument for a moment. There is no point in even discussing them if the team can not sustain itself in South Florida without taking drastic repulsive actions such as paying their team less than half the Devil Rays pay theirs. Right now there is no future to the Marlins in South Florida. And because of that there's no point investing anything into developping a relationship with fans. To do would be a waste of resources and little immediate benefit.

 

And what you just said is basically Loria's whole talking point. That is how he wants people to see him, as the victim. That there is nothing he can do, this whole thing is doomed. That from the day he owned the team it was set in stone this is what was going to happen, that is what he wants you to believe.

 

The truth of the matter is if the team was not able to sustain itself they would have moved already, yet they've hung around and hung around. The team can succeed in S. Florida, just not immediately. He needs to win fans over, get more butts in the seats and get people to care. If someone actually gave the fans a reason to like the team for more than a year or two at the time and let people fall in love with the team, letting the team become a way of life to them, then there would be a change in the politics and there would be much more of a local outcry not to lose the team. Right now you have a local populace that figures the team is only worth seeing for a couple years here and there and in between it's not worth it, so instead of going without a good franchise for years and years that they'd be missing, they would be missing just snapshots of goodness.

 

Maybe after this latest offseason it is too late for South Florida and Loria completely alienated a fan base, but it's not because of the fans. If he tried and was willing to lose money in the short term for long term benefit it probably would have paid off. But right now S. Florida is looking at an owner who doesn't want to commit the money to win, and a product not worth throwing a stadium at. But whatever happens it is not because of the fans, you can't just throw people on a field and expect everyone to show up. Things were growing and getting better not that it matters now.

 

I'm sick and tired of the b.s. argument that our fan base was growing from 03-05. Horrendous attendance to piss-poor attendance may be an improvement, but it is not enough to sustain a franchise. And, given the high payroll (and success) the Marlins have had over the years, the attendance they've "enjoyed" in recent years has been nothing short of putrid.

 

Also, why do you assume that Loria had the money for the high payrolls he bankrolled the past few years? I don't think you can make that assumption. For all we know, he lost a lot of money gambling that the fans would show up once he put a good product on the field. Silly Loria, you should have realized that So. Fla fans will only come out for an "event." They're hands-down the WORST fans in North America.

 

And, once and for all, because of the horrific lease with Wayne, the Marlins wouldn't have made that much money if they averaged 30K a night the past few years. But at least MLB-average attendance would have sent a strong signal to the politicians that So. Florida wants baseball and would have given them the political cover to green-light a new stadium.

 

I'm not saying Loria and co haven't made substantial PR mistakes over the years (as did Henry, as did Huizenga). But to place the blame squarely on ownership's shoulders without blaming the horrible, apathetic, blase fans is foolish.

 

Then if the fan base is so bad and that there can never be success in S. Fla with that fanbase, why would Loria even try? Because for some unknown reason he just wants a team in Florida, just because? No because he knows a team can succeed there in the long term. If he didn't believe that then it would not be a goal to try and keep a team there. His problem is is that he is trying to keep a team in S. Fla for as little as possible, as in trying to reap the benefits of South Florida without paying for any of the downside.

 

And I didn't say attendance would get him money. I said he would lose money in the short term basically no matter what. But if he kept a consistent product on the field he would get more and more fans, thus more of a sway in the political world in S. Florida. No owner has allowed the fans to get attatched to the Marlins. Having a good team for a couple of years doesn't allow people time to fall in love with the team or to make the Marlins part of their lives. The more people cared about them the more people wouldn't want them to leave. You can't just put a product on the field and expect people to go, you need to build relations which no owner, Loria included really never did.

 

If Loria was willing to lose money in the short term the last 3-4 years and did not whine and complain about any number of things in public, or have Samson threaten moves more people would have showed up. Heck, if they didn't threaten to leave and didn't negotiate out in the media and in the public I think attendance would have been higher than also. Why should fans show up if in the end the team is just going to move anyway? Fans don't like being someone's pawn. If Loria did those two things I don't think things would be like they are now.

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My honest take...

 

If an owner cannot or just blatently does not keep the team competitive, he should be forced to sell.

 

He should be given the opportunity to sell to any buyers that want the team, as long as they themselves have the financial ability to keep the team competitive. If he refuses to sell, then the names of all the interested parties should be put into a raffle, and all the winner will have to pay is the bare minimum price for the franchise. That will give the owner incentive to sell.

 

Selling the team to MLB should be a last resort, espicially in the Marlins case, as there have been alot of interested buyers with the capacity to properly support the team. In my mind, even if the team was sold to MLB it wouldnt be under league control long.

 

You might think that seems unconstitutional, but hey...the MLB would just become the worlds largest repo service, and they have a responsibility in this matter anyway by allowing the team to be sold to Loria, who showed he didnt have the financial capability to control a team when he was the owner of Montreal.

 

Another special provision in a Marlins related sell would be the new owners ability to help fund a new stadium.

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Same old same old from the same old band of provacateurs.

 

Half the story built on half-truths and BS. When a piece like this is published you can count on the same people to make the same comments over and over. I guess the idea is if you repeat a falsehood enough times sooner or later the gullible will believe it.

 

 

agree well said :thumbup

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We've seen Loria's enthusiasm.

Yes taking apart the World Series team right after it won, letting loose some of the most popular players, opening up still fresh wounds of 1997 and then whining no one shows up or cares.You lost me right there.

 

We had less turnover after the World Series than the powerhouse that won it after us did after their championship.

 

The only "key" player from that World Series team that we let go by our own choice was Derrek Lee. Maybe you could argue Mark Redman. We tried to sign Pudge, but refused to give him a stupid contract.

 

To say we "took apart" a World Series team right after it won is a total spinjob. We brought back 6 of the 8 regulars from the lineup (Castillo, Gonzalez, Lowell, Cabrera, Pierre, Conine) and 4 of the 5 starting pitchers (Beckett, Willis, Penny, Pavano). And we upgraded the closer spot (Looper/Urbina to Benitez). The '04 team was a good ballclub and they had a real shot to make the playoffs until that damn hurricane.

Amen. People that whine about breaking up the '03 champs team, give me a damn break. It's not like Pudge was a Marlin for 10 years & then they ceremoniously dumped him. He was a one year hired gun. And if you polled 100 people whether they wanted to keep Lowell, Castillo, or DLee, I'm pretty sure Lee would've gotten the least votes.

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We've seen Loria's enthusiasm.

Yes taking apart the World Series team right after it won, letting loose some of the most popular players, opening up still fresh wounds of 1997 and then whining no one shows up or cares.You lost me right there.

 

We had less turnover after the World Series than the powerhouse that won it after us did after their championship.

 

The only "key" player from that World Series team that we let go by our own choice was Derrek Lee. Maybe you could argue Mark Redman. We tried to sign Pudge, but refused to give him a stupid contract.

 

To say we "took apart" a World Series team right after it won is a total spinjob. We brought back 6 of the 8 regulars from the lineup (Castillo, Gonzalez, Lowell, Cabrera, Pierre, Conine) and 4 of the 5 starting pitchers (Beckett, Willis, Penny, Pavano). And we upgraded the closer spot (Looper/Urbina to Benitez). The '04 team was a good ballclub and they had a real shot to make the playoffs until that damn hurricane.

Amen. People that whine about breaking up the '03 champs team, give me a damn break. It's not like Pudge was a Marlin for 10 years & then they ceremoniously dumped him. He was a one year hired gun. And if you polled 100 people whether they wanted to keep Lowell, Castillo, or DLee, I'm pretty sure Lee would've gotten the least votes.

 

It's not like Delgado was a Marlin for 10+ years and a lot of people took that personally. Pudge was the best player on the team since '97, he embodied the hope that the franchise would turn it around and be dedicated to winning year in and year out and do what it needed to do to bring the team back and have a place in S. Fla. And as far as Lee at opening day 2004 fans were not happy at all with Choi, but he won them over with that homerun of his and they chanted for him the next time up instead of snickers when he first came up.

 

And it's not just that they changed the players on the field it's that they wasted no time in starting the "we need a stadium now now now" chant, not letting the attendance the next year speak for the team. And it was within a year they first spoke of Vegas. So much for letting the fans enjoy things and forget about the past.

 

Hot, all you're doing is arguing the facts with people who have no respect for them.

 

It's fruitless. They're here to further their agendas, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Which facts? The fact that despite some unwise PR moves, among others, that attendance, and general interest in the team was going up. That people were finally warming up to the team, little by little and then he completely blew it up and he continues to lie again and again about his motives and doing excatly what past owners have done. Not to mention making deadline after deadline, that at this point no one cares anymore, because the deadlines don't mean anything. He desensitized and alienated the area completely. He was making gains and destroyed it, now he needs to start from scratch again, if he wants to.

 

You've added a lot to this conversation. You are just a Loria-homer at all costs. Since you didn't post about this topic I have to find what you think of Loria else where.

 

I don't care what Brantley or the naysayers say, I'm proud to have Jeffrey Loria as our owner and fan #1. I'm as optimistic as he is that this franchise has turned the corner and in years to come we'll look back on these days with humor instead of frustration.

 

 

You laughing full of humor yet?

 

We're just living through the nightmare that John Henry (groan, what a liar and jerk) left us with and thankfully JL understands that.

 

It seems it. :plain

 

From the article you posted:

 

Still, the Marlins are 28th in the majors in attendance.

 

"Purely a factor of the weather,'' Loria says. "If we get a new park, with a dome, where people know they won't be rained on, they'll come out. I believe in this market."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/basebal...-sports-marlins

 

(You bolded it.)

 

So if you agree with Loria, you don't blame the fans, nor the market, because he doesn't. It's always someone else's fault according to him, or something else's fault. So who do you blame? Obviously not him.

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Why is it that Loria can't seem to get his wallet out of his pocket, or as Rferry says, that MLB can't allow an owner to pay for a stadium? Have I missed something? Aren't there some owners out there that have contributed to the share of the building cost, and I'm not talking just bs rent payments. Is there some magical barrier, like 10%, that MLB won't let owners cross? In any case, it seems like Loria is stuck on 0% contribution. And if MLB does have some unwritten policy, they better change with the times.

 

There is no set number. There is the understanding that since there are only 30 franchises and nearly every town in America and elsewhere wants one, that the franchise owners should negotiate in their favor. The owners have been largely successful in their efforts, as witnessed by the many publically-financed stadiums built from thr 1950s up to recent years. Their success has only caused them to ask for more. After all it's not like there's a shortage of sustainable markets out there that want major league franchises. The example of this is perfectly clear when MLB itself is involved, such as the selection of expansion cities or the relocation of the Expos. Every action of one team effects another team. One team convinces a city to build them a stadium, the more pressure on the next city asked. It's a ruthless corrupt soul-sucking game. Therefore not is only does every new owner seek approval by the current set of owners, his potential actions that effect them are also on trial.

A step back in what has been previously offered (rental payments has been the main if not only source of private funding in stadium deals of recent and further back) should not be something Loria has to do. If it is, he is only hurting himself and the other owners. The market for baseball hasn't changed. It's as rich as ever. There's more than 30 sustainable markets for baseball. It's only a question of how long til the Marlins convince one of them to cough up what has been granted by other towns and just how much of what they get can be demanded by the next owner.

 

The Marlins and the S. Fla. community needed time and patience and I am sorry but 2-3 years is not enough. Sadly growth was being seen, but that will be washed out now completely. It was sabatoged the day he realized he would not be getting a key to a stadium in Florida, in the forseen future.

 

The community has had 15 years since they were told to seek another stadium. 10 years since the first demands from its owners for one. 8 years since it has been necessary for them to seek other options at expense of developping a long-term relationship with fans. Ignore the fan argument for a moment. There is no point in even discussing them if the team can not sustain itself in South Florida without taking drastic repulsive actions such as paying their team less than half the Devil Rays pay theirs. Right now there is no future to the Marlins in South Florida. And because of that there's no point investing anything into developping a relationship with fans. To do would be a waste of resources and little immediate benefit.

 

 

According to Samson, it's not the market. It's the lease. Although, sometimes he blames the market and sometimes he blames the lease. If they had a good lease I think the market might be good enough. Obviously, they can make way more money with their own stadium. And I want them to get their stadium in So. Florida. But I think it's not hard to not like Samson and Loria for their tactics.

 

You're right that MLB and all the owners will do what's in their own best interests. But how come Steinbrenner is building the Yankees their own stadium? The Cardinals financed their own stadium. The Mets are also building a privately financed stadium. MLB is helping to pay for the stadium in DC. I think your assertion that MLB won't let the Marlins pay a lot for their stadium. After all, even Samson say that there are three teams that have already contributed more towards their stadium than the Marlins are offering. Once you add the Mets and Yankees, it means the Marlins would be giving the 6th largest contribution. So, if the Marlins decide to contribute $250 or $275 million instead of $212 million MLB will not object.

I don't get your first point. Of course it's the lease that's the problem. I don't think anyone believes there's a better market out there (except those columnists in other cities who constantly slight Florida). However a market that can not provide a stadium is not a good market in the eyes of MLB.

 

I believe you're thinking of the Giants (who have had a worse time than the Marlins seeking public help as far as the 80s) and Braves (who converted a publically-built stadium). I can't imagine the third one.

The Yankees, Cardinals and Mets are doing so without the full support of their fellow owners. What they are doing is reducing their transfers into the revenue sharing pot by investing a stadium. Why give up 40% of their revenue to other teams when they can avoid that and build a park to earn themselves even more revenue? This isn't money the teams are necessarily giving up. Granted MLB would be better served if the teams sought a local municipality to pay for it. Still the team and MLB will benefit from te increased revenue of a new stadium. Nevermind that each city is investing much to faciliate the construction of their new parks. The Yankees call for NYC to pay over $400M in rent rebates, land transfers and infrastructure. The Mets too although not as much. Every other stadium teams have offered bit contributions, very rarely any significant money upfront. I don't think MLB is going to scream over $50M if done so in a way that does not make it seem the team is not capitulating. But alas Loria has already earmarked future expected revenues to the project for what amounts to 45% of stadium costs. You're treding a dangerous line asking him an owner of a team who is a beneficiary of MLB's revenue sharing, to contribute even more to the point he might be funding over half of the stadium (and that's not even factoring in responsibility for cost overruns) in a market that has constantly made the franchise and MLB made to look a fool.

MLB is not helping DC pay for anything. Trust me. I followed that closely. The only thing MLB offered was $20M if there were cost overruns which was to re-paid through profits of parking concessions by the city. What MLB got out of DC is nearly everything they've ever dreamed of.

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I think I can address more than a few responses with this message:

 

No one wants the Marlins or any franchise that must play at South Florida under the current lease terms without a new stadium. Not Huizenga. Not Henry. Not Loria. Not any owner that is to be approved by MLB. Not MLB itself. No one. The situaton is a sunk cause without some effort that improves the team's situation. Since 1998 this has been a lame duck franchise with little incentive for investment in the market, the fan base or even a potential stadium deal itself. The support from local politicians, and their constituents, has not been encouraging. Since 1998 this is a franchises whose owners have reserved themselves that they'd either move and/or resell the team if there's no effort to build them a new stadium.

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The support from local politicians, and their constituents, has not been encouraging. Since 1998 this is a franchises whose owners have reserved themselves that they'd either move and/or resell the team if there's no effort to build them a new stadium.

 

 

But that is the problem the sense of entitlement of the owners, Loria included. Just because you have a team doesn't mean you deserve a stadium. Loria came in and faced doubt, but he did win the World Series and could have clinched onto that and used that.

 

How is it you will change the mind of politicians? By changing the mind of the general public. And how would Loria do that? By showing the local people and the fans why they should care about the Marlins, why they need this team here and what they will be missing if they leave. Now how would one do that? By going out in public reminding us every 10 minutes without a deal they'll leave. Or by telling us again and again that they want to succeed in S Fla at any cost... just not more than they want to pay. Not to mention fielding the team they did this year at the cost they did. The public will not be taken as fools or let someone make them their pawn, they can see through this.

 

Companies and businesses regularly take losses at times for future benefit. Anyone looking at the Marlins before Loria bought them could have easily realized at the time there was not money to be made but eventually the money lost would pay off. Loria's solution to make money? To flirt with the idea of operating a winning team at a loss, but winning over the public and then eventually the politicos to get the stadium and a sweetheart deal? Or to field a team for about half of what the Devil Rays are putting out, and make money through the media deals, merchandise, MLB welfare and tickets sold? He chose the first, then dropped it after about 3 years to move on to option 2, really completely killing any chance of option 1 ever working again. Maybe he didn't kill baseball in S. Fla, but he has put the final nail in the coffin.

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Please don't tell me you just didn't throw 50 years of public subsidies and sound economic principles into the face of the debate. Who do you think you are, Neal DeMause or something? I hate the stadium as much as you, but the sense of entitlement MLB and its owners is well entreached. It's almost pointless to debate whether they should let it go.

 

Sorry if you don't feel that by simultaneously investing in the team (hello Pudge, Lowell and Delgado!) and telling fans they can't keep this up without a new stadium is not a way to encourage fans to contact their local politicians. Of course I'm sure that's lost on those who failed to use common sense to make that connection.

 

1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 8 years. How long is enough for it to get it in your thick head that there is no Marlins and no Marlins future without a new stadium. How long can one wait on nothing happening. What improvement in stadium negotiations did you note through the entire 2005 season?

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Sorry if you don't feel that by simultaneously investing in the team (hello Pudge, Lowell and Delgado!) and telling fans they can't keep this up without a new stadium is not a way to encourage fans to contact their local politicians.

 

1 year rental, no longer here, one year rental. Delgado was rented for a year as a ditch effort to show he was trying. At this point I think it is pretty clear he had no intention of Delgado being on the team in 2006, unless he had a stadium deal done. And the problem is there aren't an overwhelming amount of fans, and now there will only be less. He also used the same line that others have used in the past, it didn't work then, didn't work now, the team didn't leave then, but they probably will now. He used tactics of the past that didn't work the first time, people had been there and seen that. He showed a commitment to winning for only a little while there. And he was doing good, but then he destroyed all the goodwill he had built up.

 

1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 8 years. How long is enough for it to get it in your thick head that there is no Marlins and no Marlins future without a new stadium. How long can one wait on nothing happening. What improvement in stadium negotiations did you note through the entire 2005 season?

 

 

I know there will be no Marlins with no stadium and that is why he put the final nail in the coffin. This team marks the end of the fans trusting him, thus politicians no longer trusting him. There was a number on the table if he agreed to close it. He chose not to. From 2003 he had half a decade before he would need a new home for the team. Yet he made these aribtrary deadline time and again. He would take 3 steps forward and then 2 back the whole time. They were making gains, but slow ones.

 

He took on a team that he never should have. The person who bought the Marlins from Henry needed to put time and money into the effort. Yes it was probably a losing venture, soe outlets say that is false but I will say he lost money, but eventually it would pay off. They could have waited another year or two with competing, building up more good will, but he didn't and let everything he had go. He wasn't going to go broke.

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As usual, half the truth from someone who appears to have a full-time job spreading misstatements about this franchise.

 

I guess it's convenient to forget late 2003 when virtually every politician in South Florida wanted face time with the World Champion Marlins and was promising the electorate (nevermind Loria) that they'd get a new stadium built for the local heroes. City and county commissioners, mayors from both governments, state reps and senators of both parties all proclaimed it was time to get a new stadium built.

 

That of course was before the Arriola mafia ran the numbers and realized this was too good an opportunity for an outsider (read, not one of "their" own) to profit from. All those construction contracts to hand out, all those concession and services contracts to make sure wound up in the "right" hands.

 

The Marlins were going to hire out of state General Contractors who couldn't be bought and weren't going to allow no-show contractors and special interests to drive prices out of hand out. There was going to be no skimming for the politicos. And services and concessions contracts were going to those who bid the most not contributed the most to the mob running Miami.

 

The problems at the airport where the corrupt had profited so long were coming to an end and many of the area's biggest political contributors were involved. Up until then they had a lock grip on every restaurant, newsstand and duty free store at MIA. They were about to be thrown out and needed a place to set up shop and the new Marlins/UM Orange Bowl stadium was just the place.

 

Even Hank Goldberg was reporting what so many knew back then, that the pressure was being applied by Arroila and his corrupt band of cronies to force Loria to sell the team. If Goldberg knew what was going on behind the scenes you have to know half the town did too.

 

Their mistake? As Goldberg and others reported, trying to force a deal down Loria's throat that would have resulted in him losing tens, perhaps hundreds of millions, rather than making it. Instead of saying as is the norm when franchises change hands, "we want to pay you what the franchise is worth and make it worth your while to consider a buy-out", their bargaining tactic was "take our deal or we'll ruin you".

 

Arriola lack of commitment guaranteed the stadium deal was held hostage and as every new condo project was announced on Brickell and Miami Beach, the price of concrete, steel and materials in general went through the roof (no pun intended). A $10,000,000 shortfall turned into $30,000,000 and eventually $70 million. The county and the Marlins tried valiantly to keep up, increasing their respective pieces, the Marlins eventually offering $212 million, but to no avail as Arriola held the city of Miami pledged CDT dollars at arms length all the while trying harder and harder to cram a bad deal down ownership's throat.

 

Loria's biggest mistake? Believing fielding a world champion team and trying to replicate it in 2004 and again in 2005 would be enough to get him out of Huizenga's hell on earth. Those who say he should have known better and was naive won't have an argument from me. This is Miami, America's own banana republic and he certainly underestimated Huizenga's influence and ability to control Tallahassee just as the organization closed their eyes to how corrupt the city of Miami and it's government is.

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I guess it's convenient to forget late 2003 when virtually every politician in South Florida wanted face time with the World Champion Marlins and was promising the electorate (nevermind Loria) that they'd get a new stadium built for the local heroes. City and county commissioners, mayors from both governments, state reps and senators of both parties all proclaimed it was time to get a new stadium built.

 

And who do you hear people blame for not having a stadium deal done. Hit the streets and talk to people. Most will say Loria not any of the politicians. If Loria played things clean and straight forward, showed fans what they wanted to see he could have gotten them on his side. Problem is that is not what he did. Their PR was just as bad as what the county and city did. Mud-slinging back and fourth, who is going to win? The one who doesn't want to use the tax money of the people. When you want to use tax money it's an upward battle for you already, you can't play level with the other people, you have to get ahead of them.

 

The Marlins were going to hire out of state General Contractors who couldn't be bought and weren't going to allow no-show contractors and special interests to drive prices out of hand out. There was going to be no skimming for the politicos. And services and concessions contracts were going to those who bid the most not contributed the most to the mob running Miami.

 

 

So you are basically saying they were going to hire people they could trust, but not trust enough to cover the over-runs themselves. Interesting.

 

Loria's biggest mistake? Believing fielding a world champion team and trying to replicate it in 2004 and again in 2005 would be enough to get him out of Huizenga's hell on earth.

 

 

I agree 100%. Maybe for a different reason though. I think to him just winning the WS and then showing good faith in keeping the team up for a couple years was enough to entitle him to a stadium, which is his mistake. He was not the first owner who failed at getting a stadium here, but he used similar tactics of the past. In the end he had a number on the table and chose not to jump at it thinking he could get himself a better deal elsewhere. I just have a hard time believing that he wouldn't fund the gap if he believes that stadium would have solved all his problems and worries. I have to believe if he wanted that he would have found a way.

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Sorry if you don't feel that by simultaneously investing in the team (hello Pudge, Lowell and Delgado!) and telling fans they can't keep this up without a new stadium is not a way to encourage fans to contact their local politicians.

 

1 year rental, no longer here, one year rental. Delgado was rented for a year as a ditch effort to show he was trying. At this point I think it is pretty clear he had no intention of Delgado being on the team in 2006, unless he had a stadium deal done. And the problem is there aren't an overwhelming amount of fans, and now there will only be less. He also used the same line that others have used in the past, it didn't work then, didn't work now, the team didn't leave then, but they probably will now. He used tactics of the past that didn't work the first time, people had been there and seen that. He showed a commitment to winning for only a little while there. And he was doing good, but then he destroyed all the goodwill he had built up.

 

1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 8 years. How long is enough for it to get it in your thick head that there is no Marlins and no Marlins future without a new stadium. How long can one wait on nothing happening. What improvement in stadium negotiations did you note through the entire 2005 season?

 

 

I know there will be no Marlins with no stadium and that is why he put the final nail in the coffin. This team marks the end of the fans trusting him, thus politicians no longer trusting him. There was a number on the table if he agreed to close it. He chose not to. From 2003 he had half a decade before he would need a new home for the team. Yet he made these aribtrary deadline time and again. He would take 3 steps forward and then 2 back the whole time. They were making gains, but slow ones.

 

He took on a team that he never should have. The person who bought the Marlins from Henry needed to put time and money into the effort. Yes it was probably a losing venture, soe outlets say that is false but I will say he lost money, but eventually it would pay off. They could have waited another year or two with competing, building up more good will, but he didn't and let everything he had go. He wasn't going to go broke.

I don't know who you think this magical owner is that is willing to take losses for a half-decade or more to gain something that may not even occur. I'm willing to bet if you could find him that he wouldn't pass MLB's sniff test.

That there's been no progress in a year and half is not exactly at fault of the Marlins. They were busy investing in the team (yes, with an exit clause if they had to cut bait). Fans didn't show up as expected. Fans' lobbying efforts had no effect. And Dade County made no progress in closing the funding gap. How long do you expect someone to have patience to continually running a disruptive franchise while hopes are deminishing? How long do you expect someone to make any effort towards their goal when hope is deminishing?

I'm not in the business of debating owners, because deep down I know they all have very similar goals. But it's ludricous to suggest Loria put the final nail in the coffin. This is a franchise that nearly got contracted!!! Huizenga's lies and Henry's false promises have had a far more disasterous effect. But all that is pointless, because whether the ground is salted or not, if the Marlins don't get a stadium they're leaving. Why don't you wait until then to worry about whose fault it was?

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