http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/news/articl...sp&c_id=fla

 

At luncheon, focus put on club's needs

02/06/2007 7:30 PM ET

By Charlie Nobles / Special to MLB.com

 

HOLLYWOOD, Fla. -- At the Marlins' annual media kickoff luncheon on Tuesday, much of the attention predictably centered around two positions -- center field and closer.

The Marlins, who won 78 games last season with help from the National League Rookie of the Year, shortstop Hanley Ramirez, and four rookie pitchers who each won at least 10 games, feel they are set everywhere else.

 

For now, general manager Admin Beinfest said the Marlins are focusing on "internal candidates for both spots. We're prepared to close the book on it, but that doesn't mean we're going to stop looking, in case something presents itself."

 

Regarding a closer, the Marlins weren't able to acquire a sleeper candidate with Major League experience as they have in the last two seasons with Todd Jones and Joe Borowski. They still have several interesting candidates, and that makes Beinfest feel optimistic.

 

"We think we have a closer in camp," he said after lunch at Rivals Sports Grille. "I'm not sure he's been a closer, or he knows who he is, but I think in the next six weeks, someone will step up."

 

Beinfest stockpiles starting pitchers the way Warren Buffett stockpiles cash, so when he was willing to part with left-handed starters Jason Vargas and Adam Bostic in a Nov. 20 trade with the Mets for two closer candidates, that could become meaningful. Matt Lindstrom and Henry Owens are big people who throw hard, particularly Lindstrom.

 

In fact, Lindstrom, who is 6-foot-4 and 210 pounds, reached 100 mph on the radar gun in his last Winter League start in Puerto Rico. He had 11 saves at Double-A Binghamton last season after overcoming a stress fracture in the humerus part of his shoulder.

 

"In rehab, I was able to gauge my speed every time I went out there," Lindstrom said. "On a bad day I was going 96-97; on a good one, I hit 100 now and then. It's really a tribute to what the Mets did for me as far as getting me back in shape and back in good health. I've had a lot better control, too, now that I'm not worrying about hurting my arm on every pitch."

 

Owens, a 6-foot-3, 230-pound right-hander who can throw in the mid-90s, also intrigues Beinfest. A converted catcher, he pitches with the same cocked arm motion that he once used to throw out runners.

 

"We actually faced him last season at Shea, and he was hard to pick up and had good arm strength," the general manager said.

 

The Marlins' first option to replace Borowski still likely could be Ricky Nolasco, who was 11-11 last season as a starter with a 4.82 ERA. Beinfest said Nolasco has a "very live arm and a great mental makeup, and he's already won 11 games in the big leagues."

 

The big question is, can Nolasco's arm handle pitching on virtually a daily basis?

 

"I'll willing to do whatever they want me to," Nolasco said at the event. "I once pitched three days in a row and it didn't bother me a bit. It's a lot different when you're just pitching an inning at a time rather than going seven or eight innings."

 

The Marlins also are impressed with the way left-hander Taylor Tankersley comported himself last season. He had a 2-1 record with a 2.85 ERA and three saves.

 

Other possibilities could include right-handers Kevin Gregg and Mike Koplove and left-hander Renyel Pinto, who picked up a save last season among his 29 2/3 innings for the Marlins.

 

Beinfest called Pinto "imposing. I don't think people are comfortable facing him."

 

Center field appears to be a virtual toss-up among Alex Sanchez -- who once was a solid player for the Brewers and was signed to a Minor League deal by the Marlins -- Eric Reed and Reggie Abercrombie, who are all speedy options. Also, offensive threats such as Cody Ross or Joe Borchard will be able to fill in when needed.

 

Beinfest acknowledged that the Marlins could have acquired a proven center field talent but backed off. They declined because the trade was "not at a price we were willing to pay," he said.

 

The Marlins have two other concerns -- young starting pitchers Anibal Sanchez and Josh Johnson, who are both recovering from arm trouble. Beinfest said Sanchez already is throwing off a mound and is on schedule to compete in Spring Training. Meanwhile, they are being "a little bit cautious" with Johnson, a 6-foot-7 right-hander who presently is resting his arm.

 

"We believe they'll both be ready to go Opening Day," Beinfest said.

 

The general manager is hopeful that Florida will be able to build on a surprising 2006 season. The Marlins were the first team in Major League history to have four rookie pitchers with 10-plus wins. Their rookie pitchers had 50 victories, a feat unmatched since 1952, and they became the first team in National League history to come from 20 games under .500 in the same season to have a winning record, before finishing 78-84.

 

"Coming from 20 under tells you a lot about these players," Beinfest said. "You're always going to go through some hiccups along the way, but we think we have a strong group in terms of their mental makeup."

 

And then Beinfest repeated what he has been telling his players, young and old, inexperienced and veterans, for years now: "Playing in October is our goal from Day 1."

from what I learned today, Tank lost alot of weight

 

not sure if this is good news or bad news though

Beinfest has major holes left to fill

Listen to this article or download audio file.Click-2-Listen

 

By Joe Capozzi

 

Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

 

Wednesday, February 07, 2007

 

HOLLYWOOD ? After the rookie-laden Marlins surprised the baseball world with 78 wins in 2006, the front office hoped to spend the off-season adding players who could make the team into a playoff contender in 2007.

 

But with spring training 10 days away, the team still hasn't settled on a center fielder or a closer.

 

"We have not been successful to the level we would like to be at this point in those two areas in terms of bringing in additional candidates,'' General Manager Admin Beinfest said Tuesday as the club made its annual caravan through South Florida, including three public appearances in Palm Beach County.

 

"But I don't think it should be totally stated that we don't have anybody to play out there and we don't have anybody to close. Sometimes things do work themselves out.''

 

While the Marlins will continue to explore trade options this spring, Beinfest said he believes the team's closer will emerge from the spring training roster.

 

Leading candidates include right-hander Ricky Nolasco, a starter who also went 2-1 with a 3.98 ERA in 13 relief appearances; left-hander Taylor Tankersley, who converted three of seven save chances last year; and two hard-throwing but inexperienced right-handers acquired from the Mets: Henry Owens and Matt Lindstrom, whose fastball has been clocked at 100 mph.

 

Nolasco, who would be the fifth starter if he doesn't end up in the bullpen, has never closed a game.

 

"I've been thinking about it,'' he said. "I'd have no problem closing, starting, whatever they want me to do.''

 

Whoever takes the job will replace right-hander Joe Borowski, who signed a free-agent deal with the Cleveland Indians after recording 36 saves for the Marlins in 2006.

 

"Our bullpen is not going to be the weak part of our team this year,'' said Tankersley. "We're not going to let that happen.''

 

Alex Sanchez appears to have an early edge for the center-field spot because he has the most experience there. The Marlins also like his speed and hitting ability.

 

The team tried to sign free agent Darin Erstad, at one point enlisting manager Fredi Gonzalez to speak to the former two-time All Star.

 

But Erstad signed with the Chicago White Sox, taking a deal reported to be for $1 million for one season.

 

The Marlins were trying to trade for Toronto's Alex Rios, but Florida was not willing to give up left-handed starter Scott Olsen.

 

Hearings set: The Marlins will take two players to arbitration hearings next week in Phoenix: right-hander Kevin Gregg on Monday and All-Star third baseman Miguel Cabrera on Friday.

 

Gregg, who made $365,000 last year, asked for $700,000; the team offered $575,000.

 

Cabrera, who made $472,000 in 2006, asked for $7.4 million; the team offered $6.7 million.

 

"The numbers we're talking about for Miguel we think appropriately are going to compensate him for what he's done, and he has done a terrific job for us,'' Beinfest said.

 

"I know Miguel. He's a professional kid. He has taken on a lot of things at a young age and he'll handle this well. Then we'll all get on a plane and start spring training.''

 

Sanchez improving: Right-hander Anibal Sanchez has been throwing off the mound again, an encouraging development after he complained last month about a sore shoulder.

 

Right-hander Josh Johnson, who has been shut down since Jan. 19 because a sore right forearm, has no plans yet to throw off the mound.

 

"We believe they'll be ready to go opening day,'' Beinfest said.

 

Noteworthy: Without offering a specific reason, team President David Samson said he believes the Marlins could announce a new ballpark deal some time this year.

 

 

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/conte...rlins_0207.html

So Beinfest himself mentioned Borchard as at least an option in CF. I hope that at least makes it to the folks who say he has zero chance of working into that spot.

So Beinfest himself mentioned Borchard as at least an option in CF. I hope that at least makes it to the folks who say he has zero chance of working into that spot.

 

 

That's incorrect- he said that Joe Borchard could fill in as needed. He has no chance to be the opening day CFer.

I'm ecstatic that the Marlins appear to be looking internally for a closer.

 

For a CF, however, not so much.

 

 

 

Im fine with the closer situation as well. I firmly believe that Nolasco (and maybe one of our other bullpen arms) has better stuff than Borowski.

 

 

But I am simply amazed that a whole off-season has gone by and the CF situation (which was/is a grave one) is the same with the exception of Alex Sanchez (no big addition anyway you slice it and dice it).

 

The team with the lowest payroll (by far) in the majors can't find it within their budget to pick up a real CF'r and make this team a legitamate wild card contender.

 

Unreal.

I'm ecstatic that the Marlins appear to be looking internally for a closer.

 

For a CF, however, not so much.

 

 

 

Im fine with the closer situation as well. I firmly believe that Nolasco (and maybe one of our other bullpen arms) has better stuff than Borowski.

 

 

But I am simply amazed that a whole off-season has gone by and the CF situation (which was/is a grave one) is the same with the exception of Alex Sanchez (no big addition anyway you slice it and dice it).

 

The team with the lowest payroll (by far) in the majors can't find it within their budget to pick up a real CF'r and make this team a legitamate wild card contender.

 

Unreal.

 

Yeah, it's like the Marlins can even find a way to damper the "hope springs eternal" mood of the upcoming spring. :confused

So Beinfest himself mentioned Borchard as at least an option in CF. I hope that at least makes it to the folks who say he has zero chance of working into that spot.

 

 

That's incorrect- he said that Joe Borchard could fill in as needed. He has no chance to be the opening day CFer.

Probably not the opening day CF but he'll probably see action there sometime this year.

What Beinfest said was they went into the off-season targeting a group of centerfield candidates and "the market got away from them", meaning prices skyrocketed over what they valued those players at.

 

Today it was reported the price for Alex Rios was Scott Olsen. Personally, I'd say no too.

 

Beinfest is doing the right thing to wait. Lots of players aren't going to make it onto the 25 man roster coming out of spring training and opportunities will open up. We may have to move a West or equivalent (example only) to get someone but that's a lot better than Scott Olsen or Josh Johnson (no matter how much some people here want to undervalue him). BJ Upton, who some wanted regardless of what it cost is now a laughingstock on TB boards as people admit among themselves he's a grossly overvalued piece of talent (or lack thereof).

BJ Upton, who some wanted regardless of what it cost is now a laughingstock on TB boards as people admit among themselves he's a grossly overvalued piece of talent (or lack thereof).

well, with all due respect to those Rays posters, they're idiots

 

BJ Upton is a premier talent.

What Beinfest said was they went into the off-season targeting a group of centerfield candidates and "the market got away from them", meaning prices skyrocketed over what they valued those players at.

 

Today it was reported the price for Alex Rios was Scott Olsen. Personally, I'd say no too.

 

Beinfest is doing the right thing to wait. Lots of players aren't going to make it onto the 25 man roster coming out of spring training and opportunities will open up. We may have to move a West or equivalent (example only) to get someone but that's a lot better than Scott Olsen or Josh Johnson (no matter how much some people here want to undervalue him). BJ Upton, who some wanted regardless of what it cost is now a laughingstock on TB boards as people admit among themselves he's a grossly overvalued piece of talent (or lack thereof).

 

And, with all due respect, there were people here suggesting Cliff Floyd as a centerfield candidate.

 

Fans are not always intelligent, or a good source of information.

BJ Upton, who some wanted regardless of what it cost is now a laughingstock on TB boards as people admit among themselves he's a grossly overvalued piece of talent (or lack thereof).

well, with all due respect to those Rays posters, they're idiots

 

BJ Upton is a premier talent.

 

Ramp, they ALL can't be idiots. The guy may prove me wrong in spring training and have a line around the ballpark of teams waiting to throw players and $$$ at the Rays, but I've said all along he can't play defense (to major league superstar level - which is some think he is or is on his way to becoming) and until proven otherwise I stand by that. This is the NL where defense counts.

Center field appears to be a virtual toss-up among Alex Sanchez -- who once was a solid player for the Brewers and was signed to a Minor League deal by the Marlins -- Eric Reed and Reggie Abercrombie, who are all speedy options. Also, offensive threats such as Cody Ross or Joe Borchard will be able to fill in when needed.

 

Dear God, no, not Reggie f***ing Abercrombie!

BJ Upton, who some wanted regardless of what it cost is now a laughingstock on TB boards as people admit among themselves he's a grossly overvalued piece of talent (or lack thereof).

well, with all due respect to those Rays posters, they're idiots

 

BJ Upton is a premier talent.

 

Ramp, they ALL can't be idiots. The guy may prove me wrong in spring training and have a line around the ballpark of teams waiting to throw players and $$$ at the Rays, but I've said all along he can't play defense (to major league superstar level - which is some think he is or is on his way to becoming) and until proven otherwise I stand by that. This is the NL where defense counts.

 

And David Ortiz, Jason Giambi, Jose Canseco, Miguel Cabrera, David Wright, etc...can?

 

Defense alone does not determine a players value, and the only reason his defense is sub par was that the Rays foolishly left him at short instead of switching him to the outfield early like the D'Backs did with his brother.

BJ Upton, who some wanted regardless of what it cost is now a laughingstock on TB boards as people admit among themselves he's a grossly overvalued piece of talent (or lack thereof).

well, with all due respect to those Rays posters, they're idiots

 

BJ Upton is a premier talent.

 

Ramp, they ALL can't be idiots. The guy may prove me wrong in spring training and have a line around the ballpark of teams waiting to throw players and $ at the Rays, but I've said all along he can't play defense (to major league superstar level - which is some think he is or is on his way to becoming) and until proven otherwise I stand by that. This is the NL where defense counts.

 

And David Ortiz, Jason Giambi, Jose Canseco, Miguel Cabrera, David Wright, etc...can?

 

Defense alone does not determine a players value, and the only reason his defense is sub par was that the Rays foolishly left him at short instead of switching him to the outfield early like the D'Backs did with his brother.

 

 

Upton could not make a throw from shortstop to first last season to save his life. They are talking about trying him at second base purely because IT'S CLOSER TO FIRST for godsakes :blink: . Cabrera and Wright make plays Upton couldn't in his dreams. The fact you have top bring up Jose Canseco to make your foolish argument says it all.

 

And to compare BJ Upton to David Ortiz? Give me a break. It should be a federal offense, punishable by jail and a fine, to mention the two in the same sentence.

 

The Rays are afraid if he goes to the outfield with his arm he'll be even worse and hence worth even LESS. He has no position. He can't field any position at the major league level or at least has not yet proven he can.

 

When he does, if he does, I will be the first to start a thread to proclaim I was wrong. You understand we actually had people here saying we should trade Dontrelle Willis for him? Sheesh.

Upton could not make a throw from shortstop to first last season to save his life. They are talking about trying him at second base purely because IT'S CLOSER TO FIRST for godsakes :blink: . Cabrera and Wright make plays Upton couldn't in his dreams. The fact you have top bring up Jose Canseco to make your foolish argument says it all.

 

And to compare BJ Upton to David Ortiz? Give me a break. It should be a federal offense, punishable by jail and a fine, to mention the two in the same sentence.

 

The Rays are afraid if he goes to the outfield with his arm he'll be even worse and hence worth even LESS. He has no position. He can't field any position at the major league level or at least has not yet proven he can.

 

When he does, if he does, I will be the first to start a thread to proclaim I was wrong. You understand we actually had people here saying we should trade Dontrelle Willis for him? Sheesh.

And comparing BJ Upton to Chris Aguila is any better? Both are absolutely ridiculous, but if we're talking BJ Upton compared to other CF, or now 2B since you bring it up, he has the bat to potentially be a super star at that position spot like the names Swift mentions (which I'm guessing he meant). This is absolutely a Hanley Ramirez situation, he needs to get out of the organization to a team that can use him and develop him at the MLB level. It's just further proof they are trying to make him a 2B. I understand why, getting some sort of mid .800 OPS bat at 2B in a few years would be something crazy to add to their OF/Longoria/Brignac future core, but is this where BJ is going to end up? Probably not, it's going to be CF and they are just continuing their pattern of poor development issues. Haven't we gone over this before, this is a Tampa Bay front office PLAYER EVALUATION issue and not TALENT. They need to let him shag balls in CF nonstop, be their 4th OF, and DH half the games. Will they though? Nope. They think Ty Wigginton getting 400-500 PA this year is more important then developing Upton or Dukes.

 

If his stock has 'soured' because of all the defensive issues, we need to get him undervalued right now and reap the benefits. As soon as this kid proves he can shag a flyball in the OF or use his speed to cut off random gappers, he skyrockets in value. I'd rather make a trade for him before that happens. Swift was right when he said, TB fudged him up because they didn't move him to the OF earlier. They said the same stuff about Gary Sheffield at SS/3B. He turned out alright. The Marlins should be running to dish Nolasco + P prospect to TB for him. That's all it probably would take if the prospect is Thompson, or G. Hernandez.

You know Lou, you can really be a jerk.

 

I never compared Upton and Aguila's TALENT, rather their situations and circumstances. Let me know when the truth has any validity for you. And if you feel comfortable comparing Upton's so-called potential to Ortiz' realtime proven career, or Wright and Cabrera's defense to Upton's, you only only have yourself to blame for people thinking you foolish.

 

Now you want to compare him to Gary Sheffield??????? OMG

 

Nolasco AND a pitching prospect ????????? Did you run out of meds?

 

As for picking up Upton because his stock is falling is the most ridiculous thing in the world. Obviously you never traded a share of stock in your life. The trading expression is "never try to catch a falling knife...". Enough said.

Nolasco + a prospect in a heartbeat.

And comparing BJ Upton to Chris Aguila is any better? Both are absolutely ridiculous, but if we're talking BJ Upton compared to other CF, or now 2B since you bring it up, he has the bat to potentially be a super star at that position spot like the names Swift mentions (which I'm guessing he meant). This is absolutely a Hanley Ramirez situation, he needs to get out of the organization to a team that can use him and develop him at the MLB level. It's just further proof they are trying to make him a 2B. I understand why, getting some sort of mid .800 OPS bat at 2B in a few years would be something crazy to add to their OF/Longoria/Brignac future core, but is this where BJ is going to end up? Probably not, it's going to be CF and they are just continuing their pattern of poor development issues. Haven't we gone over this before, this is a Tampa Bay front office PLAYER EVALUATION issue and not TALENT. They need to let him shag balls in CF nonstop, be their 4th OF, and DH half the games. Will they though? Nope. They think Ty Wigginton getting 400-500 PA this year is more important then developing Upton or Dukes.

 

If his stock has 'soured' because of all the defensive issues, we need to get him undervalued right now and reap the benefits. As soon as this kid proves he can shag a flyball in the OF or use his speed to cut off random gappers, he skyrockets in value. I'd rather make a trade for him before that happens. Swift was right when he said, TB fudged him up because they didn't move him to the OF earlier. They said the same stuff about Gary Sheffield at SS/3B. He turned out alright. The Marlins should be running to dish Nolasco + P prospect to TB for him. That's all it probably would take if the prospect is Thompson, or G. Hernandez.

BJ Upton will not replace Baldelli in CF ever. And he shouldn't. And on the off chance that TB ever does move Baldelli, he will probably be replaced by Delmon Young, or some other young player who is actually an OF, and has played good OF/CF defense as a pro, rather than a bad IF. I wouldn't say Crawford would be out of the question either, but the point is that Upton has zero chance of becoming a CF in Tampa, and if they were thinking of marketing him as one they should've sent him to play CF in a winter league.

You'll have to clarify what kind of superstar bat you expect him to have too. Comparing him to David Ortiz at this point is a little ridiculous. You are comparing him to a guy who hasn't OPSed below a .950 in the last 4 years and has been over 1.000 the last 2. Upton hasn't even come close to that in the minors. I'm not saying he can't possibly, but he is a long ways off being put into a class of offensive giants whose God-awful defense becomes irrelevant. And even if he was, it wouldn't help us. I don't think we are looking for that type of player to man CF.

And why do we believe that a guy who can't make throws from SS and 3B to 1B will suddenly be throwing guys out from CF? Or that an entire pro-career spent as an IF has better prepared this guy to read balls in the OF better than the Alex Sanchez's and Juan Pierre's of the world? Because I constantly see these guys slammed for their defense by a lot of the same people who want to morgage the unbuilt stadium to bring in Upton. I wouldn't mind getting him if he came cheap. But a ML SP who fills out a solid rotation PLUS another pitching prospect? For a guy who is considered a defensive liability and has never played the position we are looking to fill and has yet to develop into a good ML hitter? Purely on the basis of his minor-league offense?

I never compared Upton and Aguila's TALENT, rather their situations and circumstances. Let me know when the truth has any validity for you.

 

Now you want to compare him to Gary Sheffield??????? OMG

 

Nolasco AND a pitching prospect ????????? Did you run out of meds?

 

As for picking up Upton because his stock is falling is the most ridiculous thing in the world. Obviously you never traded a share of stock in your life. The trading expression is "never try to catch a falling knife...". Enough said.

One of us has run out of our meds today.

 

Cantu and Upton both share "the most likely to be squeezed out of a job" spotlight this upcoming season in Tampa, which might be a good thing for the Rays. Possibly Cantu can find a job at first base where his defensive shortcomings can be held to a minimum, but Upton who failed as a shortstop (as referenced above) to make even routine plays holds little promise in the outfield other than blazing speed, and with a slumping bat at both the minor league and major league levels. He's a faster version of Chris Aguila with less defense. You look at Chris Aguila in the minors and you go OMG this guy is going to tear up the major leagues but he just never is quite able to prove himself. Ditto Upton. Cantu was hurt last season, maybe he'll come back offensively but in the NL I don't think he can excel defensively at 2B which is what the Mets would want.

http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...69983&st=75

 

I'm categorizing this as TALENT versus SITUATION/CIRCUMSTANCE, but hey, keep on trucking.

 

Secondly, Sheffield if you remember was a SS in the minors, tried at 3B, and moved to the OF. Upton was a SS in the minors, has been tried at 3B, apparently at 2B now, and generally speaking, every scout on this planet believes he will end up in the OF. I'm not even suggesting Upton will put forth a hall of fame level career as Sheffield has, but the fact is, a lot and a lot of players moved to the OF and have been fine.

 

Your analogy is stupid as well, because the first rule of any economic market is BUY LOW SELL HIGH.

BJ Upton, who some wanted regardless of what it cost is now a laughingstock on TB boards as people admit among themselves he's a grossly overvalued piece of talent (or lack thereof).

well, with all due respect to those Rays posters, they're idiots

 

BJ Upton is a premier talent.

 

Ramp, they ALL can't be idiots. The guy may prove me wrong in spring training and have a line around the ballpark of teams waiting to throw players and $ at the Rays, but I've said all along he can't play defense (to major league superstar level - which is some think he is or is on his way to becoming) and until proven otherwise I stand by that. This is the NL where defense counts.

 

And David Ortiz, Jason Giambi, Jose Canseco, Miguel Cabrera, David Wright, etc...can?

 

Defense alone does not determine a players value, and the only reason his defense is sub par was that the Rays foolishly left him at short instead of switching him to the outfield early like the D'Backs did with his brother.

 

 

Upton could not make a throw from shortstop to first last season to save his life. They are talking about trying him at second base purely because IT'S CLOSER TO FIRST for godsakes :blink: . Cabrera and Wright make plays Upton couldn't in his dreams. The fact you have top bring up Jose Canseco to make your foolish argument says it all.

 

And to compare BJ Upton to David Ortiz? Give me a break. It should be a federal offense, punishable by jail and a fine, to mention the two in the same sentence.

 

The Rays are afraid if he goes to the outfield with his arm he'll be even worse and hence worth even LESS. He has no position. He can't field any position at the major league level or at least has not yet proven he can.

 

When he does, if he does, I will be the first to start a thread to proclaim I was wrong. You understand we actually had people here saying we should trade Dontrelle Willis for him? Sheesh.

 

I used David Ortiz to prove your "he can't be a superstar if he can't play defense" example. Remember, Ortiz was released before he truley shined...and he is as incapable as anyone of playing defense at the major league level.

 

All the others are viewed as superstars at their positions all while being subpar defenders.

 

No one is disputing that Upton is miscast on the infield, but he could be a ++ outfielder, even if he's only servicable on defense (and for the record, I think he'd be an average or better outfielder, defensively).

That's incorrect- he said that Joe Borchard could fill in as needed. He has no chance to be the opening day CFer.

Oh no! Heaven forbid Joe Borchard can not match the achievements of the great Reggie Abercrombie!

 

I don't much care if he doesn't start there opening day. He is as qualified as anyone on the list, and offensively, he is arguably the best of the group. Especially vs RHP.

BJ Upton will not replace Baldelli in CF ever. And he shouldn't. And on the off chance that TB ever does move Baldelli, he will probably be replaced by Delmon Young, or some other young player who is actually an OF, and has played good OF/CF defense as a pro, rather than a bad IF. I wouldn't say Crawford would be out of the question either, but the point is that Upton has zero chance of becoming a CF in Tampa, and if they were thinking of marketing him as one they should've sent him to play CF in a winter league.

You'll have to clarify what kind of superstar bat you expect him to have too. Comparing him to David Ortiz at this point is a little ridiculous. You are comparing him to a guy who hasn't OPSed below a .950 in the last 4 years and has been over 1.000 the last 2. Upton hasn't even come close to that in the minors. I'm not saying he can't possibly, but he is a long ways off being put into a class of offensive giants whose God-awful defense becomes irrelevant. And even if he was, it wouldn't help us. I don't think we are looking for that type of player to man CF.

And why do we believe that a guy who can't make throws from SS and 3B to 1B will suddenly be throwing guys out from CF? Or that an entire pro-career spent as an IF has better prepared this guy to read balls in the OF better than the Alex Sanchez's and Juan Pierre's of the world? Because I constantly see these guys slammed for their defense by a lot of the same people who want to morgage the unbuilt stadium to bring in Upton. I wouldn't mind getting him if he came cheap. But a ML SP who fills out a solid rotation PLUS another pitching prospect? For a guy who is considered a defensive liability and has never played the position we are looking to fill and has yet to develop into a good ML hitter? Purely on the basis of his minor-league offense?

If Upton turns into a mid .800s OPSing hitter and stealing 40+ bases a year at a great clip (which I view as likely), that's fringe superstar level if he's playing CF or somehow morphs back into a middle infielder. It's called position scarcity, where there are not an abundance of great hitters at those positions. I say TB is idiotic for not making him an OF - and that's regardless of the fact if he'll ever break the Crawford/Rocco/Delmon threesome. You are what you are. You can't force BJ to be something he isn't. And let's say Upton turns into a below average defensive CF like Pierre or A. Sanchez. I personally can live with that if he is a rocking a .280/.360/.475 batting line. As long as he's not terrible terrible in CF (I'm talking worse then Reggie here), his bat will make up the difference HUGE. Soriano couldn't make throws either. He'd be more then adequate in the outfield.

I used David Ortiz to prove your "he can't be a superstar if he can't play defense" example. Remember, Ortiz was released before he truley shined...and he is as incapable as anyone of playing defense at the major league level.

 

All the others are viewed as superstars at their positions all while being subpar defenders.

 

No one is disputing that Upton is miscast on the infield, but he could be a ++ outfielder, even if he's only servicable on defense (and for the record, I think he'd be an average or better outfielder, defensively).

Again - one's offense needs to be on a different level to negate such serious defensive deficiencies. Besides the fact that we cannot DH the guy, he is not on the level of a Manny Ramirez or a David Ortiz. Based on Upton's #s, while his offense might look good, it isn't close to those #s. He is not that good, to use those types of players as examples.

 

Could be a ++ OF? Maybe he would, maybe he would be the same kind of OF as he was an IF. But could be isn't worth the price they are asking for. TB hasn't gone out of their way to prove that he would be either, so they have business pricing him as if he were even an average corner OF. He is a bad IF. With a bad arm. Please explain how that would translate to him being a ++ CF? Why is that more likely in the minds of so many than Upton continuing to play garbage defense in the OF just like he has in the IF?

 

If Upton turns into a mid .800s OPSing hitter and stealing 40+ bases a year at a great clip (which I view as likely), that's fringe superstar level if he's playing CF or somehow morphs back into a middle infielder. It's called position scarcity, where there are not an abundance of great hitters at those positions. I say TB is idiotic for not making him an OF - and that's regardless of the fact if he'll ever break the Crawford/Rocco/Delmon threesome. You are what you are. You can't force BJ to be something he isn't. And let's say Upton turns into a below average defensive CF like Pierre or A. Sanchez. I personally can live with that if he is a rocking a .280/.360/.475 batting line. As long as he's not terrible terrible in CF (I'm talking worse then Reggie here), his bat will make up the difference HUGE. Soriano couldn't make throws either. He'd be more then adequate in the outfield.

So now he's Soriano...And while relatively speaking, I wouldn't mind Soriano in CF, I wouldn't trade pieces of our rotation to play him there.

 

Upton is not an OF. It's not what he is. What he is is a bad defender with good minor league offense. He's got to at least do something well at the ML level before being worth that asking price.

I used David Ortiz to prove your "he can't be a superstar if he can't play defense" example. Remember, Ortiz was released before he truley shined...and he is as incapable as anyone of playing defense at the major league level.

 

All the others are viewed as superstars at their positions all while being subpar defenders.

 

No one is disputing that Upton is miscast on the infield, but he could be a ++ outfielder, even if he's only servicable on defense (and for the record, I think he'd be an average or better outfielder, defensively).

Again - one's offense needs to be on a different level to negate such serious defensive deficiencies. Besides the fact that we cannot DH the guy, he is not on the level of a Manny Ramirez or a David Ortiz. Based on Upton's #s, while his offense might look good, it isn't close to those #s. He is not that good, to use those types of players as examples.

 

Could be a ++ OF? Maybe he would, maybe he would be the same kind of OF as he was an IF. But could be isn't worth the price they are asking for. TB hasn't gone out of their way to prove that he would be either, so they have business pricing him as if he were even an average corner OF. He is a bad IF. With a bad arm. Please explain how that would translate to him being a ++ CF? Why is that more likely in the minds of so many than Upton continuing to play garbage defense in the OF just like he has in the IF?

 

If you can play centerfield without being a complete liability, slug over .400 and steal over 40 bases...you're a ++ player because of the position you're playing. If you can do all that and play great defense, you're a hall of fame caliber player.

 

It's all about the position, not just the numbers.

 

Would his value be maximized if he could prove himself as a middle infielder? Of course, that's why the Rays are desperately trying to make it work, but the sooner they cut their losses and stick him in the outfield, the more valuable a player he'll be.