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Loria leads fractured organization


pollythewog

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“There is concern among some of the folks in uniform that Loria is creating a problem with José Fernández that could become similar to what the Marlins had with Hanley Ramírez,� Olney wrote in his column today. Ramírez, as Marlins fans know too well, was traded to Los Angeles in July of last year—and now he’s helping the Dodgers march into the playoffs.

 

 

that sounds dumb. Though there were issues with Hanley, he was traded mainly because he was sucking for a year & a half and making most of the money on the team. Also Hanley and Jose seem about as opposite as you can get.

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This franchise has been crippled by crummy attendance from day one. Wayne won once because he spent big (unsustainable) money and got lucky. Loria won once only because he got lucky.

 

Who cares if some AAA guy or another wasn't called up? It's a minor, meaningless decision. And nobody here has any idea of how many goofy decisions have been made elsewhere. The real problem is that Lora is a Steinbrenner without pockets so deep that nobody cares about his quirks.

 

The next guy is going to have the same problems every owner has had, with the exception of getting a stadium built. Loria could sell tomorrow (not likely) and the new owner would be trashed within a year of having the same old crummy attendance.

 

Why the need to place blame? Drafting is a crap-shoot. Trades are a crap-shoot. FAs are a crap-shoot. Signing young players to long-term deals is a crap-shoot. Signing anyone to anything is a crap-shoot. We now know that even building a stadium is a crap-shoot.

 

The best assessor of talent in the world can wind up being a goat for reasons entirely beyond his control.

 

Beyond the tendency (and it's only a tendency) of big payrolls to win more rather than less, baseball is a random game of eights of an inch, not inches. Routine fly ball versus HR. Catching a ball versus not. Ball versus strike. Injury versus not.

 

Since the Marlins are unlikely to ever be owned by a baseball genius, the only hope is the mythical guy who doesn't care about losing 50 mill/year. Even if he existed, he'd still get trashed. 29 years out of 30, on average. More often, with a history like the Cubs.

 

 

Your last little bit there is just dumb. Who here doesn't want the best owner in all of sports to buy the marlins? Who here doesn't want him to also be a baseball genius? We don't even have the middle ground here. We have the worst owner in baseball. The absolute worst. Give me an average owner, please. Someone who hires baseball minds, and then lets them do their job. So tired of this micromanaging BS. I really feel bad for Beinfest and the rest of the FO.

 

 

This here is all that needs to be said.

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“There is concern among some of the folks in uniform that Loria is creating a problem with José Fernández that could become similar to what the Marlins had with Hanley Ramírez,� Olney wrote in his column today. Ramírez, as Marlins fans know too well, was traded to Los Angeles in July of last year—and now he’s helping the Dodgers march into the playoffs.

 

 

that sounds dumb. Though there were issues with Hanley, he was traded mainly because he was sucking for a year & a half and making most of the money on the team. Also Hanley and Jose seem about as opposite as you can get.

 

 

Yeah, this is a really strange quote, since everything I've heard is that Loria was the one guy who almost always had Hanley's back. It was everybody else who questioned Hanley and upset him.

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“There is concern among some of the folks in uniform that Loria is creating a problem with José Fernández that could become similar to what the Marlins had with Hanley Ramírez,� Olney wrote in his column today. Ramírez, as Marlins fans know too well, was traded to Los Angeles in July of last year—and now he’s helping the Dodgers march into the playoffs.

 

 

that sounds dumb. Though there were issues with Hanley, he was traded mainly because he was sucking for a year & a half and making most of the money on the team. Also Hanley and Jose seem about as opposite as you can get.

 

 

Yeah, this is a really strange quote, since everything I've heard is that Loria was the one guy who almost always had Hanley's back. It was everybody else who questioned Hanley and upset him.

 

 

 

 

If I had to guess I bet Olney is referring to how Loria loved Hanley and made it hard for Fredi/Edwin/Ozzie to manage him. Hanley knew he could get away with anything as he had Loria in his back pocket. I remeber reading you couldn't even criticize Hanley in front of Loria.

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“There is concern among some of the folks in uniform that Loria is creating a problem with José Fernández that could become similar to what the Marlins had with Hanley Ramírez,� Olney wrote in his column today. Ramírez, as Marlins fans know too well, was traded to Los Angeles in July of last year—and now he’s helping the Dodgers march into the playoffs.

 

 

that sounds dumb. Though there were issues with Hanley, he was traded mainly because he was sucking for a year & a half and making most of the money on the team. Also Hanley and Jose seem about as opposite as you can get.

 

 

Yeah, this is a really strange quote, since everything I've heard is that Loria was the one guy who almost always had Hanley's back. It was everybody else who questioned Hanley and upset him.

 

 

 

 

If I had to guess I bet Olney is referring to how Loria loved Hanley and made it hard for Fredi/Edwin/Ozzie to manage him. Hanley knew he could get away with anything as he had Loria in his back pocket.

 

 

 

Jose doesn't really have that issue thus far.

Hopefully he doesn't.

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This franchise has been crippled by crummy attendance from day one. Wayne won once because he spent big (unsustainable) money and got lucky. Loria won once only because he got lucky.

 

Who cares if some AAA guy or another wasn't called up? It's a minor, meaningless decision. And nobody here has any idea of how many goofy decisions have been made elsewhere. The real problem is that Lora is a Steinbrenner without pockets so deep that nobody cares about his quirks.

 

The next guy is going to have the same problems every owner has had, with the exception of getting a stadium built. Loria could sell tomorrow (not likely) and the new owner would be trashed within a year of having the same old crummy attendance.

 

Why the need to place blame? Drafting is a crap-shoot. Trades are a crap-shoot. FAs are a crap-shoot. Signing young players to long-term deals is a crap-shoot. Signing anyone to anything is a crap-shoot. We now know that even building a stadium is a crap-shoot.

 

The best assessor of talent in the world can wind up being a goat for reasons entirely beyond his control.

 

Beyond the tendency (and it's only a tendency) of big payrolls to win more rather than less, baseball is a random game of eights of an inch, not inches. Routine fly ball versus HR. Catching a ball versus not. Ball versus strike. Injury versus not.

 

Since the Marlins are unlikely to ever be owned by a baseball genius, the only hope is the mythical guy who doesn't care about losing 50 mill/year. Even if he existed, he'd still get trashed. 29 years out of 30, on average. More often, with a history like the Cubs.

 

Your last little bit there is just dumb. Who here doesn't want the best owner in all of sports to buy the marlins? Who here doesn't want him to also be a baseball genius? We don't even have the middle ground here. We have the worst owner in baseball. The absolute worst. Give me an average owner, please. Someone who hires baseball minds, and then lets them do their job. So tired of this micromanaging BS. I really feel bad for Beinfest and the rest of the FO.

This here is all that needs to be said.

 

I can't believe Loria has a team and Mark Cuban doesn't.

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“There is concern among some of the folks in uniform that Loria is creating a problem with José Fernández that could become similar to what the Marlins had with Hanley Ramírez,� Olney wrote in his column today. Ramírez, as Marlins fans know too well, was traded to Los Angeles in July of last year—and now he’s helping the Dodgers march into the playoffs.

 

 

that sounds dumb. Though there were issues with Hanley, he was traded mainly because he was sucking for a year & a half and making most of the money on the team. Also Hanley and Jose seem about as opposite as you can get.

 

 

Yeah, this is a really strange quote, since everything I've heard is that Loria was the one guy who almost always had Hanley's back. It was everybody else who questioned Hanley and upset him.

 

 

 

 

If I had to guess I bet Olney is referring to how Loria loved Hanley and made it hard for Fredi/Edwin/Ozzie to manage him. Hanley knew he could get away with anything as he had Loria in his back pocket. I remeber reading you couldn't even criticize Hanley in front of Loria.

 

 

 

 

This makes sense and actually sheds a little more light on the Redmond freak out over Jose (I still strongly disagree with it)

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He didnt' want to call up Vailaka? Good, some of us never wanted to see him.

 

He didn't want to call up a previously struggling at the MLB 2B' in Dietrich, good. Let him relax and get ready for 2014 and maybe the AFL.

 

This is the first time this season I've heard Beinfest being on the hot seat, I have a feeling Jeff Passan now works for Fox.

 

 

There is a difference between not calling up a guy for baseball reasons and not calling up a guy because of personal reasons.

 

 

I think baseball reasons are being masqueraded around as personal reasons when the media needs it to suit their narrative.

 

 

 

 

There has been too much smoke for me not to assume that there is a fire somewhere.

 

I could choose to believe that every person who had a personal issue with Loria was in the wrong but that just seems incredibly unlikely.

 

If the media was going to make up a story to bash Loria, they have much better ammunition than Vailaka.

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Isn't it obvious?

 

What we need is an owner who doesn't give a crap about losing 50 mill/per year, ad infinitum and will spend regardless of results. Loria is not that guy. Problem is, that guy probably doesn't exist.

 

Loria could sell tomorrow and the next guy is gonna struggle with the same lousy attendance and revenue for at least a decade, if not forever.

 

The good news is that they (and everyone else) will have 24-25 mill more to spend next year from the new TV deal. Plus the 8 mill they don't have to send to TOR. 32-33 mill ought to buy a bat or two.

 

 

You're creating a false dilemma here.

 

The only two options aren't the best owner ever or Loria. There are plenty of owners in between, like pretty much every other owner in baseball. There are other guys who want to buy the team like Cuban who would also be much better. If the economic environment of owning a team was as bleak as you try to pretend it is, then Loria can sell the team at a huge profit to someone else.

 

We don't need a guy who is willing to lose 50 mil/year. Just someone better than Loria. You seem to think there is no middle ground. This thread isn't even about money. Its about an owner who is letting his personal grudges cloud roster decisions. Does that guy not exist either?

 

I have zero faith this team will spend an extra 32 million next year. I do agree with you that they will have it, I just don't believe they will spend it.

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Loria is the worst owner in sports.

 

 

And holds grudges like nothing else. I thought it was common knowledge that Loria held back Valakia when Polanco went on the DL back in August. How else does that AAAA Gil Velasquez get called up? As I said to Admin a while back, Dietrich would be punished also for speaking out against Tino.

 

No other owner in MLB does crap like this. How anyone can defend him at this point is really beyond me.

 

While Beinfest needs to go, he deserves better. Same in many ways to Loria's biggest pawn over the years, in David Samson, Loria's personal mouthpiece.

 

 

As I stated about a month ago, and this article touched on, when was the last time we have heard any Samson-isms? For someone that apparently loves seeing his name in print and seeing himself on TV in interviews etc., he has been very silent. Something is going on there. Best bet is that he is on his way out. And not just out of the Marlins. Out of baseball. Who would hire him??? Unless mommy has married another owner.

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I would hire him. He was one of the biggest reasons we now have a ballpark. All local politics aside he gets s*** done and is very intelligent.

 

 

Plus he says bad words when we're about to send down our first baseman who just tied the game! :D

 

"You've gotta be shitting me!" He says, as Gaby Sanchez' fly ball clears the wall in right in what turns out to be his final Marlins at bat.

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Loria is the worst owner in sports.

 

 

And holds grudges like nothing else. I thought it was common knowledge that Loria held back Valakia when Polanco went on the DL back in August. How else does that AAAA Gil Velasquez get called up? As I said to Admin a while back, Dietrich would be punished also for speaking out against Tino.

 

No other owner in MLB does crap like this. How anyone can defend him at this point is really beyond me.

 

While Beinfest needs to go, he deserves better. Same in many ways to Loria's biggest pawn over the years, in David Samson, Loria's personal mouthpiece.

 

 

As I stated about a month ago, and this article touched on, when was the last time we have heard any Samson-isms? For someone that apparently loves seeing his name in print and seeing himself on TV in interviews etc., he has been very silent. Something is going on there. Best bet is that he is on his way out. And not just out of the Marlins. Out of baseball. Who would hire him??? Unless mommy has married another owner.

 

 

I just saw an article, Samson is going to start acting in a play locally. http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/cultist/2013/09/david_samson_you_ignorant_slut.php

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“There is concern among some of the folks in uniform that Loria is creating a problem with José Fernández that could become similar to what the Marlins had with Hanley Ramírez,� Olney wrote in his column today. Ramírez, as Marlins fans know too well, was traded to Los Angeles in July of last year—and now he’s helping the Dodgers march into the playoffs.

 

 

that sounds dumb. Though there were issues with Hanley, he was traded mainly because he was sucking for a year & a half and making most of the money on the team. Also Hanley and Jose seem about as opposite as you can get.

 

 

Yeah, this is a really strange quote, since everything I've heard is that Loria was the one guy who almost always had Hanley's back. It was everybody else who questioned Hanley and upset him.

 

 

 

 

If I had to guess I bet Olney is referring to how Loria loved Hanley and made it hard for Fredi/Edwin/Ozzie to manage him. Hanley knew he could get away with anything as he had Loria in his back pocket. I remeber reading you couldn't even criticize Hanley in front of Loria.

 

 

 

 

Olney was really vague on his meaning. I could see how it could mean either interpretation. If he does clarify I would hope someone posts it.

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I would hire him. He was one of the biggest reasons we now have a ballpark. All local politics aside he gets s*** done and is very intelligent.

 

 

Yea, he did. Along with some others that were hired JUST to secure the ball park. Then his comments after that pushed a large portion of the fan base away. I also don't see how the local politics end of it can just be put aside. Not saying there isn't crooked politicians in just about every county, but this deal highlighted it in Dade. Wasn't it the end of some political careers there?

 

I guess maybe a team like the Rays would hire him as a consultant for getting a new ball park. Gag his public speaking would have to be a requirement. Nothing else over there seems to be working.

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I would hire him. He was one of the biggest reasons we now have a ballpark. All local politics aside he gets s*** done and is very intelligent.

 

Yea, he did. Along with some others that were hired JUST to secure the ball park. Then his comments after that pushed a large portion of the fan base away. I also don't see how the local politics end of it can just be put aside. Not saying there isn't crooked politicians in just about every county, but this deal highlighted it in Dade. Wasn't it the end of some political careers there?

 

I guess maybe a team like the Rays would hire him as a consultant for getting a new ball park. Gag his public speaking would have to be a requirement. Nothing else over there seems to be working.You're pretty much the only person who was really offended by the comments you're currently referring to.

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Yeah... I mean it's the argument that some had after the fire sale, that even though 2012 was a disaster you shouldn't necessarily blow the thing up because they shouldn't have been that bad so maybe you stick with it for another season with some tweaks or whatever.

 

Biggest problem with the 2nd team WAR is that the two biggest contributers if I'm not mistaken are Anibal and Jose Fernandez. I don't think it's likely that Jose would've been a part of that team since he was called up mainly due to injuries (if you buy that). And Anibal was going to be traded anyway. I mean yeah Loria could've just signed him to a new deal or whatever but people weren't really ripping Loria for that one.

 

And for all the talk of Hanley's comeback, he wasn't great for LA last season after the trade either. Must've taken 3 months to get Miami out of his system?

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Pretty intriguing article about if Marlins had kept all their players. Obviously, all hypothetical/fun but still interesting especially the WAR amounts: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/if-the-marlins-werent-the-marlins/

 

 

For the lazy, like me:

 

 

VS

 

 

 

 

So many variables and it doesn't translate directly but there you go. Most likely an average team that costs a lot of money.

 

 

The variable are obviously far to complex to get a real reading as you say, but in the case of this graph, this puts them in the upper echelon of the NL and firmly in the wild card hunt...

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And for all the talk of Hanley's comeback, he wasn't great for LA last season after the trade either. Must've taken 3 months to get Miami out of his system?

 

 

Either way, he's great again. I remember like it was yesterday El Penguino said he'll never be a good hitter again. Now look at him. This won't keep up but he's better than he was the last two seasons.

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I would hire him. He was one of the biggest reasons we now have a ballpark. All local politics aside he gets s*** done and is very intelligent.

 

Yea, he did. Along with some others that were hired JUST to secure the ball park. Then his comments after that pushed a large portion of the fan base away. I also don't see how the local politics end of it can just be put aside. Not saying there isn't crooked politicians in just about every county, but this deal highlighted it in Dade. Wasn't it the end of some political careers there?

 

I guess maybe a team like the Rays would hire him as a consultant for getting a new ball park. Gag his public speaking would have to be a requirement. Nothing else over there seems to be working.You're pretty much the only person who was really offended by the comments you're currently referring to.

 

 

 

 

Not even close. Maybe the only one here being vocal about it, but by far not the only one in the real world.

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I would hire him. He was one of the biggest reasons we now have a ballpark. All local politics aside he gets s*** done and is very intelligent.

 

 

Yea, he did. Along with some others that were hired JUST to secure the ball park. Then his comments after that pushed a large portion of the fan base away. I also don't see how the local politics end of it can just be put aside. Not saying there isn't crooked politicians in just about every county, but this deal highlighted it in Dade. Wasn't it the end of some political careers there?

 

I guess maybe a team like the Rays would hire him as a consultant for getting a new ball park. Gag his public speaking would have to be a requirement. Nothing else over there seems to be working.

 

 

You are clearly still hurt over his comments about marlins fans up north.

 

 

 

 

It goes far past that.

 

But for those that don't think his mouth has gotten him into a lot of trouble in the past, you all must have either short or selective memories. Sometimes that's a pretty good thing. Just not in this case.

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