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2013 HOF Ballot


fanofthefish
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I'd vote in

 

Schilling

Biggio

Martinez

Walker

Bagwell

 

You've made it a point to not vote in Clemen, Bonds, Mcgwire and Sosa, were you lumping in piazza with them or was there another reason. As a fan of Piazza's I'd just like to know why.

 

The fact that he admitted using Andro, mixed with the fact that he magically gained 20+ pounds of pure muscle one offseason in '98, around the time the steroid era was in full peak, also, reports that Piazza told reports off the record that he used PEDs (reported in a book written by Jeff Pearlman, who has done some good reporting regarding the Mets).

 

No doubt there's nothing concrete, and you can question Bagwell, who I put in on my list, as much as Piazza, but it just doesn't feel right to put in a guy with so many questions surrounding them into the Hall of Fame first ballot.

 

A sad consequence of the Steroid Era. Impossible to trust any player out there.

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I'd vote in

 

Schilling

Biggio

Martinez

Walker

Bagwell

 

You've made it a point to not vote in Clemen, Bonds, Mcgwire and Sosa, were you lumping in piazza with them or was there another reason. As a fan of Piazza's I'd just like to know why.

The fact that he admitted using Andro, mixed with the fact that he magically gained 20+ pounds of pure muscle one offseason in '98, around the time the steroid era was in full peak, also, reports that Piazza told reports off the record that he used PEDs (reported in a book written by Jeff Pearlman, who has done some good reporting regarding the Mets).

 

No doubt there's nothing concrete, and you can question Bagwell, who I put in on my list, as much as Piazza, but it just doesn't feel right to put in a guy with so many questions surrounding them into the Hall of Fame first ballot.

 

A sad consequence of the Steroid Era. Impossible to trust any player out there.

 

Sad indeed, do you have a link or source about his use of Andro? The pearl man book I heard about buy I've also heard he has an ax to grind against those 96-2004 mets in general. Expeccially Todd hundley, edgardo Alfonzo and butch huskey

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http://books.google.com/books?id=hg56i_sAUIMC&pg=PT99&lpg=PT99&dq=piazza+andro&source=bl&ots=YPFC105yD2&sig=cGwyidBCsnPNdJ776RXgmHJmRyg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fyi9ULTEMaKS0QHp6oHABQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAw

 

If you want, the link basically makes your argument considering it was legal when he admitted it.

 

Legal or not it does blemish in my eyes a somewhat pristine record. Pearlman's Book where he mentioned PED Use and Piazza was one written as a Roger Clemen's autobiography and one I feel he was catering to his audience.

 

Your omission speaks of his alleged PED use, which is legitimate. I'm not sure how "Out of the Past" can justify he wasn't one of the best catchers and players of his era.

 

In Batting Average and OBP, here's their career stats:

Piazza: .308/.377

Bench: .267/.342

Berra: .285/.348

Carter: .262/.335

Fisk: .265/.341

Pudge: .297/.334

 

In Career Home Runs:

Piazza: 427

Bench: 389

Berra: 358

Carter: 324

Fisk: 376

Pudge: 311

 

Here are their hits, with their amount of seasons which shows Carter, Fisk, and Pudge Rodriguez are compilers.

Piazza: 2127 in 16 seasons

Bench: 2048 in 17 seasons

Berra: 2150 in 19 seasons

Carter: 2092 in 19 seasons

Fisk: 2356 in 24 seasons (8 more seasons to get only 200 more hits)

Pudge: 2844 in 21 seasons

 

If your an RBI guy, (RBI and Games Played): This comparison right here shows most of all that all the players you mentioned as better then him are just compilers, with Fisk (the former C HR King) being the worst offender of all with 24 Seasons under his belt.

Piazza: .1335 in 1912 games played

Bench: 1376 in 2158 games played

Berra: 1430 in 2120 games played

Carter: 1225 in 2296 games played

Fisk: 1330 in 2499 games played (More than 550 more games to get within 5 of Piazza's)

Pudge: 1332 in 2543 games played (He needed close to 600 more games to get within 3 RBI's)

 

Piazza had a moment that transcended sports when he hit that HR after 9-11 in the first game in NYC since the tragedy.

 

Here are the Staff ERA when he was a C, I'd say it's pretty impression and leads credibility to his defense even if he couldn't throw out a runner. In a conversation with both John Baker and John Buck back in Spring Training 2011, both said he didn't get as much credit as he deserved as a defensive catcher, and that most of his issues with throwing out runners were tied to the delivery of his SP's and their lack of urgency when delivering to the plate. Some of the issue lies in Piazza's arm strength (According to Baker) but the other issue was once Piazza's handicap was discovered, most SP's figured whether they hurried to the plate or not, players would be stealing. Not much of a chance to throw out a runner when they already have the lead.

For proof, Piazza led the NL in caught stealing in 1993 and was fifth in percentage. In 1998 and 1999 he finished 2nd in caught stealing while he still led the league in steals allowed.

 

Here's his staff ERA ranking in the NL when he caught:

1993 Dodgers: 3rd

1994 Dodgers: 9th

1995 Dodgers: 2nd

1996 Dodgers: 1st

1997 Dodgers: 2nd

1998 Mets: 4th

1999 Mets: 5th

2000 Mets: 3rd

2001 Mets: 5th

2002 Mets: 5th

2005 Mets: 3rd

2006 Padres: 1st

 

(And whether it’s worth pointing out or not, the 1994 Dodgers, the one odd ball on the list, had a 3.97 ERA with Piazza catching and a 5.28 ERA with Carlos Hernandez and Tom Prince behind the plate.)

 

He also was never worse then .982 at fielding percentage when Catching.

 

For a note on his defensive skills, heres what baseballstatistics has to say:

To be sure, Piazza isn't in the same league defensively as the catchers above. That said, he's no slouch, and very underrated; look at the way that he's handled pitchers in both Los Angeles and New York. Kids like Chan Ho Park, Hideo Nomo, Ramon Martinez, and veterans like Al Leiter, Rick Reed and Darren Dreifort all had their best years with Piazza behind the plate.

 

To insist the other 5 catchers are all better then him, shows just how little you must know about baseball. I even included Berra, who I consider to be the best pure hitter out of them all right behind Piazza.

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From 93-02, he averaged 35 homers and 107 RBI with a batting average of .322 - that's an amazing 10 year stretch [346 homers and 1066 RBI], especially at the catching position. Should have won the MVP award in 1997, IMO.

 

That 1997 season was incredible, especially with his .362 average and 40 HR's. How Walker won it playing half his games in Coors Field boggles my mind. The only thing I could think of was his Steals, and even then Piazza's position of Catcher should have overshadowed that.

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From 93-02, he averaged 35 homers and 107 RBI with a batting average of .322 - that's an amazing 10 year stretch [346 homers and 1066 RBI], especially at the catching position. Should have won the MVP award in 1997, IMO.

 

That 1997 season was incredible, especially with his .362 average and 40 HR's. How Walker won it playing half his games in Coors Field boggles my mind. The only thing I could think of was his Steals, and even then Piazza's position of Catcher should have overshadowed that.

Coors Field, sure. But when you take into account OPS+, which factors in the offensive environment both players played in, Piazza only comes out a little ahead (185 to 178). Once you factor in baserunning and the fact that he was a gold-glove outfielder (I was 9 at the time, so I do not feel qualified in saying whether he was or was not good, but the perception was that he was), I don't see why it's so hard explain.

 

Also, Walker had a better road OPS than home OPS that season.

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http://books.google.com/books?id=hg56i_sAUIMC&pg=PT99&lpg=PT99&dq=piazza+andro&source=bl&ots=YPFC105yD2&sig=cGwyidBCsnPNdJ776RXgmHJmRyg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fyi9ULTEMaKS0QHp6oHABQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAw

 

If you want, the link basically makes your argument considering it was legal when he admitted it.

 

Legal or not it does blemish in my eyes a somewhat pristine record. Pearlman's Book where he mentioned PED Use and Piazza was one written as a Roger Clemen's autobiography and one I feel he was catering to his audience.

 

Your omission speaks of his alleged PED use, which is legitimate. I'm not sure how "Out of the Past" can justify he wasn't one of the best catchers and players of his era.

 

In Batting Average and OBP, here's their career stats:

Piazza: .308/.377

Bench: .267/.342

Berra: .285/.348

Carter: .262/.335

Fisk: .265/.341

Pudge: .297/.334

 

In Career Home Runs:

Piazza: 427

Bench: 389

Berra: 358

Carter: 324

Fisk: 376

Pudge: 311

 

Here are their hits, with their amount of seasons which shows Carter, Fisk, and Pudge Rodriguez are compilers.

Piazza: 2127 in 16 seasons

Bench: 2048 in 17 seasons

Berra: 2150 in 19 seasons

Carter: 2092 in 19 seasons

Fisk: 2356 in 24 seasons (8 more seasons to get only 200 more hits)

Pudge: 2844 in 21 seasons

 

If your an RBI guy, (RBI and Games Played): This comparison right here shows most of all that all the players you mentioned as better then him are just compilers, with Fisk (the former C HR King) being the worst offender of all with 24 Seasons under his belt.

Piazza: .1335 in 1912 games played

Bench: 1376 in 2158 games played

Berra: 1430 in 2120 games played

Carter: 1225 in 2296 games played

Fisk: 1330 in 2499 games played (More than 550 more games to get within 5 of Piazza's)

Pudge: 1332 in 2543 games played (He needed close to 600 more games to get within 3 RBI's)

 

Piazza had a moment that transcended sports when he hit that HR after 9-11 in the first game in NYC since the tragedy.

 

Here are the Staff ERA when he was a C, I'd say it's pretty impression and leads credibility to his defense even if he couldn't throw out a runner. In a conversation with both John Baker and John Buck back in Spring Training 2011, both said he didn't get as much credit as he deserved as a defensive catcher, and that most of his issues with throwing out runners were tied to the delivery of his SP's and their lack of urgency when delivering to the plate. Some of the issue lies in Piazza's arm strength (According to Baker) but the other issue was once Piazza's handicap was discovered, most SP's figured whether they hurried to the plate or not, players would be stealing. Not much of a chance to throw out a runner when they already have the lead.

For proof, Piazza led the NL in caught stealing in 1993 and was fifth in percentage. In 1998 and 1999 he finished 2nd in caught stealing while he still led the league in steals allowed.

 

Here's his staff ERA ranking in the NL when he caught:

1993 Dodgers: 3rd

1994 Dodgers: 9th

1995 Dodgers: 2nd

1996 Dodgers: 1st

1997 Dodgers: 2nd

1998 Mets: 4th

1999 Mets: 5th

2000 Mets: 3rd

2001 Mets: 5th

2002 Mets: 5th

2005 Mets: 3rd

2006 Padres: 1st

 

(And whether it’s worth pointing out or not, the 1994 Dodgers, the one odd ball on the list, had a 3.97 ERA with Piazza catching and a 5.28 ERA with Carlos Hernandez and Tom Prince behind the plate.)

 

He also was never worse then .982 at fielding percentage when Catching.

 

For a note on his defensive skills, heres what baseballstatistics has to say:

To be sure, Piazza isn't in the same league defensively as the catchers above. That said, he's no slouch, and very underrated; look at the way that he's handled pitchers in both Los Angeles and New York. Kids like Chan Ho Park, Hideo Nomo, Ramon Martinez, and veterans like Al Leiter, Rick Reed and Darren Dreifort all had their best years with Piazza behind the plate.

 

To insist the other 5 catchers are all better then him, shows just how little you must know about baseball. I even included Berra, who I consider to be the best pure hitter out of them all right behind Piazza.

 

WAR:

JB - 72

GC - 66

CF - 64

IR - 64

MP - 56

 

As I said, had MP played at a high level 2 or 3 more years, he would be worthy of the hall of fame.

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http://books.google.com/books?id=hg56i_sAUIMC&pg=PT99&lpg=PT99&dq=piazza+andro&source=bl&ots=YPFC105yD2&sig=cGwyidBCsnPNdJ776RXgmHJmRyg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fyi9ULTEMaKS0QHp6oHABQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAw

 

If you want, the link basically makes your argument considering it was legal when he admitted it.

 

Legal or not it does blemish in my eyes a somewhat pristine record. Pearlman's Book where he mentioned PED Use and Piazza was one written as a Roger Clemen's autobiography and one I feel he was catering to his audience.

 

Your omission speaks of his alleged PED use, which is legitimate. I'm not sure how "Out of the Past" can justify he wasn't one of the best catchers and players of his era.

 

In Batting Average and OBP, here's their career stats:

Piazza: .308/.377

Bench: .267/.342

Berra: .285/.348

Carter: .262/.335

Fisk: .265/.341

Pudge: .297/.334

 

In Career Home Runs:

Piazza: 427

Bench: 389

Berra: 358

Carter: 324

Fisk: 376

Pudge: 311

 

Here are their hits, with their amount of seasons which shows Carter, Fisk, and Pudge Rodriguez are compilers.

Piazza: 2127 in 16 seasons

Bench: 2048 in 17 seasons

Berra: 2150 in 19 seasons

Carter: 2092 in 19 seasons

Fisk: 2356 in 24 seasons (8 more seasons to get only 200 more hits)

Pudge: 2844 in 21 seasons

 

If your an RBI guy, (RBI and Games Played): This comparison right here shows most of all that all the players you mentioned as better then him are just compilers, with Fisk (the former C HR King) being the worst offender of all with 24 Seasons under his belt.

Piazza: .1335 in 1912 games played

Bench: 1376 in 2158 games played

Berra: 1430 in 2120 games played

Carter: 1225 in 2296 games played

Fisk: 1330 in 2499 games played (More than 550 more games to get within 5 of Piazza's)

Pudge: 1332 in 2543 games played (He needed close to 600 more games to get within 3 RBI's)

 

Piazza had a moment that transcended sports when he hit that HR after 9-11 in the first game in NYC since the tragedy.

 

Here are the Staff ERA when he was a C, I'd say it's pretty impression and leads credibility to his defense even if he couldn't throw out a runner. In a conversation with both John Baker and John Buck back in Spring Training 2011, both said he didn't get as much credit as he deserved as a defensive catcher, and that most of his issues with throwing out runners were tied to the delivery of his SP's and their lack of urgency when delivering to the plate. Some of the issue lies in Piazza's arm strength (According to Baker) but the other issue was once Piazza's handicap was discovered, most SP's figured whether they hurried to the plate or not, players would be stealing. Not much of a chance to throw out a runner when they already have the lead.

For proof, Piazza led the NL in caught stealing in 1993 and was fifth in percentage. In 1998 and 1999 he finished 2nd in caught stealing while he still led the league in steals allowed.

 

Here's his staff ERA ranking in the NL when he caught:

1993 Dodgers: 3rd

1994 Dodgers: 9th

1995 Dodgers: 2nd

1996 Dodgers: 1st

1997 Dodgers: 2nd

1998 Mets: 4th

1999 Mets: 5th

2000 Mets: 3rd

2001 Mets: 5th

2002 Mets: 5th

2005 Mets: 3rd

2006 Padres: 1st

 

(And whether it’s worth pointing out or not, the 1994 Dodgers, the one odd ball on the list, had a 3.97 ERA with Piazza catching and a 5.28 ERA with Carlos Hernandez and Tom Prince behind the plate.)

 

He also was never worse then .982 at fielding percentage when Catching.

 

For a note on his defensive skills, heres what baseballstatistics has to say:

To be sure, Piazza isn't in the same league defensively as the catchers above. That said, he's no slouch, and very underrated; look at the way that he's handled pitchers in both Los Angeles and New York. Kids like Chan Ho Park, Hideo Nomo, Ramon Martinez, and veterans like Al Leiter, Rick Reed and Darren Dreifort all had their best years with Piazza behind the plate.

 

To insist the other 5 catchers are all better then him, shows just how little you must know about baseball. I even included Berra, who I consider to be the best pure hitter out of them all right behind Piazza.

WAR:

JB - 72

GC - 66

CF - 64

IR - 64

MP - 56

 

As I said, had MP played at a high level 2 or 3 more years, he would be worthy of the hall of fame.

 

So you'd rather a player hang on 8 years past his value to pad his stats and WAR?

 

Piazza played 16 years, which is a Long career to begin with, Fisk played 24, pudge 21. To hang on that long for that little difference hurts anyone's chances, it doesn't help them.

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  • 2 weeks later...

WAR as the sole determining factor for the Hall of Fame :lol

Well, considering some people are making actual arguments for voting in Jack Morris based on number of Opening Day starts, that's not so crazy.

 

My ballot: Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, Bonds, Clemens, Raines, Sosa, Trammell, Schilling, Martinez

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WAR as the sole determining factor for the Hall of Fame :lol

Well, considering some people are making actual arguments for voting in Jack Morris based on number of Opening Day starts, that's not so crazy.

 

My ballot: Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, Bonds, Clemens, Raines, Sosa, Trammell, Schilling, Martinez

 

I prefer to just use the Jack Morris was the best pitcher for the 80s argument.

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I like the Jack Morris body of work argument personally. Massive innings of quality performance and great results.

Great results? I don't even know what to do with that.

 

He was a league average pitcher for a long time. Not a hall of famer.

 

Even if you just take his peak, and take his best six-season run, he has just a 117 OPS+. That would have him tied for 159th all time. And that's his peak.

 

The fact that he even gets consideration is laughable.

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