In the "You Never Really Know What's Going on Behind

[BroncoBob27]

hmm.... I saw Castillo play in the ST opener vs the nats. He made some nice plays at third.

 

I tnink Cantu also made a couple nice plays in that game.

[BroncoBob27]

I believe the reason third base is seen as important defensively is because a good and mobile third baseman (the thinking goes), makes Hanley a better shortstop so it's sort of a two'fer.

 

That's my thinking exactly. Often on these boards I contributed some of Hanley's errors last year to lackadaisical play at 3B. Defense is the team aspect of the sport and every guy out there has to be confident in the other guys. Not knowing if that guy to your right is going to make an actual attempt at the ball or just wave at it as it goes by can cause you to do things you really shouldn't.

 

I'm surprised at the Castillo move. If there really has been one. It would be interesting to know if it was because of work ethic, personality conflict, or whatever. But I doubt that it ever really comes out.

[Mephisto]

Castillo has not being cut. I think that the fish just put him on waivers to see what other teams might offer for him. Teams do this all the time, remember a couple ago when Andrew Jones was placed on waivers?

[bobbob1313]

Is Cantu just a VERY minor upgrade over Castillo?

 

I find that hard to believe.

 

In his best season, Cantu was worth 4.4 wins according to WARP3. That season, appears to be a statistical aberration because his minor and major league record indicate nothing but one 400 at bat stint in AAA that show he can sustain that type of offensive production.

 

Castillo's career high WARP3 is 2.8, and his minor league record shows that he can at least play a bit better than he has thus far. He is also the superior defensive player.

 

Cantu's career high OPS is about 80 points higher than Castillo's, but there's no indication he can repeat that again. Castillo appears to have somewhat limited upside.

 

(Plus, everyone goes on about this great season Cantu had. It wasn't really that great of a season, mostly due to his complete unwillingness to take a walk.)

yeah well, a .706 slg will earn you the benefit of the doubt, specially when you already have a 28 homer season on your resume.

 

It's interesting how a player can be discounted because he had just "one season" where he showed a very good deal of offensive output. I think its easy to combine a person's minor league record and say "aha, this is what this guy has done and therefore what this guy will do". I think you need to consider the circumstances behind what you're saying. Cantu had his "coming out" season at AAA Durham at age 22. Yes, everything else before that was pathetic indeed. You look at Castillo and see the inverse; great numbers before age 22 at the lower levels but a not-so-great season at AA at that age. Castillo was given plenty of chances at the big league level and has bombed ever since, while Cantu blossomed in 2005 and suffered an ankle injury in 2006 which hindered him all season long (we all saw that with Jacobs didn't we?). In 07, he had to actually compete for his job if I recall and I think it was Upton who supplanted him. I just don't see the love for Castillo when he has blown it against the tougher competition while Cantu has been very successful in the higher levels of professional baseball WHEN healthy. I don't think its fair to knock someone because they just happened to "click" at a certain time and didn't always display that potential before.

 

Also, I see people here giving too much focus on defense at 3rd. Its as if those 137 errors were committed there alone; this was a COMBINATION of bad defense. From what I see, most of the main guys who committed those errors are going to be back, so why just hold it against Cantu? Plug the man in and let him hack away, because judging from where he is going to hit its not a big deal if he isn't that big of a walk guy anyway.

 

Except Cantu's "One season" isn't all that special.

[BlackaWhacka]

Is Cantu just a VERY minor upgrade over Castillo?

 

I find that hard to believe.

 

In his best season, Cantu was worth 4.4 wins according to WARP3. That season, appears to be a statistical aberration because his minor and major league record indicate nothing but one 400 at bat stint in AAA that show he can sustain that type of offensive production.

 

Castillo's career high WARP3 is 2.8, and his minor league record shows that he can at least play a bit better than he has thus far. He is also the superior defensive player.

 

Cantu's career high OPS is about 80 points higher than Castillo's, but there's no indication he can repeat that again. Castillo appears to have somewhat limited upside.

 

(Plus, everyone goes on about this great season Cantu had. It wasn't really that great of a season, mostly due to his complete unwillingness to take a walk.)

yeah well, a .706 slg will earn you the benefit of the doubt, specially when you already have a 28 homer season on your resume.

 

It's interesting how a player can be discounted because he had just "one season" where he showed a very good deal of offensive output. I think its easy to combine a person's minor league record and say "aha, this is what this guy has done and therefore what this guy will do". I think you need to consider the circumstances behind what you're saying. Cantu had his "coming out" season at AAA Durham at age 22. Yes, everything else before that was pathetic indeed. You look at Castillo and see the inverse; great numbers before age 22 at the lower levels but a not-so-great season at AA at that age. Castillo was given plenty of chances at the big league level and has bombed ever since, while Cantu blossomed in 2005 and suffered an ankle injury in 2006 which hindered him all season long (we all saw that with Jacobs didn't we?). In 07, he had to actually compete for his job if I recall and I think it was Upton who supplanted him. I just don't see the love for Castillo when he has blown it against the tougher competition while Cantu has been very successful in the higher levels of professional baseball WHEN healthy. I don't think its fair to knock someone because they just happened to "click" at a certain time and didn't always display that potential before.

 

Also, I see people here giving too much focus on defense at 3rd. Its as if those 137 errors were committed there alone; this was a COMBINATION of bad defense. From what I see, most of the main guys who committed those errors are going to be back, so why just hold it against Cantu? Plug the man in and let him hack away, because judging from where he is going to hit its not a big deal if he isn't that big of a walk guy anyway.

 

Except Cantu's "One season" isn't all that special.

 

I know. Not special relative to what we've had at 3B for a long time, but relative to what Castillo could offer...... ehhh.....

[Mephisto]

Is Cantu just a VERY minor upgrade over Castillo?

 

I find that hard to believe.

 

In his best season, Cantu was worth 4.4 wins according to WARP3. That season, appears to be a statistical aberration because his minor and major league record indicate nothing but one 400 at bat stint in AAA that show he can sustain that type of offensive production.

 

Castillo's career high WARP3 is 2.8, and his minor league record shows that he can at least play a bit better than he has thus far. He is also the superior defensive player.

 

Cantu's career high OPS is about 80 points higher than Castillo's, but there's no indication he can repeat that again. Castillo appears to have somewhat limited upside.

 

(Plus, everyone goes on about this great season Cantu had. It wasn't really that great of a season, mostly due to his complete unwillingness to take a walk.)

yeah well, a .706 slg will earn you the benefit of the doubt, specially when you already have a 28 homer season on your resume.

 

It's interesting how a player can be discounted because he had just "one season" where he showed a very good deal of offensive output. I think its easy to combine a person's minor league record and say "aha, this is what this guy has done and therefore what this guy will do". I think you need to consider the circumstances behind what you're saying. Cantu had his "coming out" season at AAA Durham at age 22. Yes, everything else before that was pathetic indeed. You look at Castillo and see the inverse; great numbers before age 22 at the lower levels but a not-so-great season at AA at that age. Castillo was given plenty of chances at the big league level and has bombed ever since, while Cantu blossomed in 2005 and suffered an ankle injury in 2006 which hindered him all season long (we all saw that with Jacobs didn't we?). In 07, he had to actually compete for his job if I recall and I think it was Upton who supplanted him. I just don't see the love for Castillo when he has blown it against the tougher competition while Cantu has been very successful in the higher levels of professional baseball WHEN healthy. I don't think its fair to knock someone because they just happened to "click" at a certain time and didn't always display that potential before.

 

Also, I see people here giving too much focus on defense at 3rd. Its as if those 137 errors were committed there alone; this was a COMBINATION of bad defense. From what I see, most of the main guys who committed those errors are going to be back, so why just hold it against Cantu? Plug the man in and let him hack away, because judging from where he is going to hit its not a big deal if he isn't that big of a walk guy anyway.

 

Except Cantu's "One season" isn't all that special.

 

I know. Not special relative to what we've had at 3B for a long time, but relative to what Castillo could offer...... ehhh.....

Cantu put those numbers at 2b which made them special.

[Rabbethan]

hmm.... I saw Castillo play in the ST opener vs the nats. He made some nice plays at third.

 

I tnink Cantu also made a couple nice plays in that game.

Yeah, that was Cantu.

[Marlins2003]

"If" (operative word) Jorge Cantu can give this team 170 hits, 40 doubles, 28 homeruns and 117 RBIs in place of Miguel Cabrera while striking out less than 90 times in almost 600 at bats I don't really care what his OPS or any other stat is, especially at the price point. :notworthy

 

He does that and he's a candidate for National League Comeback Player of the Year.

[bobbob1313]

Especially with a .311 OBP. That'll be fun.

[Rabbethan]

Especially with a .311 OBP. That'll be fun.

I know he said he didn't care about OBP, but it would have to be at least decent with 170 hits and only 90 SO in 600 ABs.

[Wild Card]

If he drives in 117 runs, he's doing something right.

[Marlins2003]

The .311 bobbob was referring to was in fact Cantu's OBP the season he put up the numbers I posted above. Hard to believe I know but frankly as I said give me the production and I'll ignore the stats thank you very very much.

[Rabbethan]

The .311 bobbob was referring to was in fact Cantu's OBP the season he put up the numbers I posted above. Hard to believe I know but frankly as I said give me the production and I'll ignore the stats thank you very very much.

Holy crap...how the hell is that even possible?! I assume that if someone was striking out that little, he would walk a bit more...damn....

 

 

I rescind my previous comment....damn....

[Marlins2003]

He only walked 19 times all season. Why? Because he makes good contact almost every at bat. It's why you can't always trust stats (not a shot at stats folks, just making the point some players some years don't fit the mold).

[bobbob1313]

The .311 bobbob was referring to was in fact Cantu's OBP the season he put up the numbers I posted above. Hard to believe I know but frankly as I said give me the production and I'll ignore the stats thank you very very much.

 

Except that stats are nothing more than a record of production.

 

If you are putting up a .311 OBP, I don't care what else you do, you aren't very good. Unless you do everything else really well, which Cantu doesn't.

 

The .311 bobbob was referring to was in fact Cantu's OBP the season he put up the numbers I posted above. Hard to believe I know but frankly as I said give me the production and I'll ignore the stats thank you very very much.

Holy crap...how the hell is that even possible?! I assume that if someone was striking out that little, he would walk a bit more...damn....

 

 

I rescind my previous comment....damn....

 

Actually, most of the people who walk a lot also strike out a lot, mostly because they work the count more.

[Rabbethan]

The .311 bobbob was referring to was in fact Cantu's OBP the season he put up the numbers I posted above. Hard to believe I know but frankly as I said give me the production and I'll ignore the stats thank you very very much.

Holy crap...how the hell is that even possible?! I assume that if someone was striking out that little, he would walk a bit more...damn....

 

 

I rescind my previous comment....damn....

 

Actually, most of the people who walk a lot also strike out a lot, mostly because they work the count more.

Dually noted.

[bobbob1313]

But still, a 5-1 K-BB ratio is not very good.

[Marlins2003]

Except that stats are nothing more than a record of production.

 

Stats are "sometimes" a record of production, sometimes they only show a sliver of the whole of a player's production, especially when you have an aberrance like Cantu's offensive production vs walks that season. Stats are meant to be relevant within certain ranges.

 

There are all kinds of scenarios where some number is so far outside of the norm that it skews everything. It's like taking the average of .229,.235,.410 and .380 and saying the guy is a .315 hitter when clearly its not illustrative of what kind of hitter he is.

 

In the case of Cantu he makes an extrordinary high amount of contact and it skews his numbers. He plays in a different park and hits less doubles and homeruns and his number fall to sh*t as probably do his rbis and his .310 obp remains the constant. Theres just too many factors at work to say this stat or that defines everything you need to know about a particular player.

 

I don't care if he hits deep flyballs that allow runners to move up or someone scores on a fielder's choice because he made contact. The run score, the runners advanced, you win baseball games because you score more runs than the other team, not because one team's OBP is is higher than the others. As Marlins fans we should be acutely aware of that as how many times have we seen the team leave a dozen runners on base and lose ballgames? Too many. I can forgive or even ignore a lower than I'd like OBP if there's a guy who finds a way to bring those guys we've left stranded on the bases home to score.

[SongInTheAir]

A guy who drives in 117 runs is doing something right. Even if perhaps he isn't scoring all that many runs because he isn't on base too often, the fact that he brings that many in is a good thing. Now, I am well aware that RBI require others to be on base and aren't a perfect tell of a player's ability, while OBP is almost solely on the individual player's shoulders, but as someone above said, the marlins have always seemed to have a problem driving in runs, and no problem at all on having the proverbial ducks on the pond. [/run-on]

[bobbob1313]

Except that stats are nothing more than a record of production.

 

Stats are "sometimes" a record of production, sometimes they only show a sliver of the whole of a player's production, especially when you have an aberrance like Cantu's offensive production vs walks that season. Stats are meant to be relevant within certain ranges.

 

There are all kinds of scenarios where some number is so far outside of the norm that it skews everything. It's like taking the average of .229,.235,.410 and .380 and saying the guy is a .315 hitter when clearly its not illustrative of what kind of hitter he is.

 

In the case of Cantu he makes an extrordinary high amount of contact and it skews his numbers. He plays in a different park and hits less doubles and homeruns and his number fall to sh*t as probably do his rbis and his .310 obp remains the constant. Theres just too many factors at work to say this stat or that defines everything you need to know about a particular player.

 

I don't care if he hits deep flyballs that allow runners to move up or someone scores on a fielder's choice because he made contact. The run score, the runners advanced, you win baseball games because you score more runs than the other team, not because one team's OBP is is higher than the others. As Marlins fans we should be acutely aware of that as how many times have we seen the team leave a dozen runners on base and lose ballgames? Too many. I can forgive or even ignore a lower than I'd like OBP if there's a guy who finds a way to bring those guys we've left stranded on the bases home to score.

 

I'm sorry, but you are all kinds of wrong here, man. Cantu isn't a productive ball player both because of his low OBP and because he just doesn't do many other things well. In his best ML season he had a .497 SLG. Even if he replicates his best season, it'll be good for 6th on our team in OPS. I think it's generous to say he's anything more than a marginal key to this team's offense this season. If he is our everyday third baseman, he should hit no higher than 7th this season...

 

RBI are a pretty meaningless statistic, since they are dependent more on where a player hits in the lineup than what he does. If Hanley bats 3rd last year and puts up the same OPS, he's a 120 RBI guy. And you're whole point in the 3rd paragraph actually works against Cantu. His value is almost entirely dependent on him making contact and having those balls find holes in the defense. If he gets lucky and his balls find the holes in the outfield, he's a decent hitter, as 2005 showed. But anyone whose value is based entirely on balls in play is going to fluctuate too much to every be anything more than a marginal player.

 

And your last point is wrong as well. Yeah, you win baseball games because you score more runs, but there is almost a 100% correlation between a team's OBP and it's runs scored. The top 5 teams in runs scored and OBP will almost always be very similar every year.

 

I mean, you keep on talking about Cantu's production that year. What production? He slugged .500. That's nice, but combined with a .311 OBP, and he's a barely above average player. I don't care about his counting stats, because they aren't nearly as important as rate stats. I can't believe there are still people out there that use counting stats instead of rate stats to judge a player's worth. You are really reaching to make Cantu look like a valuable player. Sure, he's better offensively than Castillo, but he's not a very good hitter, and from all accounts he's one of the worst defensive infielders in the league.

[Marlins2003]

Except that stats are nothing more than a record of production.

 

Stats are "sometimes" a record of production, sometimes they only show a sliver of the whole of a player's production, especially when you have an aberrance like Cantu's offensive production vs walks that season. Stats are meant to be relevant within certain ranges.

 

There are all kinds of scenarios where some number is so far outside of the norm that it skews everything. It's like taking the average of .229,.235,.410 and .380 and saying the guy is a .315 hitter when clearly its not illustrative of what kind of hitter he is.

 

In the case of Cantu he makes an extrordinary high amount of contact and it skews his numbers. He plays in a different park and hits less doubles and homeruns and his number fall to sh*t as probably do his rbis and his .310 obp remains the constant. Theres just too many factors at work to say this stat or that defines everything you need to know about a particular player.

 

I don't care if he hits deep flyballs that allow runners to move up or someone scores on a fielder's choice because he made contact. The run score, the runners advanced, you win baseball games because you score more runs than the other team, not because one team's OBP is is higher than the others. As Marlins fans we should be acutely aware of that as how many times have we seen the team leave a dozen runners on base and lose ballgames? Too many. I can forgive or even ignore a lower than I'd like OBP if there's a guy who finds a way to bring those guys we've left stranded on the bases home to score.

 

I'm sorry, but you are all kinds of wrong here, man. Cantu isn't a productive ball player both because of his low OBP and because he just doesn't do many other things well. In his best ML season he had a .497 SLG. RBI are a pretty meaningless statistic, since they are dependent more on where a player hits in the lineup than what he does. If Hanley bats 3rd last year and puts up the same OPS, he's a 120 RBI guy. And you're whole point in the 3rd paragraph actually works against Cantu. His value is almost entirely dependent on him making contact and having those balls find holes in the defense. If he gets lucky and his balls find the holes in the outfield, he's a decent hitter, as 2005 showed. But anyone whose value is based entirely on balls in play is going to fluctuate too much to every be anything more than a marginal player.

 

And your last point is wrong as well. Yeah, you win baseball games because you score more runs, but there is almost a %100 correlation between a team's OBP and it's runs scored. The top 5 teams in runs scored and OBP will almost always be very similar every year.

 

Since you feel the need like so many staheads who think the game is played by numbers and not people let me be absolutist too.

 

No. You are wrong. 117 RBIs is not a meaningless number it represents real people crossing a real plate scoring real runs in real games.

 

So no, you're wrong. You say 170 hits, 40 doubles, 27 homeruns and 117 RBis are not a good season regardless of anything else. You ask 100 real professional baseball players, members of the MLBPA, not statmasters sitting behind their computers if they would feel like they had a good season putting up those numbers and if 100 out of 100 don't say they'd love to put up those numbers it's because you asked a Miguel Cabrera who puts up even better numbers, and the other 95% of the players playing today only wish they could ever achieve.

 

The usual stathead answer is that baseball players don't know what they're talking about they just play the game, they're not half as smart as we are because we can show you you aren't doing this or its clear the result is a bear in a tree or neutral D or whatever the new buzzword is.

 

Sorry no, you're wrong the game is played by real people who are trying to win games not flesh out their stats because in the game of baseball winning is vastly more important than win shares or OBP or any of this stuff that passes for anaylsis.

 

So as long as you (not you really just your camp) speak as if players don't matter and only numbers that you say count matter. That real, tangible production means nothing because a formula hasn't been created to quantify it (which is of course the biggest problem with baseball stats, it's the equivalent of a basement do-it-yourself kit, in its infancy, and still needs to be burped like a baby, but the people who practice it think its a mature science) the correct answer for all real baseball fans is to reject all of it out of hand and say no, it might be great on your nintendo but it doesn't mean sh*t on the ballfield other than as an indicator that should be factored in as part of the decision-making process by people who understand the game is much more than that.

[bobbob1313]

Wow, thats a hell of a post. Were you trying to not make sense, or what?

 

Winning is super important in baseball. A high on base percentage is super important to winning. I like how you are trying to make it seem like having a high on base percentage isn't part of the game, or something. You really don't have even a basic understanding of how statistical analysis works.

 

What do you mean that a formula for "real, tangible production" hasn't been created yet? There are plenty of them out there that take into account everything tangible that a player does. WARP, for instance. Cantu in 05 was worth 3.0 wins based on everything he did that season at the plate and in the field.

 

Seriously, I don't understand people who have this vendetta against statistical analysis. Stats are nothing more than a record of what occurs on the field, in tangible terms. Statistical analysis is, then, the analysis of what happens on the field in an unbiased and objective way. I hear people say stuff like "Sorry no, you're wrong the game is played by real people who are trying to win games not flesh out their stats because in the game of baseball winning is vastly more important than win shares or OBP or any of this stuff that passes for anaylsis." all of the time and it seriously doesn't make any sense. There is no such thing as "fleshing out your stats" in the context of a baseball game without also being a "real person" who is helping to win games. Win Shares, OBP, WARP, hell, even Batting Average and RBI are simply ways to try to quantify the ways a play helps his team win. I love that you are ball washing the guy for having 117 RBI (Which is a stat, by the way), and then completely writing off any other stat that proves he isn't that good. Hypocrisy much?

 

Go do some research on the subject before you talk about it again, please. You are coming off as really ignorant right now.

[Jimmy42Jack0]

Wow, thats a hell of a post. Were you trying to not make sense, or what?

 

Winning is super important in baseball. A high on base percentage is super important to winning. I like how you are trying to make it seem like having a high on base percentage isn't part of the game, or something. You really don't have even a basic understanding of how statistical analysis works.

 

What do you mean that a formula for "real, tangible production" hasn't been created yet? There are plenty of them out there that take into account everything tangible that a player does. WARP, for instance. Cantu in 05 was worth 3.0 wins based on everything he did that season at the plate and in the field.

 

Seriously, I don't understand people who have this vendetta against statistical analysis. Stats are nothing more than a record of what occurs on the field, in tangible terms. Statistical analysis is, then, the analysis of what happens on the field in an unbiased and objective way. I hear people say stuff like "Sorry no, you're wrong the game is played by real people who are trying to win games not flesh out their stats because in the game of baseball winning is vastly more important than win shares or OBP or any of this stuff that passes for anaylsis." all of the time and it seriously doesn't make any sense. There is no such thing as "fleshing out your stats" in the context of a baseball game without also being a "real person" who is helping to win games. Win Shares, OBP, WARP, hell, even Batting Average and RBI are simply ways to try to quantify the ways a play helps his team win. I love that you are ball washing the guy for having 117 RBI (Which is a stat, by the way), and then completely writing off any other stat that proves he isn't that good. Hypocrisy much?

 

Go do some research on the subject before you talk about it again, please. You are coming off as really ignorant right now.

im a marlins fan...and im glad cantu has had the spring he has had and im glad he is on our team and will produce in all likely hood, quite a few runs...thats all that matters to me...you can break that down into whatever stat you want...but im glad he is on our team

[Out of the Past]

Yeah, you win baseball games because you score more runs, but there is almost a 100% correlation between a team's OBP and it's runs scored. The top 5 teams in runs scored and OBP will almost always be very similar every year.

The correlation between team OPS and runs scored is way stronger than the correlation between team OBP and runs scored.

 

Why do you blow-off SLG as if it's inconsequential?

[Rydawg]

Except that stats are nothing more than a record of production.

 

Stats are "sometimes" a record of production, sometimes they only show a sliver of the whole of a player's production, especially when you have an aberrance like Cantu's offensive production vs walks that season. Stats are meant to be relevant within certain ranges.

 

There are all kinds of scenarios where some number is so far outside of the norm that it skews everything. It's like taking the average of .229,.235,.410 and .380 and saying the guy is a .315 hitter when clearly its not illustrative of what kind of hitter he is.

 

In the case of Cantu he makes an extrordinary high amount of contact and it skews his numbers. He plays in a different park and hits less doubles and homeruns and his number fall to sh*t as probably do his rbis and his .310 obp remains the constant. Theres just too many factors at work to say this stat or that defines everything you need to know about a particular player.

 

I don't care if he hits deep flyballs that allow runners to move up or someone scores on a fielder's choice because he made contact. The run score, the runners advanced, you win baseball games because you score more runs than the other team, not because one team's OBP is is higher than the others. As Marlins fans we should be acutely aware of that as how many times have we seen the team leave a dozen runners on base and lose ballgames? Too many. I can forgive or even ignore a lower than I'd like OBP if there's a guy who finds a way to bring those guys we've left stranded on the bases home to score.

 

I'm sorry, but you are all kinds of wrong here, man. Cantu isn't a productive ball player both because of his low OBP and because he just doesn't do many other things well. In his best ML season he had a .497 SLG. RBI are a pretty meaningless statistic, since they are dependent more on where a player hits in the lineup than what he does. If Hanley bats 3rd last year and puts up the same OPS, he's a 120 RBI guy. And you're whole point in the 3rd paragraph actually works against Cantu. His value is almost entirely dependent on him making contact and having those balls find holes in the defense. If he gets lucky and his balls find the holes in the outfield, he's a decent hitter, as 2005 showed. But anyone whose value is based entirely on balls in play is going to fluctuate too much to every be anything more than a marginal player.

 

And your last point is wrong as well. Yeah, you win baseball games because you score more runs, but there is almost a %100 correlation between a team's OBP and it's runs scored. The top 5 teams in runs scored and OBP will almost always be very similar every year.

 

Since you feel the need like so many staheads who think the game is played by numbers and not people let me be absolutist too.

 

No. You are wrong. 117 RBIs is not a meaningless number it represents real people crossing a real plate scoring real runs in real games.

 

So no, you're wrong. You say 170 hits, 40 doubles, 27 homeruns and 117 RBis are not a good season regardless of anything else. You ask 100 real professional baseball players, members of the MLBPA, not statmasters sitting behind their computers if they would feel like they had a good season putting up those numbers and if 100 out of 100 don't say they'd love to put up those numbers it's because you asked a Miguel Cabrera who puts up even better numbers, and the other 95% of the players playing today only wish they could ever achieve.

 

The usual stathead answer is that baseball players don't know what they're talking about they just play the game, they're not half as smart as we are because we can show you you aren't doing this or its clear the result is a bear in a tree or neutral D or whatever the new buzzword is.

 

Sorry no, you're wrong the game is played by real people who are trying to win games not flesh out their stats because in the game of baseball winning is vastly more important than win shares or OBP or any of this stuff that passes for anaylsis.

 

So as long as you (not you really just your camp) speak as if players don't matter and only numbers that you say count matter. That real, tangible production means nothing because a formula hasn't been created to quantify it (which is of course the biggest problem with baseball stats, it's the equivalent of a basement do-it-yourself kit, in its infancy, and still needs to be burped like a baby, but the people who practice it think its a mature science) the correct answer for all real baseball fans is to reject all of it out of hand and say no, it might be great on your nintendo but it doesn't mean sh*t on the ballfield other than as an indicator that should be factored in as part of the decision-making process by people who understand the game is much more than that.

 

 

Right on! Right on! Preach on brother! The game is played on the field and not on a calculator.