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Ok, saying Willingham is the best defender on the team is stretching it but I feel he has been less detrimental to the overall defensive play than the rest of the more talented players. Willy hasnt been all bad at LF and compared to the rest of the guys he has been pretty decent. Regardless on my opinion of Willy in LF, the intent of the post was to discuss the overall defense and IF this group of guys now or in the future can win. Like Das said, 'defense is desire', the defense wasnt this poor last season. Uggla, Miggy, Ramirez all had decent seasons with the glove why is it that this season they seem like they cant get it done.

 

What's worse is that the defense makes our pitchers have to work that much harder. Look at the game against the Indians on Wednesday night. If Uggla doesnt throw away the ball into the dugout and Hermida holds on to the ball that HIT is glove than the Marlins get out of that inning with a 3-1 lead instead of a 6-3 deficit. Kim was on fire that night and two big screwups led to 5 unearned runs.

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You can't possibly be serious to blame Ramirez' defensive struggles on the first baseman when he has significant problems even getting the ball in his glove nevermind throwing to first.

 

Yes, a better firstbaseman can save his fellow infielders a number of errors over a season, and Hanley may improve over time or he may still have an injury we don't know about but he simply cannot or will not go to his right and his range this season has decreased markedly (which is why I've thought for some time he may be playing with a strain or perhaps a shoulder issue and has been told to not go diving all over the place). Hanley isn't emailing *airmailing* throws because of Boone, he's emailing *airmailing* throws because HE's airmailing throws.

 

 

We can debate Jacobs (who looked to be much improved in the few weeks we saw him this season but who knows??) and Amezaga who I personally don't think has a significant range issue but rather still is adjusting to the outfield and isn't getting proper jumps. I wish I understood the Marlins thinking last winter when they let Amezaga play almost exclusively in the infield as opposed to polishing his outfield skills (he didn't play in the outfield I believe until the playoffs or nearly so).

 

As for Hanley and his defensive problems, it isn't always the other guy's fault. This idea that when Ramirez makes an error we should start looking for someone else to blame ignores the reality that this season he just isn't very good.

 

Hanley does have the range to his right. There is a problem when he goes that way and Miggy is going to his left. Miggy dosen't even make an attempt at the ball and is basically just blocking Hanley's line of sight on it. Sure, he will misfire it. Or attempt throws that he should hold onto. But he's only in his second year. It takes more time than that to make a GGer out of him. I would still like to see him play 3B but I don't think anyone has convinced Miggy it's his idea to move to 1B yet.

Saying Hammer is our best defensive player is shouting out that you are a stats watcher and don't pay attention to the games. Until I look over and see how he reacts to a ball hit his way I hold my breath as much as I do when a dribbler is hit down the 3B line.

 

I'm not here to defend anyone's defense. I think both Hanley and Miguel have been poor defensively so far this season. But when you mention that Hanley is only in his 2nd year at shortstop, you've got to consider that it's only Miggy's second at 3rd.

....at the Major League level.

 

What position did Hanley play prior to the major leagues?

Shortstop. That's what I'm saying, the years you listed are only the years they've played at the Major League Level, not counting all those they played in the minors or in school. The mechanics and plays don't change much from level-to-level, so I don't think not being seasoned enough at their spots, like you suggested, is a valid reason for their poor defense.

Geemoney, that was BroncoBob's defense of Hanley, and I was merely saying that if he wants to use that to defend Hanley, then he must consider the same argument for Cabrera as well.

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You can't possibly be serious to blame Ramirez' defensive struggles on the first baseman when he has significant problems even getting the ball in his glove nevermind throwing to first.

 

Yes, a better firstbaseman can save his fellow infielders a number of errors over a season, and Hanley may improve over time or he may still have an injury we don't know about but he simply cannot or will not go to his right and his range this season has decreased markedly (which is why I've thought for some time he may be playing with a strain or perhaps a shoulder issue and has been told to not go diving all over the place). Hanley isn't emailing *airmailing* throws because of Boone, he's emailing *airmailing* throws because HE's airmailing throws.

 

 

We can debate Jacobs (who looked to be much improved in the few weeks we saw him this season but who knows??) and Amezaga who I personally don't think has a significant range issue but rather still is adjusting to the outfield and isn't getting proper jumps. I wish I understood the Marlins thinking last winter when they let Amezaga play almost exclusively in the infield as opposed to polishing his outfield skills (he didn't play in the outfield I believe until the playoffs or nearly so).

 

As for Hanley and his defensive problems, it isn't always the other guy's fault. This idea that when Ramirez makes an error we should start looking for someone else to blame ignores the reality that this season he just isn't very good.

 

Hanley does have the range to his right. There is a problem when he goes that way and Miggy is going to his left. Miggy dosen't even make an attempt at the ball and is basically just blocking Hanley's line of sight on it. Sure, he will misfire it. Or attempt throws that he should hold onto. But he's only in his second year. It takes more time than that to make a GGer out of him. I would still like to see him play 3B but I don't think anyone has convinced Miggy it's his idea to move to 1B yet.

Saying Hammer is our best defensive player is shouting out that you are a stats watcher and don't pay attention to the games. Until I look over and see how he reacts to a ball hit his way I hold my breath as much as I do when a dribbler is hit down the 3B line.

 

I'm not here to defend anyone's defense. I think both Hanley and Miguel have been poor defensively so far this season. But when you mention that Hanley is only in his 2nd year at shortstop, you've got to consider that it's only Miggy's second at 3rd.

....at the Major League level.

 

What position did Hanley play prior to the major leagues?

Shortstop. That's what I'm saying, the years you listed are only the years they've played at the Major League Level, not counting all those they played in the minors or in school. The mechanics and plays don't change much from level-to-level, so I don't think not being seasoned enough at their spots, like you suggested, is a valid reason for their poor defense.

Geemoney, that was BroncoBob's defense of Hanley, and I was merely saying that if he wants to use that to defend Hanley, then he must consider the same argument for Cabrera as well.

I see. That's what I get for not reading every post I guess.

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Ok, saying Willingham is the best defender on the team is stretching it but I feel he has been less detrimental to the overall defensive play than the rest of the more talented players. Willy hasnt been all bad at LF and compared to the rest of the guys he has been pretty decent. Regardless on my opinion of Willy in LF, the intent of the post was to discuss the overall defense and IF this group of guys now or in the future can win. Like Das said, 'defense is desire', the defense wasnt this poor last season. Uggla, Miggy, Ramirez all had decent seasons with the glove why is it that this season they seem like they cant get it done.

 

What's worse is that the defense makes our pitchers have to work that much harder. Look at the game against the Indians on Wednesday night. If Uggla doesnt throw away the ball into the dugout and Hermida holds on to the ball that HIT is glove than the Marlins get out of that inning with a 3-1 lead instead of a 6-3 deficit. Kim was on fire that night and two big screwups led to 5 unearned runs.

Das may say that "defense is desire". Sounds good, like "our guys want it more" or "we play with more(or less) heart". Fact is, defense, like offense and pitching, is more skill than anything else. And our present defense does not have the level of skill needed, nor do they appear to have an underlying talent that's going to take time to develop. In short, we can't win now or ever with this defense.

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Ok, saying Willingham is the best defender on the team is stretching it but I feel he has been less detrimental to the overall defensive play than the rest of the more talented players. Willy hasnt been all bad at LF and compared to the rest of the guys he has been pretty decent. Regardless on my opinion of Willy in LF, the intent of the post was to discuss the overall defense and IF this group of guys now or in the future can win. Like Das said, 'defense is desire', the defense wasnt this poor last season. Uggla, Miggy, Ramirez all had decent seasons with the glove why is it that this season they seem like they cant get it done.

 

What's worse is that the defense makes our pitchers have to work that much harder. Look at the game against the Indians on Wednesday night. If Uggla doesnt throw away the ball into the dugout and Hermida holds on to the ball that HIT is glove than the Marlins get out of that inning with a 3-1 lead instead of a 6-3 deficit. Kim was on fire that night and two big screwups led to 5 unearned runs.

Das may say that "defense is desire". Sounds good, like "our guys want it more" or "we play with more(or less) heart". Fact is, defense, like offense and pitching, is more skill than anything else. And our present defense does not have the level of skill needed, nor do they appear to have an underlying talent that's going to take time to develop. In short, we can't win now or ever with this defense.

 

I don't think anyone would call the 2006 Cardinals a great defensive team, and I think some would argue that they're a stretch to be considered slightly above average.

 

Not saying that's my stance, but there are people out there (now, most of them are of the Jim Edmonds is a hot-dog and Eckstein can't throw to first sect) that believe that.

 

Personally, I think this team's defense is not what's standing between it and a championship. To say that suggests a major overhaul is necessary, personally, I think the defense ceases to even be an issue with a quality catcher and 1st baseman.

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I don't think anyone would call the 2006 Cardinals a great defensive team, and I think some would argue that they're a stretch to be considered slightly above average.

 

Not saying that's my stance, but there are people out there (now, most of them are of the Jim Edmonds is a hot-dog and Eckstein can't throw to first sect) that believe that.

 

Personally, I think this team's defense is not what's standing between it and a championship. To say that suggests a major overhaul is necessary, personally, I think the defense ceases to even be an issue with a quality catcher and 1st baseman.

 

Taking a jab at me with this post swifty? Edmonds is a hot dog, and he is now an average defensive OF...still a hot dog, just not anywhere near as good as he used to be when he could afford to be a hot dog. Never said Eckstein cant throw to first but he has to put everything hes got into it and is overall probably the worst defensive SS in baseball, but thats neither here nor there.

 

The defense will improve. Young team, mental gaffes happen. Having Olivo who is among if not the worst defensively at his position, Boone playing 1st for the first time in his career and a revolving door of mediocrity in CF mixed in with a new infield coach...problems will happen. It should also sort themselves out with time.

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I'm not here to defend anyone's defense. I think both Hanley and Miguel have been poor defensively so far this season. But when you mention that Hanley is only in his 2nd year at shortstop, you've got to consider that it's only Miggy's second at 3rd.

 

Yes it is. And I wouldn't be bashing on his D so consistently if he showed like he wanted to be there instead of all this lackadaisical play we get from him. A team that is built on pitching and defense has a very weak hot corner. If even half of those balls that he could have at least gotten to and didn't try had been called errors then even the stat heads would be calling for a position change. And this play is from a guy that basically pouted when he had to play the OF because Lowell came back. I stick by my assesment. A prima donna playing a blue collar position. But his play will once again pick up towards the end of the season. He goes into arbitrtion again this off season.

 

Geemoney, that was BroncoBob's defense of Hanley, and I was merely saying that if he wants to use that to defend Hanley, then he must consider the same argument for Cabrera as well.

 

Okay. You still aren't getting it. I'll take the throwing errors from a guy that at least is trying. Those kind of errors are to be expected when learning to play at this level. Throws that maybe would have been better throws if they hadn't been thrown at all. That comes with experience at the major league level. Players are faster and more savvy at this level of competition. Some throws are rushed and they tend to turn into errors. Miggy's idea is if he dosen't even try for a ball his stats don't suffer. That is unacceptable.

Go back to the Saturday line up for the rest of IL play in AL parks. Miggy DHing, Wood at 1B and Boone at 3B.

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I'm not here to defend anyone's defense. I think both Hanley and Miguel have been poor defensively so far this season. But when you mention that Hanley is only in his 2nd year at shortstop, you've got to consider that it's only Miggy's second at 3rd.

 

Yes it is. And I wouldn't be bashing on his D so consistently if he showed like he wanted to be there instead of all this lackadaisical play we get from him. A team that is built on pitching and defense has a very weak hot corner. If even half of those balls that he could have at least gotten to and didn't try had been called errors then even the stat heads would be calling for a position change. And this play is from a guy that basically pouted when he had to play the OF because Lowell came back. I stick by my assesment. A prima donna playing a blue collar position. But his play will once again pick up towards the end of the season. He goes into arbitrtion again this off season.

 

Geemoney, that was BroncoBob's defense of Hanley, and I was merely saying that if he wants to use that to defend Hanley, then he must consider the same argument for Cabrera as well.

 

Okay. You still aren't getting it. I'll take the throwing errors from a guy that at least is trying. Those kind of errors are to be expected when learning to play at this level. Throws that maybe would have been better throws if they hadn't been thrown at all. That comes with experience at the major league level. Players are faster and more savvy at this level of competition. Some throws are rushed and they tend to turn into errors. Miggy's idea is if he dosen't even try for a ball his stats don't suffer. That is unacceptable.

Go back to the Saturday line up for the rest of IL play in AL parks. Miggy DHing, Wood at 1B and Boone at 3B.

 

See, this is where we disagree. I don't buy your opinion that Cabrera's not trying. And I certainly don't believe Miggy is thinking about which plays will affect his stats while he's on the field. He doesn't seem like a selfish player to me. He's not nimble at third, and he has a harder time going to his left. But he's actually made some great plays to his right this season. He looks slow and "lazy" at there at times because of his weight, at least IMO. Even when Cabs walks off the field, he lumbers. And are you telling me you haven't seen lackadaisical play from Hanley???

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I disagree with your assessment.

 

Uggla is probably the best defensive player on our team and the only players I'd put as below average are Jacobs, Amezaga (because of range issues) and Olivo.

 

Hanley and Miggy would be 10000000 times better with simply an average first baseman. After the Tuesday game where Boone was unable to pick at all, you saw Hanley start airmailing throws. The quality of firstbaseman has a TREMENDOUS impact on the overall infield defense. Simply putting a Doug Mientkiewicz on the infield, to say nothing of Derrek Lee, precludes any talk of subpar infield defense, and I truly believe that.

Very good point Swift! I like Ramirez skills at SS but the infield is anchored by the 1st baseman. Uggla is a steady glove at 2nd base. Ramirez problem has been his mobility and that is getting better. He has the strongest arm of anyone, His reflexes do seem a little slow sometimes. I agree with you everywhere else position-wise. My feelings on Amezaga's defense are no secret here. He makes the easy plays hard. He doesnt glide to the ball he chases the ball. That is why he seems to make tough defensive plays. He misplays them to begin with and has to overcompensate

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Hermida's was bad, but Boone's was the meltdown.

 

I can't say it enough. An above average defensive first baseman and defense takes a tenfold leap forward.

This is so very true. We need to get a Loney/Kotchman type 1b who can pick it at 1b as well as a CF and a C in a Dontrelle trade.

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i mean at some point someone in the organization has to address this problem. at this point it's beyond absurd. no reason a young teams defense should get worse in year two. it's the first case of the sophomore fielding slump.

if i were andy fox, id do infield and outfield(especially that guy in right field) defensive practice instead of BP...may not excite the fans...but our team would be better

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Hermida's was bad, but Boone's was the meltdown.

 

I can't say it enough. An above average defensive first baseman and defense takes a tenfold leap forward.

I can see how 2 different sets of eyes can see things differently.

To me, tonight was a case where Jermaine Dye simply outplayed a hapless Hermida.

And I've looked at the replay a few times on the JJ-Boone play, and I see JJ throwing a down and away slider to first that even DLee wouldn't snag. Boone's not good, or even average, but he shouldn't have any fault in this situation.

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See, this is where we disagree. I don't buy your opinion that Cabrera's not trying. And I certainly don't believe Miggy is thinking about which plays will affect his stats while he's on the field. He doesn't seem like a selfish player to me. He's not nimble at third, and he has a harder time going to his left. But he's actually made some great plays to his right this season. He looks slow and "lazy" at there at times because of his weight, at least IMO. Even when Cabs walks off the field, he lumbers. And are you telling me you haven't seen lackadaisical play from Hanley???

 

You are going to stick up for Miggy no matter what. He is obviously your fav player. So we will always disagree on him. I don't find that such a big deal because at least you are handling it in a mature manner. ie... Just discussing our differences without the obligatory name calling, etc...

However, my opinion is not going to change either. He looks slow and lazy because he is slow and lazy. He will show up to games when he is excited about that game. Take the last home games vs the Phillies as a great example. He did great. Moving both directions, diving for balls, making the attempts to throw to 1B, etc... But on a normal every day basis?? Not until we near the end of the season and he has those $$$ flashing in his eyes because of the next arbitration hearing.

Lackadaisical play from Hanley??? Sure. Once in a great while. Just like every other player on the team. That comes from a 162 game season. But with Miggy it is the norm instead of the rarity. It has far less to do with his weight as it does with his attitude. And his attitude hasn't changed all that much since his "(bleep) the veterans" remark back in '03.

 

Hermida's was bad, but Boone's was the meltdown.

 

I can't say it enough. An above average defensive first baseman and defense takes a tenfold leap forward.

I can see how 2 different sets of eyes can see things differently.

To me, tonight was a case where Jermaine Dye simply outplayed a hapless Hermida.

And I've looked at the replay a few times on the JJ-Boone play, and I see JJ throwing a down and away slider to first that even DLee wouldn't snag. Boone's not good, or even average, but he shouldn't have any fault in this situation.

 

Agreed. Boone is taking some unwarranted flak. And even tho I am not a big Jeremy fan I am cutting him some slack so far. Because of his injuries last year and this year I still look at him as a rookie OFer learning the ropes of his position. Let's see him stay healthy for a couple months straight before we really start smacking him around.

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Boone is taking some unwarranted flak. And even tho I am not a big Jeremy fan I am cutting him some slack so far. Because of his injuries last year and this year I still look at him as a rookie OFer learning the ropes of his position. Let's see him stay healthy for a couple months straight before we really start smacking him around.

I agree about Boone but disagree about Jeremy. I may be wrong but I believe he played RF his entire minor league career so I don't think it's fair to say he's still learnign the position. If you said that about Hammer who began playing LF last year I would buy it but Jeremy was drafted 5 years ago so he's played RF 5 years. He takes poor routes, has trouble catching the ball and he doesn't have a particularly accurate arm.

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finally someone addressing the situation:

CHICAGO -- Exceptional fielding was a major reason the Marlins won the World Series in 2003.

The organization certainly underscores the importance of defense, which is a big reason why there is disappointment in the team's fielding statistics.

 

Entering Tuesday night's game at the Chicago White Sox, Florida ranked last in Major League baseball in fielding percentage (.976) and errors committed (64).

 

Two critical errors in the fourth inning Monday led to four unearned runs scoring in Florida's 10-6 loss at U.S. Cellular Field.

 

"I'd like to see the defense improve," general manager Admin Beinfest said. "I think the organization takes a lot of pride in pitching and defense. We've been out front with that. We need to support our pitching with better defense. Last night was a great example. You see what defense can do for you."

 

Beinfest was pointing out the fact that White Sox right fielder Jermaine Dye made two exceptional catches, while Florida's defense floundered.

 

"Dye makes those two great plays that really changed a big portion of that game," Beinfest said. "That's something we'll work on, the coaching staff, [manager] Fredi [Gonzalez], everybody."

 

"We need to keep working at it. We think we're better than we've shown. With defense, it is something you have to take pride in, and it's something you have to work at every day. That's what they're doing."

 

Aside from Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis, the rest of the 2003 title team is gone. With a younger lineup, the organization realizes there will be growing pains. A year ago, the team's defense had rough edges, but showed improvement.

 

This year, the defense has been up and down.

 

"Last year, we had a little downturn in the defense. It was ranked low," Beinfest said. "It's not an area we want to be in. Right now, we're last. In the long run, it's not going to be acceptable, but in the short term I think it can improve, and I think it will improve."

 

Beinfest noted that the '03 team played great defense, and the end result was a championship.

 

"We talk about creating your own opportunities, and not giving your opponent their own opportunities," the Marlins GM said. "There have been some bleeders and seeing-eye hits on this trip. What happens is, when you add extra baserunners due to the errors or other circumstances, it comes back to bite you. That's what's happened to us lately, and it needs to improve. When it does, the game will take care of you. We'll start getting some bleeders, and Hanley [Ramirez] will hit the ball hard and they will start falling. But you have to do things right in order to take advantage of those opportunities when they come back around."

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Boone is taking some unwarranted flak. And even tho I am not a big Jeremy fan I am cutting him some slack so far. Because of his injuries last year and this year I still look at him as a rookie OFer learning the ropes of his position. Let's see him stay healthy for a couple months straight before we really start smacking him around.

I agree about Boone but disagree about Jeremy. I may be wrong but I believe he played RF his entire minor league career so I don't think it's fair to say he's still learnign the position. If you said that about Hammer who began playing LF last year I would buy it but Jeremy was drafted 5 years ago so he's played RF 5 years. He takes poor routes, has trouble catching the ball and he doesn't have a particularly accurate arm.

 

I could care in the least what they did in the minors.

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