Helms returns to the Fish!

[Yessir]

Shoot, I'll take it..

[Rabbethan]

My point is that I've never seen so many people so excited about a marginal upgrade over Jason Wood. :lol

 

Whatever makes you happy, I guess.

 

When you are a Marlins fan this is like a three way 10 man blockbuster trade.....c'mon we are THE MARLINS ! :lol

Well, when you think of the last couple of years.

 

Remember, we once upon a time made moves like trading in 04 for Lo Duca and signing Delgado in 05. But since 05, yeah, this is enough to get us all worked up.

Well, we did make a pretty big trade a few months ago....

[The_Punisher]

But I'm not too fond of trading for him, would have rather signed him.

 

 

WHY? We got him, and the Phillies are paying for most of his contract. If he would have been on the open market anybody could have signed him. This was a secure way to get him, and I must say a solid move for the Marlins.

[Erick]

It's a solid move. Nothing MAJOR, but solid. Adds more depth to the ballclub, and gives Freddi more options.

[30plus]

Actually Hoover will be optioned/DFAd when Rabelo is ready. No reason for us to carry 3 catchers.

 

You're right, I forgot about him. Then the obvious move to make when Hermida returns would be to send Andino down, and we keep Carroll. :thumbup

Do you have a man crush on Carrol? Andino is the only guy on the roster who can backup Hanley, because Amezaga is being used to platoon in CF.

 

Hanley has played all but one inning so far. He doesn't necessarily need a regular back-up as Hermida or Ross might need in Center. The only situation where he would need a back-up is if we wanted to give him a breather in a blow-out game in late innings. Amezega would be brought in from CF to play short, and Carroll or Ross would take over CF.

 

Not to mention Ross would be getting 30-40% of the starts out there in Center, making Amezega an option off the bench. It makes alot more sense to retain Carroll than it would Andino, considering how often each would be used.

 

And to answer your question, no I don't have a man crush on Carroll. I'm just one of those crazy people who values keeping the more important player. I think a Garbage Man quote will fit nicely here - Gonna go kill myself now.

Carroll couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. We have enough guys who swing and miss....we don't need another one.

 

and Andino is much better? Just because he's started the season 2 for 3 doesn't make him a proven bat. Not that I'm making a case for Carroll offensively, its not like he or Andino would remain on the team because of their bats. They are both defensive substitutes.

 

Considering Carroll can back up all outfield positions, he would be used alot more than Andino who will be rotting away on the bench. Uggla and Ramirez rarely miss a game and we have 2 guys who can play third. Carroll also gives us the option of having an extra guy to go play CF in the rare situation that Amezega needs to be brought in to back-up Uggla or Hanley. He also becomes the direct back-up to Hermida. Where do you figure Andino gets any playing time in all that?

 

And, this is thinking long-term, when Maybin joins the club Amezega becomes a complete back-up rather than a platoon in center. He becomes the immediate back-up to Hanley and Uggla, and Carroll and Ross back-up Center and Right. It makes alot more sense to carry Carroll long-term rather than Andino, who will recieve a warm butt on the bench.

 

Damn it, can somebody give me a real reason for why Andino should remain on the club over Carroll?

[Rabbethan]

Actually Hoover will be optioned/DFAd when Rabelo is ready. No reason for us to carry 3 catchers.

 

You're right, I forgot about him. Then the obvious move to make when Hermida returns would be to send Andino down, and we keep Carroll. :thumbup

Do you have a man crush on Carrol? Andino is the only guy on the roster who can backup Hanley, because Amezaga is being used to platoon in CF.

 

Hanley has played all but one inning so far. He doesn't necessarily need a regular back-up as Hermida or Ross might need in Center. The only situation where he would need a back-up is if we wanted to give him a breather in a blow-out game in late innings. Amezega would be brought in from CF to play short, and Carroll or Ross would take over CF.

 

Not to mention Ross would be getting 30-40% of the starts out there in Center, making Amezega an option off the bench. It makes alot more sense to retain Carroll than it would Andino, considering how often each would be used.

 

And to answer your question, no I don't have a man crush on Carroll. I'm just one of those crazy people who values keeping the more important player. I think a Garbage Man quote will fit nicely here - Gonna go kill myself now.

Carroll couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. We have enough guys who swing and miss....we don't need another one.

 

and Andino is much better? Just because he's started the season 2 for 3 doesn't make him a proven bat. Not that I'm making a case for Carroll offensively, its not like he or Andino would remain on the team because of their bats. They are both defensive substitutes.

 

Considering Carroll can back up all outfield positions, he would be used alot more than Andino who will be rotting away on the bench. Uggla and Ramirez rarely miss a game and we have 2 guys who can play third. Carroll also gives us the option of having an extra guy to go play CF in the rare situation that Amezega needs to be brought in to back-up Uggla or Hanley. He also becomes the direct back-up to Hermida. Where do you figure Andino gets any playing time in all that?

 

And, this is thinking long-term, when Maybin joins the club Amezega becomes a complete back-up rather than a platoon in center. He becomes the immediate back-up to Hanley and Uggla, and Carroll and Ross back-up Center and Right. It makes alot more sense to carry Carroll long-term rather than Andino, who will recieve a warm butt on the bench.

Andino has a .214 BA, .261 OBP, and .321 SLG in 84 ABs, which sucks. Carroll has a .175 BA, .217 OBP, and .228 SLG in 57 ABs, which sucks more. In addition to that, Carrol has struck out 18 times, two more than Andino's 16.

 

In addition to that, you talk about long term, and when Maybin comes up. By the time Maybin comes up, De Aza will probably be back and both Andino and Carroll will be in AAA.

[30plus]

Actually Hoover will be optioned/DFAd when Rabelo is ready. No reason for us to carry 3 catchers.

 

You're right, I forgot about him. Then the obvious move to make when Hermida returns would be to send Andino down, and we keep Carroll. :thumbup

Do you have a man crush on Carrol? Andino is the only guy on the roster who can backup Hanley, because Amezaga is being used to platoon in CF.

 

Hanley has played all but one inning so far. He doesn't necessarily need a regular back-up as Hermida or Ross might need in Center. The only situation where he would need a back-up is if we wanted to give him a breather in a blow-out game in late innings. Amezega would be brought in from CF to play short, and Carroll or Ross would take over CF.

 

Not to mention Ross would be getting 30-40% of the starts out there in Center, making Amezega an option off the bench. It makes alot more sense to retain Carroll than it would Andino, considering how often each would be used.

 

And to answer your question, no I don't have a man crush on Carroll. I'm just one of those crazy people who values keeping the more important player. I think a Garbage Man quote will fit nicely here - Gonna go kill myself now.

Carroll couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. We have enough guys who swing and miss....we don't need another one.

 

and Andino is much better? Just because he's started the season 2 for 3 doesn't make him a proven bat. Not that I'm making a case for Carroll offensively, its not like he or Andino would remain on the team because of their bats. They are both defensive substitutes.

 

Considering Carroll can back up all outfield positions, he would be used alot more than Andino who will be rotting away on the bench. Uggla and Ramirez rarely miss a game and we have 2 guys who can play third. Carroll also gives us the option of having an extra guy to go play CF in the rare situation that Amezega needs to be brought in to back-up Uggla or Hanley. He also becomes the direct back-up to Hermida. Where do you figure Andino gets any playing time in all that?

 

And, this is thinking long-term, when Maybin joins the club Amezega becomes a complete back-up rather than a platoon in center. He becomes the immediate back-up to Hanley and Uggla, and Carroll and Ross back-up Center and Right. It makes alot more sense to carry Carroll long-term rather than Andino, who will recieve a warm butt on the bench.

Andino has a .214 BA, .261 OBP, and .321 SLG in 84 ABs, which sucks. Carroll has a .175 BA, .217 OBP, and .228 SLG in 57 ABs, which sucks more. In addition to that, Carrol has struck out 18 times, two more than Andino's 16.

 

In addition to that, you talk about long term, and when Maybin comes up. By the time Maybin comes up, De Aza will probably be back and both Andino and Carroll will be in AAA.

 

I'm not arguing who has the better bat, its clear they both suck. The point is that Carroll will be needed more than Andino over the next 4-6 weeks as a defensive replacement. Nobody has come up with anything to say that Andino will be used more. Their value is not in their bats, its in their versatility and how much each will be used.

 

As for De Aza returning, that won't be for at least another 6 weeks. Hermida will return in a few days and in between that time the more valuable one to keep is Carroll. If he's sent down when De Aza is called up then that's fair enough. The fact is it makes more sense to keep Carroll over Andino until that happens.

[BlackaWhacka]

But I'm not too fond of trading for him, would have rather signed him.

 

 

WHY? We got him, and the Phillies are paying for most of his contract. If he would have been on the open market anybody could have signed him. This was a secure way to get him, and I must say a solid move for the Marlins.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. I don't see why anybody should be excited about this move, but he is better than Wood without a doubt. If he is gonna mash lefties, I would rather have him do it with us than against us.

[Rabbethan]

Actually Hoover will be optioned/DFAd when Rabelo is ready. No reason for us to carry 3 catchers.

 

You're right, I forgot about him. Then the obvious move to make when Hermida returns would be to send Andino down, and we keep Carroll. :thumbup

Do you have a man crush on Carrol? Andino is the only guy on the roster who can backup Hanley, because Amezaga is being used to platoon in CF.

 

Hanley has played all but one inning so far. He doesn't necessarily need a regular back-up as Hermida or Ross might need in Center. The only situation where he would need a back-up is if we wanted to give him a breather in a blow-out game in late innings. Amezega would be brought in from CF to play short, and Carroll or Ross would take over CF.

 

Not to mention Ross would be getting 30-40% of the starts out there in Center, making Amezega an option off the bench. It makes alot more sense to retain Carroll than it would Andino, considering how often each would be used.

 

And to answer your question, no I don't have a man crush on Carroll. I'm just one of those crazy people who values keeping the more important player. I think a Garbage Man quote will fit nicely here - Gonna go kill myself now.

Carroll couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. We have enough guys who swing and miss....we don't need another one.

 

and Andino is much better? Just because he's started the season 2 for 3 doesn't make him a proven bat. Not that I'm making a case for Carroll offensively, its not like he or Andino would remain on the team because of their bats. They are both defensive substitutes.

 

Considering Carroll can back up all outfield positions, he would be used alot more than Andino who will be rotting away on the bench. Uggla and Ramirez rarely miss a game and we have 2 guys who can play third. Carroll also gives us the option of having an extra guy to go play CF in the rare situation that Amezega needs to be brought in to back-up Uggla or Hanley. He also becomes the direct back-up to Hermida. Where do you figure Andino gets any playing time in all that?

 

And, this is thinking long-term, when Maybin joins the club Amezega becomes a complete back-up rather than a platoon in center. He becomes the immediate back-up to Hanley and Uggla, and Carroll and Ross back-up Center and Right. It makes alot more sense to carry Carroll long-term rather than Andino, who will recieve a warm butt on the bench.

Andino has a .214 BA, .261 OBP, and .321 SLG in 84 ABs, which sucks. Carroll has a .175 BA, .217 OBP, and .228 SLG in 57 ABs, which sucks more. In addition to that, Carrol has struck out 18 times, two more than Andino's 16.

 

In addition to that, you talk about long term, and when Maybin comes up. By the time Maybin comes up, De Aza will probably be back and both Andino and Carroll will be in AAA.

 

I'm not arguing who has the better bat, its clear they both suck. The point is that Carroll will be needed more than Andino over the next 4-6 weeks as a defensive replacement. Nobody has come up with anything to say that Andino will be used more. Their value is not in their bats, its in their versatility and how much each will be used.

 

As for De Aza returning, that won't be for at least another 6 weeks. Hermida will return in a few days and in between that time the more valuable one to keep is Carroll. If he's sent down when De Aza is called up then that's fair enough. The fact is it makes more sense to keep Carroll over Andino until that happens.

You make the point that Hanley doesn't need a defensive replacement, and that Andino so far has only played 3 innings a defensive replacement. But the only person in our outfield that needs a defensive replacement so far is Luis Gonzalez, and that's because he is an old bench player who is playing RF for the first time in his life. When Hermida comes back, we won't need Carroll. Amezaga will be replacing Cody and visa versa. Hermida probably won't be taken out of a game for a defensive replacement. If Willingham is taken out, Gonzo was signed for the purpose of being his replacement.

[Erick]

Carroll over Andino, right now. We have a lot of infielders, and you have to realize Hermida IS a defensive liability in RF.

...and Gonzalez has no arm (not a good defensive replacement, imho).

[Rabbethan]

Carroll over Andino, right now. We have a lot of infielders, and you have to realize Hermida IS a defensive liability in RF.

...and Gonzalez has no arm (not a good defensive replacement, imho).

It's not what I realize or not. It's how Fredi plays the game. Last year, Hermida wasn't taken out very often for a defensive replacement. Even when he was taken out, it was only after the game had already gone into extra innings. Not only that, but Hermida got alot better toward the end last year and he has a plus arm.

 

As for having alot of infielders, we currently have two and a half. West Helms and Robert Andino. With Amezaga playing half the games in the outfield, we wouldn't have anyone on the bench who can play middle infield if Andino goes back. Even though I guess you could move Mez to the infield mid game if anything and then put in Carroll.

 

While I agree that Carroll is great, and his arm is amazing, don't forget that the only reason he had an outfield assist today is because he dropped the ball. And as far as Gonzo goes...I agree, but he was literally brought to the team to backup Willingham.

[rxpro]

funny when I heard them say on FSN that the fish made acquisiton and it was a former Marlin coming back, then went to the postgame, I said don't tell me they signed KIM again!

 

since its not, I;ll take Helms any day of the week, just don't play him every day or he'll suck.........

[Nny]

Hermida is not a defensive liability. He has above average range and a plus arm. He made several mental lapses last year that everybody likes to highlight, but he has the skill to be one of the better defensive RFers.

[Rabbethan]

Hermida is not a defensive liability. He has above average range and a plus arm. He made several mental lapses last year that everybody likes to highlight, but he has the skill to be one of the better defensive RFers.

Yeah, he even got me a Gold Glove in MLB 2k8.

[Erick]

Hermida is not a defensive liability. He has above average range and a plus arm. He made several mental lapses last year that everybody likes to highlight, but he has the skill to be one of the better defensive RFers.

 

 

those lapses are STILL happening. He had 2 errors last night in the minors. I don't know...Hermida is a good hitter, and I want him on the team, but I've never felt confident with him out there. He's slow, and maybe it's just me, but it looks like he's lazy out there. If it wasn't for the fact that I know he has a ton of potential, he'd probably be my least favorite player on the team. I like players that play with intensity, and show it. Hermida, often times, looks like he's daydreaming when he's coming in for balls from the outfield. Again, it could be me, but that's just the way I see it.

[Rabbethan]

Hermida is not a defensive liability. He has above average range and a plus arm. He made several mental lapses last year that everybody likes to highlight, but he has the skill to be one of the better defensive RFers.

 

 

those lapses are STILL happening. He had 2 errors last night in the minors. I don't know...Hermida is a good hitter, and I want him on the team, but I've never felt confident with him out there. He's slow, and maybe it's just me, but it looks like he's lazy out there. If it wasn't for the fact that I know he has a ton of potential, he'd probably be my least favorite player on the team. I like players that play with intensity, and show it. Hermida, often times, looks like he's daydreaming when he's coming in for balls from the outfield. Again, it could be me, but that's just the way I see it.

You can't give him crap for having a couple errors while rehabing. He isn't 100%.

 

Also, I've never seen anything to say that he is lazy. And I might be wrong, but his speed is probably average.

[Erick]

Hermida is not a defensive liability. He has above average range and a plus arm. He made several mental lapses last year that everybody likes to highlight, but he has the skill to be one of the better defensive RFers.

 

 

those lapses are STILL happening. He had 2 errors last night in the minors. I don't know...Hermida is a good hitter, and I want him on the team, but I've never felt confident with him out there. He's slow, and maybe it's just me, but it looks like he's lazy out there. If it wasn't for the fact that I know he has a ton of potential, he'd probably be my least favorite player on the team. I like players that play with intensity, and show it. Hermida, often times, looks like he's daydreaming when he's coming in for balls from the outfield. Again, it could be me, but that's just the way I see it.

You can't give him crap for having a couple errors while rehabing. He isn't 100%.

 

Also, I've never seen anything to say that he is lazy. And I might be wrong, but his speed is probably average.

 

As I said, "maybe it's just me..."

he did make 10 errors in the OF last year when healthy though...and that doesn't count all the balls he misplayed.

With that said, you can tell by his home/road splits that he has the potential to be a GREAT hitter, and he really began showing in the 2nd half last year...so whatever it may be, we need him back in the lineup, no doubt.

[MarlinFan10]

Third base is saved! :dancing

[Nny]

And I might be wrong, but his speed is probably average.

 

It's above average, expecially for RF. Last year, only Shane Victorino and Brian Giles ranked ahead of Hermida in rate of out of zone plays (so rate=INN/OOZ), which is one of the better ways to show range (although keep in mind range isn't just speed, it's route running and reading balls aswell).

 

Victorino 20.24

Brian Giles 22.6

Hermida 22.91

Jeff Francour 23.23

Teahen 23.96

Alex Rios 29.07

Dye 30.42

Markakis 31.09

Cuddyer 32.21

Delmon Young 32.4

Brad Hawp 33.41

Shawn Green 35.35

Vlad 35.77

Jose Guillen 37.44

JD Drew 37.93

Griffey 41.54

Magglio 42.1

Abreu 53.32

 

Now that doesn't take into account in zone plays, but you can see that ranking at http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main...p;Submit=Submit (Hermida was 9th).

[miamibaseball]

i heard it on post game on 790 welcome back old friend

[MarlinsLou]

And I might be wrong, but his speed is probably average.

 

It's above average, expecially for RF. Last year, only Shane Victorino and Brian Giles ranked ahead of Hermida in rate of out of zone plays (so rate=INN/OOZ), which is one of the better ways to show range (although keep in mind range isn't just speed, it's route running and reading balls aswell).

 

Victorino 20.24

Brian Giles 22.6

Hermida 22.91

Jeff Francour 23.23

Teahen 23.96

Alex Rios 29.07

Dye 30.42

Markakis 31.09

Cuddyer 32.21

Delmon Young 32.4

Brad Hawp 33.41

Shawn Green 35.35

Vlad 35.77

Jose Guillen 37.44

JD Drew 37.93

Griffey 41.54

Magglio 42.1

Abreu 53.32

 

Now that doesn't take into account in zone plays, but you can see that ranking at http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main...p;Submit=Submit (Hermida was 9th).

I think characterizing speed as range is fine. I still want to argue sample size here though, as I think there needs to be more than a seasons worth of put outs to get solid averages, but this is a nice quick baseline. Also, are park factors included here? I imagine they are as Victorino is dominating in an offense park, as well as Giles is as in a defensive park, but just curious.

[Nny]

Don't know about PF, but I don't think it takes them into consideration. Well, I know the original ZR didn't anyway. I'm not sure if Dewan changed it for RZR.

 

and I definitely agree about sample size. going through several seasons you see several guys waving by quite a bit.

[BroncoBob27]

Hermida is not a defensive liability. He has above average range and a plus arm. He made several mental lapses last year that everybody likes to highlight, but he has the skill to be one of the better defensive RFers.

 

During those "lapses" last year, he appeared to me to be hesitant going after balls that in the past he went full bore on. I think think the injuries made him skittish. Jeremy is not a liability out there.

 

Anyways, my guess is when he comes back Andino goes down, The Amazing goes to IF replacement, and we keep Carroll on the team. Fredi has said several times that he wouldn't mind seeing Cody play most of the games in CF. And it looks like they want to work Andino some more at different positions to become an all around bench player. IF and OF. It's also in his best interests.

[Hotcorner]

so officially are we giving up a PTBN, or was it just cash?

[Marlin Nation]

This move does nothing for me, I definitely don't care for us giving up any sort of prospect for a mediocre player especially not this year.