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Who would in in a series 1997 team or 2003 team?


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C: Johnson v. Rodriguez

Defense: Both were top of game receivers, Johnson's arm in 1997 is better than Rodriguez's in 2003.

Offense: No comparison, Ivan was better in 2003 than Johnson was at any time.

Edge: Slight 2003

 

1B: Conine/Daulton v. Lee

Defense: Conine was great, Daulton less so, but Derek Lee was the best 1B the Marlins have every had play the field

Offense: Conine had a poor year, Daulton not really the greatest, Derek Lee was solid (.887 OPS)

Edge: Strong 2003

 

2B: Counsel v. Castillo

Defense: C ounsel was sound, Luis is Gold Glove

Offense: Similar OBP and SLG, Luis was not a good speed threat in 2003

Edge: Negligible difference

 

3B: Bonilla v. Lowell

Defense: Bonilla was a hack, Lowell was solid

Offense: Lowell was better, and Cabrera was better when filling in

Edge: 2003

 

SS: Edgar Rentaria v. Alex Gonzalez

Defense: Edgar was overrated (and still is), Alex was spectacular

Offense: Alex was better than Edgar, especially 2003 Alex v. 1997 Edgar

Edge: Strong 2003

 

LF: Alou v. Hollandsworth/Cabrera/Conine

Defense: Alou was good, 2003 was a fright show

Offense: Alou pushed .900 OPS, the 2003 crew were all under .800

Edge: 1997 in a rout

 

CF: White v. Pierre

Defense: White could throw, Pierre... not so much

Offense: Pierre got on base more, managed more slg, was better on the basepaths

Edge: Solid 2003

 

RF: Sheff v. Encarnacion/Cabrera

Defense: Sheff was underrated, Juan was overrated. Sheff had a better arm, Juan had better range

Offense: Sheff's 'disappointing' year brought an .870 OPS, Encarnacion was a cancer, a black pit in the heart of the order where runs went to die, he was the sh*tty hitter that everyone said Sea Bass was. Cabs was better, but still no comparison to Sheff

Edge: 1997, by a lot, a whole lot, so much that it almost eats up the C, 1B and 3B advantages of 2003

 

Starting Pitching:

2003: Beckett, Penny, Redman, Pavano

1997: Brown, Saunders, Leiter, Hernandez

Edge: The 2003 team is just better. Redman had a poor start, but so did Leiter, Brown, and Saunders

 

Bullpen:

2003: Looper, Urbina, Fox, Helling, Willis

1997: Nen, Powell, Heredia, Alfonseca, Cook, Vosberg

Edge: I wish this team had a bullpen that compared to those! 1997 has the edge, but not as much as one might think.

 

Bench:

2003: Encarnacion, Hollandsworth, Redmond, Fox, Mordecai

1997: Eisenreich, Arias, Abbot, Cangelosi, Conine/Daulton, Floyd, Zaun

Edge: 1997 was better. Eisenreich, Abbot, Arias and Floyd are the 4 best guys listed

 

Manager: Leyland v. McKeon

I don't think much of McKeon's actual game management but he was the right guy at the right time as far as motivation goes. Leyland managed some masterful affairs in the series.

Edge: 1997

 

I'd go with 2003 due to depth in the starting lineup.

 

Pierre, Castillo, Rodriguez, Cabrera, Lee, Lowell, Conine, Gonzalez

just lines up better than

Council, Rentaria, Sheffield, Alou, Bonilla, White, Conine/Daulton, Johnson

 

And the rotation for the 2003 team is better step by step, and the bullpens are both solid once starters get into them.

 

I don't see the great bench advantage of the 1997 team making up the gap.

 

Also, the 2003 Yankees (101 wins in a tough division) were far superior to the 97 Indians (86 wins in a crap division). The Yankees had better pitching, as good of a lineup and a better bench. Even with the injury to Giambi the offense was better, and scored more runs.

 

You make some good points, but you think Alex Gonzalez was better

offensively than Renteria? :blink:

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You make some good points, but you think Alex Gonzalez was better

offensively than Renteria? :blink:

 

Best part is, I don't have to think, I can just look at the facts. Alex in 2003 was better than Edgar in 1997, and not just a little better either, a lot better.

 

1997 Edgar Rentaria: OBP: .327 SLG: .340 for an OPS of .667 aka the suck

2003 Alex Gonzales: OBP: .313 SLG: .443 for and OPS of .756 aka good for the position

 

Edgar batted 2nd before Sheffield, Alex in the 8 hole. There is no comparison.

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You make some good points, but you think Alex Gonzalez was better

offensively than Renteria? :blink:

 

Best part is, I don't have to think, I can just look at the facts. Alex in 2003 was better than Edgar in 1997, and not just a little better either, a lot better.

 

1997 Edgar Rentaria: OBP: .327 SLG: .340 for an OPS of .667 aka the suck

2003 Alex Gonzales: OBP: .313 SLG: .443 for and OPS of .756 aka good for the position

 

Edgar batted 2nd before Sheffield, Alex in the 8 hole. There is no comparison.

 

I don't know, Edgar had a higher batting average and I remember Alex totally

sucking and pissing me off more than half the time. I'd take Edgar over

Alex anyday.

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I don't know, Edgar had a higher batting average and I remember Alex totally

sucking and pissing me off more than half the time. I'd take Edgar over

Alex anyday.

 

Batting average is not a worthwhile stat when OBP and SLG are available. I'd certainly take Edgar Renteria over Alex Gonzelez, but not 1997 Edgar over 2003 Alex.

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I don't know, Edgar had a higher batting average and I remember Alex totally

sucking and pissing me off more than half the time. I'd take Edgar over

Alex anyday.

 

Batting average is not a worthwhile stat when OBP and SLG are available. I'd certainly take Edgar Renteria over Alex Gonzelez, but not 1997 Edgar over 2003 Alex.

 

Edgar's OBP was also higher than Alex, plus it was only like his second year

in the majors.

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1B: Conine/Daulton v. Lee

Defense: Conine was great, Daulton less so, but Derek Lee was the best 1B the Marlins have every had play the field

Offense: Conine had a poor year, Daulton not really the greatest, Derek Lee was solid (.887 OPS)

Edge: Strong 2003

 

2B: Counsel v. Castillo

Defense: C ounsel was sound, Luis is Gold Glove

Offense: Similar OBP and SLG, Luis was not a good speed threat in 2003

Edge: Negligible difference

 

 

SS: Edgar Rentaria v. Alex Gonzalez

Defense: Edgar was overrated (and still is), Alex was spectacular

Offense: Alex was better than Edgar, especially 2003 Alex v. 1997 Edgar

Edge: Strong 2003

 

 

Manager: Leyland v. McKeon

I don't think much of McKeon's actual game management but he was the right guy at the right time as far as motivation goes. Leyland managed some masterful affairs in the series.

Edge: 1997

 

You got Second and SS wrong. The manager & 1B is a toss up.

 

First Base: Just forget Daulton. When it comes to Conine Vs DLee. To me it could go either way. DLee didn't start having his great seasons till he left the Fish, when he was with them he was inconsistent. DLee was better on the defensive end, but offensively I feel Conine was more consistent. To close to call.

 

Second Base: Luis was way better than counsel. Luis just brought better offense and more speed on the base paths. and of course Castillo's defense was awesome. Castillo wins.

 

Short Stop: Gonzalez was a stud on defense, no one can take that away from him, but Edgar wasn't so bad himself. also Edgar was much better Offensively. Edgar was the most clutch out of anyone on the 97' team. Edgar wins.

 

Manager: If you look at the 97' team on paper, it looks like a All 90's team. To me Leyland underachieved big time with this team. We should have won the pennant that year. McKeon on the other hand comes in the middle of the year to a sub .500 ball club takes them all the way to the playoffs beats a better opponent in the WS in 6 games. Just judging McKeon on his 03 season (not 04 & 05). i think you have to give Mckeon the edge.

 

Who do you think was the more clutch hitter Pudge or Edgar?

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You got Second and SS wrong. The manager & 1B is a toss up.

 

First Base: Just forget Daulton. When it comes to Conine Vs DLee. To me it could go either way. DLee didn't start having his great seasons till he left the Fish, when he was with them he was inconsistent. DLee was better on the defensive end, but offensively I feel Conine was more consistent. To close to call.

 

D Lee had a .887 OPS. Jeff Conine had a .742 OPS. So not only are you wrong that DLee didn't have great seasons until he left the Marlins, you are also incorrect in calling 1997's Conine more consistent, unless you meant consistently bad. BTW, Derek Lee's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best seasons were as a Fish. Only his 2005 monster in Chicago is better than his time with the Fish. He is another case of us not appreciating what we had.

 

Second Base: Luis was way better than counsel. Luis just brought better offense and more speed on the base paths. and of course Castillo's defense was awesome. Castillo wins.

 

Except the numbers don't bear you out. 1997 Counsel had a .773 OPS including a .376 OBP, Luis had a .778 OPS and a .381 OBP. The numbers are so close that the distinction is meaningless. Considering that Luis was thrown out 19 times on the basepaths, that erases any defensive edge.

 

Short Stop: Gonzalez was a stud on defense, no one can take that away from him, but Edgar wasn't so bad himself. also Edgar was much better Offensively. Edgar was the most clutch out of anyone on the 97' team. Edgar wins.

It isn't like Alex didn't have an important walk-off WS hit. He is one of only 13 persons to hit a walk-off homer in the WS. I don't have the 1997 RISP numbers available, but Gonzalez not only had a better OPS but he put up more RBIs from a worse batting position.

 

Manager: If you look at the 97' team on paper, it looks like a All 90's team. To me Leyland underachieved big time with this team. We should have won the pennant that year. McKeon on the other hand comes in the middle of the year to a sub .500 ball club takes them all the way to the playoffs beats a better opponent in the WS in 6 games. Just judging McKeon on his 03 season (not 04 & 05). i think you have to give Mckeon the edge.

 

We did win the pennant, we were National League Champions. I can see the argument for McKeon because he was, as I said, the right guy for the right time. I just don't agree with it.

Who do you think was the more clutch hitter Pudge or Edgar?

 

Despite 'clutch' being a myth, I'd have to go with Pudge. Edgar is remembered as 'clutch' for one hit, Pudge carried the team to the world series by coming up big again and again.

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Who do you think was the more clutch hitter Pudge or Edgar?

 

Despite 'clutch' being a myth, I'd have to go with Pudge. Edgar is remembered as 'clutch' for one hit, Pudge carried the team to the world series by coming up big again and again.

That season Renteria had several game winning hits. I'm pretty certain that in '97 he had more game winning hits in the 9th inning or later than any other player. I don't know how you can just blow that off as if it doesn't matter.

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The 2003 team was much deeper and better defensively. I loved Brown and Leiter as 1 and 2, but I still have to say 2003 Marlins all the way

Leiter was the #3 pitcher for the season and Leyland didn't seem to like using him much.

As for some comparisons between players 03 Luis was miles ahead of 97 Counsell, true Luis wasn't a big threat to steal in 03 but he led the team in sacrifices and what can you say defensively he won a Gold Glove.

Whether Renteria was clutch is hardly a question either he came up big in game one of NLDS and again in game seven and at least a half a dozen other times during the season, remarkable for a second year player.

Overall I would give the advantage to 2003 for its defense, otherwise their both about even offense and pitchingwise.

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Who do you think was the more clutch hitter Pudge or Edgar?

 

Despite 'clutch' being a myth, I'd have to go with Pudge. Edgar is remembered as 'clutch' for one hit, Pudge carried the team to the world series by coming up big again and again.

 

Umm...Edgar ended the 1st game of the playoffs with a walkoff single as well. I'd hardly say it was just one hit.

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