Jump to content

Marlins still searching...


Marlins97+03WC
 Share

Recommended Posts

The Marlins are looking at David Murphy and the Indians' Franklin Gutierrez as they continue their search for a center fielder.

 

B.J. Upton and Elijah Dukes would be better options, but the Marlins haven't been able to get anything done with the Rays. There was some speculation last year about Murphy for Taylor Tankersley, but there's little chance that the Marlins would give up the left-hander now. Ricky Nolasco, who was offered up for Upton, is more expendable, but he's still worth a little more than either Murphy or Gutierrez. Perhaps Yusmeiro Petit is a possibility.

Source: FOXSports.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(note to Mods) We have two threads on pretty much the same thing that both quote the same Rosenthal and Roto blurbs.)

 

None of this is vaguely new, or news, but it will make the rounds as one place after another repeats it.

 

Maybe someone else has, but I have yet to find one really positive (read authoratative, vs some blog or messageboard post) article on Gutierrez. I read the "good ballplayer but strikes out too much" stuff all the time but nothing that really would indicate to me he's an answer here. Now if Beinfest or his guys see something different and he works out, that's great neither he nor Murphy really have shown they can play at the major league level as opposed to other equivalent options out there not on the Tampa Bay roster.

 

Speaking of Tampa Bay, it's going to be interesting to watch who does and who doesn't get A team play time and who doesn't, and how Dukes and to a lesser degree Upton will handle themselves if they don't. I'm kinda thinking Tampa is going to relent (not necessarily as it relates to the Marlins) and pull off at least a couple of trades before spring training starts if for no other reason than to clear the air and get people settled into their positions. But one never knows with TB.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am still hoping for upton because of his upside but I would not mind murphy

 

 

Wasnt there information about murphy adding like 15-20 lbs of muscle in the offseason?

yes. he wants to hit for more power. He's big (6'3 or 4) so he can probably handle the weight and not get slowed down. I'd still take Guiterrez over him, but either of them would be pretty adequate I imagine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

B.J. Upton, Tampa Bay Devil Rays: A real organization (and the new Tampa regime might qualify by the time the season is out) would probably have some idea what to do with The Talented Mr. Upton. Here's what we know: One, he is an astounding athlete. Two, he has a Belle-quick bat. And three, when a ball bounces his way in the infield, it is just as likely to connect with his shin, temple or Adam's apple as with his glove. Ergo, one would suggest a shift to the outfield ... but three years after the prospect groupies started that speculation, Upton remains a defensive nomad on a team with 26 DH candidates. At some point, you figure that either he or another of the Tampa outfielders (Rocco Baldelli?) has to wind up in Marlin teal as the key cog in a deal for young pitching.

 

quote from cbs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Upton is not coming. I don't even agree that he is worth Nolasco (to us, as a CF) at this point, and if Tampa didn't take that deal, where Nolasco would be worth much more to them than Upton is on the bench, they aren't going to take anything fair.

I disagree completely with that. I think Upton is worth far more then Nolasco. If he qualified as a prospect he would be a top 25 prospect right now about where Hermida would be. Is Hermida worth more then Nolasco? I surely hope you think so. Ricky did good and bad at times but he is projected as a 3-4-5 type guy. He is not ever going to be an elite ace type SP. that is what they really want to get, they have alotof 3-4-5 type of pitchers in their minor leagues and majors. But they are missing elite young guys.

 

I am not advocating giving up Olsen, Sanchez or Willis for him though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree completely with that. I think Upton is worth far more then Nolasco. If he qualified as a prospect he would be a top 25 prospect right now about where Hermida would be. Is Hermida worth more then Nolasco? I surely hope you think so. Ricky did good and bad at times but he is projected as a 3-4-5 type guy. He is not ever going to be an elite ace type SP. that is what they really want to get, they have alotof 3-4-5 type of pitchers in their minor leagues and majors. But they are missing elite young guys.

 

I am not advocating giving up Olsen, Sanchez or Willis for him though.

Upton has barely set foot on the outfield, even in the minors, let alone at the ML level. The guy might be an amazing hitter (although he hasn't shown it yet in the majors) but to trade away a SP who won over 10 games as a rookie to put this kid in CF full time when he can't even win a starting job in Tampa makes no sense. If he was already in our system or came cheap, I'd have no problem with shoving him in CF, but to give up a good SP who is also has the ability to be an effective RP for him at this point makes no sense.

Nolasco on the other hand, as a rookie, won more games than anyone did in Tampa, or has in a few years (I think) for that matter. And while # of wins in and of itself may not be a great measure of a pitcher, bear in mind he never got wins by just getting lucky w/ run support, as he never gave up more than 3 runs while recording a win. But anyways, the point is that he is better than decent, and while certainly not an ace, you don't have to be an ace to be better than most of what pitches for Tampa. Of 12 pitchers who started games for them last season, one has winning record(and the most wins with 10). He is also the "workhorse" of the rotation, working 4 whole innings more than Nolasco to get up to a whopping 144.2 IP. You know I'm talking about Kazmir, and you know that aside from him, Tampa's rotation is a joke. I think he could easily end up being #2 or #3, even if just cause it's Tampa. But even if you think he'd just be #4 or #5 there, that's still worth more than Upton keeping the bench warm. If they were actually planning on starting Upton somewhere it would make sense.

BTW, no point in comparing Upton to Hermida, really. But if you really want to split hairs about who is "worth more", then riddle me this - who contributed more to the team's successes this past season? Hermida or Nolasco?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree completely with that. I think Upton is worth far more then Nolasco. If he qualified as a prospect he would be a top 25 prospect right now about where Hermida would be. Is Hermida worth more then Nolasco? I surely hope you think so. Ricky did good and bad at times but he is projected as a 3-4-5 type guy. He is not ever going to be an elite ace type SP. that is what they really want to get, they have alotof 3-4-5 type of pitchers in their minor leagues and majors. But they are missing elite young guys.

 

I am not advocating giving up Olsen, Sanchez or Willis for him though.

Upton has barely set foot on the outfield, even in the minors, let alone at the ML level. The guy might be an amazing hitter (although he hasn't shown it yet in the majors) but to trade away a SP who won over 10 games as a rookie to put this kid in CF full time when he can't even win a starting job in Tampa makes no sense. If he was already in our system or came cheap, I'd have no problem with shoving him in CF, but to give up a good SP who is also has the ability to be an effective RP for him at this point makes no sense.

Nolasco on the other hand, as a rookie, won more games than anyone did in Tampa, or has in a few years (I think) for that matter. And while # of wins in and of itself may not be a great measure of a pitcher, bear in mind he never got wins by just getting lucky w/ run support, as he never gave up more than 3 runs while recording a win. But anyways, the point is that he is better than decent, and while certainly not an ace, you don't have to be an ace to be better than most of what pitches for Tampa. Of 12 pitchers who started games for them last season, one has winning record(and the most wins with 10). He is also the "workhorse" of the rotation, working 4 whole innings more than Nolasco to get up to a whopping 144.2 IP. You know I'm talking about Kazmir, and you know that aside from him, Tampa's rotation is a joke. I think he could easily end up being #2 or #3, even if just cause it's Tampa. But even if you think he'd just be #4 or #5 there, that's still worth more than Upton keeping the bench warm. If they were actually planning on starting Upton somewhere it would make sense.

BTW, no point in comparing Upton to Hermida, really. But if you really want to split hairs about who is "worth more", then riddle me this - who contributed more to the team's successes this past season? Hermida or Nolasco?

your entire arguement is based off of wins? How about his whip? How aboiut hiw BB/K % or his HR/K%, his era?

 

I guess since Randy Johnson last year won more wins then anyone on the marlins he was better then any of our pitchers? Or Steve Traschel whom won 15 games must be better then sanchez or olsen or willis for that matter.

 

 

as for upton he is a high onbase percentage player that has great speed, gap power, arm and the potential for homerun power. You wish to see what he is compared to, look to at Hanley Ramirez. Just lookat his 2003 line in the minor leagues:

 

.297 BA, 30 Doubles, 8 HR, 62 RBI, 40 stolen bases in AA as a 18 year old.

.303 BA, 7 Hr in 31 games in AAA as a 19 year old (youngest SS to go there since Arod) 04

274 BA, .362 OBP, .437 SLG, 18 HR, 36 Doubles, 44 SB, 98 Runs, 74 RBI (as a 20 year old in AAA) 05

 

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/uptonbj01.php

 

 

You need to throw out last year from the injuries and the like, just like you do it for hermida. But, this player is an ELITE talent in major league baseball. There is a reason he was a number 2 overall pick and he far easily worth it.

 

You are welcome to your opinion, I just think you are very very much under valuing BJ Upton. According to BA if he was still eligable to be a prospect he would be a top 20 prospect still. HE is only 21 years old.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Upton is not coming. I don't even agree that he is worth Nolasco (to us, as a CF) at this point, and if Tampa didn't take that deal, where Nolasco would be worth much more to them than Upton is on the bench, they aren't going to take anything fair.

I disagree completely with that. I think Upton is worth far more then Nolasco. If he qualified as a prospect he would be a top 25 prospect right now about where Hermida would be. Is Hermida worth more then Nolasco? I surely hope you think so. Ricky did good and bad at times but he is projected as a 3-4-5 type guy. He is not ever going to be an elite ace type SP. that is what they really want to get, they have alotof 3-4-5 type of pitchers in their minor leagues and majors. But they are missing elite young guys.

 

I am not advocating giving up Olsen, Sanchez or Willis for him though.

Your argument is flawed in the aspect that Upton has become a project that the D-Rays have no need to undertake because of the superior talent they have in the Outfield already. true he has superior skills but so have many others that just haven't cut it. The Marlins have the patience that would be required for him to suceed in the majors. THEY HAVE NO CHOICE! They could start the season with both Reed and Upton on the roster He could learn the job without major pressure.

 

You don't trade Baldelli or Crawford to develop a project. Upton is not going back to the minors because it does nothing for him and actually diminishes his trade value even more. Why hold a talent of this kind hostage? That's the D-Ray FO for you!

 

any argument you think you're making...it's crazy to think Upton for Nolasco is some sort of unfair trade for us. absolutely Insane.

Agreed!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tampa's rotation is a joke. I think he could easily end up being #2 or #3, even if just cause it's Tampa. But even if you think he'd just be #4 or #5 there, that's still worth more than Upton keeping the bench warm. If they were actually planning on starting Upton somewhere it would make sense.

BTW, no point in comparing Upton to Hermida, really. But if you really want to split hairs about who is "worth more", then riddle me this - who contributed more to the team's successes this past season? Hermida or Nolasco?

Just because he'd theoretically be the 2nd or 3rd (Niemann) starter on TB next year, doesn't mean he IS a 2nd or 3rd starter. That just means Tampa Bay really stinks. Nolasco is more then likely going to develop into a 4/5, or a plus swingman. Which isn't a bad thing by any stretch, but he's completely expendable on our end if we're able to acquire a CF of equal/greater value, and likewise any SP in the organization. Hermida versus Nolasco? It's Hermida by about 10 miles.

 

You are severely undervaluing BJ Upton. The kid would handle an OF transition just fine even if there were some initial bumps in the road, and he'll probably hit something like .270/.340/.425, 45/15 SB, right away. Let alone there is tremendous growth in avg (career .296 minors, 1-2 years young per level), where he might turn into some kind of outrageous .300/.375/.500 type hitter by the time he is 25. Probably settle somewhere in the middle of those two lines, which is still a tremendous .825ish OPS CF, with speed. Tampa knows what they are sitting on. If they play him in the OF for 2 months and he shows he isn't a disaster at the MLB level, his value absolutely sky rockets.

 

I agree that for lack of a complete MLB resume to not want to dish any of the 1-4 SP for him, but I think it would be extremely fair to offer the Rays Nolasco (whom they have liked in the past, linked to Gathright) and take their pick of any SP in the farm system, guessing it would be Volstad or West. They'd be pretty crazy not to take that from my perspective because I really doubt another franchise would give them 2 pitchers of that quality, but hey, if they say no. We can look elsewhere. Offering them Nolasco-Upton straight up is a slap in the face as far as I'm concerned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tampa's rotation is a joke. I think he could easily end up being #2 or #3, even if just cause it's Tampa. But even if you think he'd just be #4 or #5 there, that's still worth more than Upton keeping the bench warm. If they were actually planning on starting Upton somewhere it would make sense.

BTW, no point in comparing Upton to Hermida, really. But if you really want to split hairs about who is "worth more", then riddle me this - who contributed more to the team's successes this past season? Hermida or Nolasco?

Just because he'd theoretically be the 2nd or 3rd (Niemann) starter on TB next year, doesn't mean he IS a 2nd or 3rd starter. That just means Tampa Bay really stinks. Nolasco is more then likely going to develop into a 4/5, or a plus swingman. Which isn't a bad thing by any stretch, but he's completely expendable on our end if we're able to acquire a CF of equal/greater value, and likewise any SP in the organization. Hermida versus Nolasco? It's Hermida by about 10 miles.

 

You are severely undervaluing BJ Upton. The kid would handle an OF transition just fine even if there were some initial bumps in the road, and he'll probably hit something like .270/.340/.425, 45/15 SB, right away. Let alone there is tremendous growth in avg (career .296 minors, 1-2 years young per level), where he might turn into some kind of outrageous .300/.375/.500 type hitter by the time he is 25. Probably settle somewhere in the middle of those two lines, which is still a tremendous .825ish OPS CF, with speed. Tampa knows what they are sitting on. If they play him in the OF for 2 months and he shows he isn't a disaster at the MLB level, his value absolutely sky rockets.

 

I agree that for lack of a complete MLB resume to not want to dish any of the 1-4 SP for him, but I think it would be extremely fair to offer the Rays Nolasco (whom they have liked in the past, linked to Gathright) and take their pick of any SP in the farm system, guessing it would be Volstad or West. They'd be pretty crazy not to take that from my perspective because I really doubt another franchise would give them 2 pitchers of that quality, but hey, if they say no. We can look elsewhere. Offering them Nolasco-Upton straight up is a slap in the face as far as I'm concerned.

 

Hermida by 10 miles my ass. Pitchers are in far greater demand than outfielders.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tampa's rotation is a joke. I think he could easily end up being #2 or #3, even if just cause it's Tampa. But even if you think he'd just be #4 or #5 there, that's still worth more than Upton keeping the bench warm. If they were actually planning on starting Upton somewhere it would make sense.

BTW, no point in comparing Upton to Hermida, really. But if you really want to split hairs about who is "worth more", then riddle me this - who contributed more to the team's successes this past season? Hermida or Nolasco?

Just because he'd theoretically be the 2nd or 3rd (Niemann) starter on TB next year, doesn't mean he IS a 2nd or 3rd starter. That just means Tampa Bay really stinks. Nolasco is more then likely going to develop into a 4/5, or a plus swingman. Which isn't a bad thing by any stretch, but he's completely expendable on our end if we're able to acquire a CF of equal/greater value, and likewise any SP in the organization. Hermida versus Nolasco? It's Hermida by about 10 miles.

 

You are severely undervaluing BJ Upton. The kid would handle an OF transition just fine even if there were some initial bumps in the road, and he'll probably hit something like .270/.340/.425, 45/15 SB, right away. Let alone there is tremendous growth in avg (career .296 minors, 1-2 years young per level), where he might turn into some kind of outrageous .300/.375/.500 type hitter by the time he is 25. Probably settle somewhere in the middle of those two lines, which is still a tremendous .825ish OPS CF, with speed. Tampa knows what they are sitting on. If they play him in the OF for 2 months and he shows he isn't a disaster at the MLB level, his value absolutely sky rockets.

 

I agree that for lack of a complete MLB resume to not want to dish any of the 1-4 SP for him, but I think it would be extremely fair to offer the Rays Nolasco (whom they have liked in the past, linked to Gathright) and take their pick of any SP in the farm system, guessing it would be Volstad or West. They'd be pretty crazy not to take that from my perspective because I really doubt another franchise would give them 2 pitchers of that quality, but hey, if they say no. We can look elsewhere. Offering them Nolasco-Upton straight up is a slap in the face as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

Good post. That would be a very fair trade for both sides. Our future lineup would be sick and we would still have a solid rotation with plenty of young arms down the pipe.

 

Tampa gets a legit young SP and hopefully a future #1 type starter in either Volstad or West. Still proably not enough for those morons. They proably still won't have developed any SP's by the time Kazmir and thier young postion players hit free agency.

 

You have to give to get. Nolasco alone won't land anybody big time. Throw in a top prospect. Keep the big 4 intact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good post. That would be a very fair trade for both sides. Our future lineup would be sick and we would still have a solid rotation with plenty of young arms down the pipe.

 

Tampa gets a legit young SP and hopefully a future #1 type starter in either Volstad or West. Still proably not enough for those morons. They proably still won't have developed any SP's by the time Kazmir and thier young postion players hit free agency.

 

You have to give to get. Nolasco alone won't land anybody big time. Throw in a top prospect. Keep the big 4 intact.

Thanks. They actually have a lot of good pitchers coming up the wings, but they probably won't arrive late 08/09, and then start hitting their strides until 10/11. Which is crazy to think so far in advance, but that's just where they are. They can keep a very strong core - Crawford (they just have to keep him), Delmon, Longoria, Briegnac, Rocco (signed through 2011 very reasonable), during those years for relatively cheap (undervalue might be a better word), so I really think it's in their best interest to acquire pitchers who will be cost effective for years 2009-2012. i.e., West and Volstad make a lot more sense then Josh Johnson in those terms. That's just how I see it anyways. Maybe they think they can contend sooner.

 

I really think the problem is, Beinfest will not break up the "B" rotation (Volstad, West, Thompson, G. Hernandez, Sinkbeil) to acquire a CF right now because he does not believe this team is a contender because of the volatility of young SP. I'd imagine he'd trade 1 of them in July if we're in it, but he's definitely in wait and see mode on how the young pitchers will react over the first 2-3 months of the season. I'm willing to bet they'll respond and get the CF now, but it just seems he wants to wait and see what happens. That's fair enough, but the way we're set up with so much pitching in the pipelines, it doesn't really matter if we trade now or later cause it's eventually going to happen. All that needs to happen is, we get a fair return for pitching for a center fielder. That's it. It'll help the club so much in the short term. That's why I'm continually frustrated with our FO this offseason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share



×
×
  • Create New...