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I think I am done arguing with young earth creationists


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When I pointed out that calling me or anyone Bill Nye is not an insult, the response was "oh so you know him personally huh?"....I had always assumed that knowing Bill Nye is one of the most genuinely good and decent people around was just common knowledge.

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And I am officially out of the game. I had a minor hiccup when discussing the Israel/Gaza situation as I sometimes forget how gaga the people in this country are over Israel, and it got heated, but it never devolved into a religious discussion.

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Hmm. I have never gotten into any discussion of any kind with any "young earth creationist" or any bible-thumper of any kind. Or, for that matter any religious discussion of any kind. Or any discussion of abortion. There's no point.

 

I'm agnostic -- not anti-religion -- people can believe whatever they want, no skin off my butt. I have no time for the arguments of organized religion. And very little for even disorganized quasi-religion, say of the environmentalist/warmist/alarmist/we're all gonna die stripe.

 

But, I wonder what you mean by "gaga" as in "I sometimes forget how gaga the people in this country are over Israel."

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OK. What constitutes an attempt to justify their actions "to the point of irrationality"?

 

Just so you know where I'm coming from, if I'm the elected leader of a country (say Israel) and one of my (many) enemies (say Hamas) whose founding documents flat-out state their intent to destroy my country (something they refuse to disavow) and then they fire thousands of rockets intended to kill as many random civilians as possible (even if they aren't any good at it because I have good defenses) and build hundreds of tunnels to infiltrate my country so that they can kidnap citizens and hold them for ransom, I'm not going to sit by and do nothing about it.

 

Could be any country, could be any enemy. Nobody in their right mind does nothing about blatant acts of war.

 

Is taking action against the perpetrators (or defending it) rational? At what point does "justifying it" become irrational?

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Ah, yes, the immoral muck of moral equivalence.

 

Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza in 2005 -- OK, we're gone, you can govern yourselves. Have at it, we wish you the best, just leave us alone. We'll sell you all the electricity you need and anything else you want as long as you don't attack us.

 

They left behind thousands of greenhouses which produced flowers and vegetables for export. What happened to them? All destroyed and looted.

 

Hamas was elected in 2006. Hundreds of millions in aid have since flowed in to Gaza. Was it used to build a government and a functioning peaceful civil society? No, they built tunnels, smuggled arms and, of course, 15 or 20% off the top went to line the pockets of Hamas leaders.

 

Functioning government? Civil society? Nah, we don't need that. We want to destroy Israel. Tunnels and rockets, baby!

 

Hamas tries to kill as many Israeli civilians as it can, that's what they do. It's their entire reason for existing.

 

At the same time, they want as many dead Palestinians as possible. Which is why they store and fire rockets in and from schools and mosques and other civilian sites (including UN sites) subject to attack -- all for media effect.

 

Oh, look! A dead Palistinian! Israel bad! Israel evil! Never mind that the Palistinian is dead solely because of Hamas, sometimes to include misfiring rockets. Hamas obviously doesn't give a crap about what happens to any individual Palistinian, they only care about destroying Israel and publicity they can spin to that interest.

 

Israel tries to protect its own civilians from Hamas rocket fire and also tries to protect Palestinians by warning them before Hamas locations are going to be attacked. Sometimes called "knocking on the roof." Drop a harmless charge on a building to let them know that really bad, nasty stuff is coming soon. And by e-mail, telephone or social media. They warn their targets.

 

Could the contrast be any more striking or the moral equivalence any more nonexistent?

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Ah, yes, the immoral muck of moral equivalence.

 

Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza in 2005 -- OK, we're gone, you can govern yourselves. Have at it, we wish you the best, just leave us alone. We'll sell you all the electricity you need and anything else you want as long as you don't attack us.

 

They left behind thousands of greenhouses which produced flowers and vegetables for export. What happened to them? All destroyed and looted.

 

Hamas was elected in 2006. Hundreds of millions in aid have since flowed in to Gaza. Was it used to build a government and a functioning peaceful civil society? No, they built tunnels, smuggled arms and, of course, 15 or 20% off the top went to line the pockets of Hamas leaders.

 

Functioning government? Civil society? Nah, we don't need that. We want to destroy Israel. Tunnels and rockets, baby!

 

Hamas tries to kill as many Israeli civilians as it can, that's what they do. It's their entire reason for existing.

 

At the same time, they want as many dead Palestinians as possible. Which is why they store and fire rockets in and from schools and mosques and other civilian sites (including UN sites) subject to attack -- all for media effect.

 

Oh, look! A dead Palistinian! Israel bad! Israel evil! Never mind that the Palistinian is dead solely because of Hamas, sometimes to include misfiring rockets. Hamas obviously doesn't give a crap about what happens to any individual Palistinian, they only care about destroying Israel and publicity they can spin to that interest.

 

Israel tries to protect its own civilians from Hamas rocket fire and also tries to protect Palestinians by warning them before Hamas locations are going to be attacked. Sometimes called "knocking on the roof." Drop a harmless charge on a building to let them know that really bad, nasty stuff is coming soon. And by e-mail, telephone or social media. They warn their targets.

 

Could the contrast be any more striking or the moral equivalence any more nonexistent?

 

Couldn't disagree more. This a war systematically planned out by the Israelis. This guy does a pretty good job of explaining it (it has typos and some slurs but he's still getting the point across): http://pastebin.com/index/y2sj6Sh0

 

You also are trying to make it seem like Israel was being morally just for providing Palestinians with food and electricity. Who were the people that made the Palestinians reliant on such aid?

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Couldn't disagree more. This a war systematically planned out by the Israelis. This guy does a pretty good job of explaining it (it has typos and some slurs but he's still getting the point across): http://pastebin.com/index/y2sj6Sh0

 

You also are trying to make it seem like Israel was being morally just for providing Palestinians with food and electricity. Who were the people that made the Palestinians reliant on such aid?

 

Mr. Owens,

I see your new here.

 

Don't.

 

Just don't.

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The guy you link to is a Pali propagandist who calls Israelis "conniving rats" -- see, the anti-Semitism always, always leaks through no matter how hard they try to hide it, they just can't help themselves -- and apparently you're too gullible to be able to distinguish utter rubbish from reality.

 

For instance, "the agreement between hamas and abbas accepting a two state solution & recognition of Israel" is just internal Pali propaganda. Let me know when Hamas -- designated by the US government as a terrorist organization -- changes their charter which explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel. Until that happens, anything they say is meaningless.

 

The "'67 borders" will never be the basis for anything, they're not defensible. No "right of return" will ever be a part of any agreement, Israel is a Jewish state and intends to remain one. Israel is already about 25% Arab, and that's about how it will remain.

 

You also are trying to make it seem like Israel was being morally just for providing Palestinians with food and electricity. Who were the people that [sic] made the Palestinians reliant on such aid?

 

The answer to your question is very simple and obvious: the Palestinians. See, when you constantly try to kill Israelis and attack Israel, your access to everything is going to be restricted and monitored.

 

There's a naval blockade because the Israelis have no desire to allow Iran and Hezbollah to ship rockets directly to Hamas by sea. Instead, the terrorists running Hamas tunnel into Sinai and smuggle them in. They also tunnel into Israel so they can kill Israelis and take Israeli hostages.

 

Apologists for the Palis whine about not enough concrete for Gaza. What has maybe 90% of the concrete imported been used for? To build tunnels. I'll guess that from now on, every ton will have to have a destination like a road or a building and actually have to be used for that purpose.

 

Israel captured Gaza and all of the Sinai peninsula, along with the West Bank and the Golan Heights in the '67 war. They gave the Sinai back to Egypt to make peace, but Egypt may wish the Israelis had kept it, Sinai causes them nothing but problems. The Golan will never be given back, it's important Israeli defensive territory. West Bank is negotiable, but you have to have a negotiating partner who will actually agree (and mean it) that you have a right to exist.

 

Israel ran Gaza -- their territory as a result of the '67 war -- for 38 years. Then they unilaterally uprooted their own settlers and left the Palis there to their own devices. What did the Gazans do? They elected Hamas.

 

Not a good idea to elect a bunch of terrorists if you care about building a functioning society. Just as it wasn't a good idea for the Arabs to start wars they lost.

 

Best thing that can happen now is Israel completely wipes out Hamas and all of their rockets and tunnels. If not, the same crap of rocket and tunnel attacks will happen again in a few months or years.

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The guy you link to is a Pali propagandist who calls Israelis "conniving rats" -- see, the anti-Semitism always, always leaks through no matter how hard they try to hide it, they just can't help themselves -- and apparently you're too gullible to be able to distinguish utter rubbish from reality.

 

For instance, "the agreement between hamas and abbas accepting a two state solution & recognition of Israel" is just internal Pali propaganda. Let me know when Hamas -- designated by the US government as a terrorist organization -- changes their charter which explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel. Until that happens, anything they say is meaningless.

 

The "'67 borders" will never be the basis for anything, they're not defensible. No "right of return" will ever be a part of any agreement, Israel is a Jewish state and intends to remain one. Israel is already about 25% Arab, and that's about how it will remain.

 

 

The answer to your question is very simple and obvious: the Palestinians. See, when you constantly try to kill Israelis and attack Israel, your access to everything is going to be restricted and monitored.

 

There's a naval blockade because the Israelis have no desire to allow Iran and Hezbollah to ship rockets directly to Hamas by sea. Instead, the terrorists running Hamas tunnel into Sinai and smuggle them in. They also tunnel into Israel so they can kill Israelis and take Israeli hostages.

 

Apologists for the Palis whine about not enough concrete for Gaza. What has maybe 90% of the concrete imported been used for? To build tunnels. I'll guess that from now on, every ton will have to have a destination like a road or a building and actually have to be used for that purpose.

 

Israel captured Gaza and all of the Sinai peninsula, along with the West Bank and the Golan Heights in the '67 war. They gave the Sinai back to Egypt to make peace, but Egypt may wish the Israelis had kept it, Sinai causes them nothing but problems. The Golan will never be given back, it's important Israeli defensive territory. West Bank is negotiable, but you have to have a negotiating partner who will actually agree (and mean it) that you have a right to exist.

 

Israel ran Gaza -- their territory as a result of the '67 war -- for 38 years. Then they unilaterally uprooted their own settlers and left the Palis there to their own devices. What did the Gazans do? They elected Hamas.

 

Not a good idea to elect a bunch of terrorists if you care about building a functioning society. Just as it wasn't a good idea for the Arabs to start wars they lost.

 

Best thing that can happen now is Israel completely wipes out Hamas and all of their rockets and tunnels. If not, the same crap of rocket and tunnel attacks will happen again in a few months or years.

 

This is why I told you not to, lol. Welcome to the board Eric Owens.

 

And Penguino- it was my 9th grade teacher.

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The guy you link to is a Pali propagandist who calls Israelis "conniving rats" -- see, the anti-Semitism always, always leaks through no matter how hard they try to hide it, they just can't help themselves -- and apparently you're too gullible to be able to distinguish utter rubbish from reality.

 

I doubt this guy is Palestinian propagandist since he called Hamas a bunch of sandn**ggers. Also your anti-semitic claim is also misguided. He wrote a fair amount on why he believes the higher ups of the Israeli government are literally scheming behind closed doors in order to control all of Palestine and yet he's anti-semitic for calling them "conniving rats?" If what he's saying is true than yes, they are much worse than conniving rats.

 

 

For instance, "the agreement between hamas and abbas accepting a two state solution & recognition of Israel" is just internal Pali propaganda. Let me know when Hamas -- designated by the US government as a terrorist organization -- changes their charter which explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel. Until that happens, anything they say is meaningless.

 

How is the agreement propaganda? Did it not happen? The only reason Israel is against the agreement is because it is easier to steal when the population of Palestine is divided. It's also convenient to label a group of people terrorists for fighting against people who have been oppressing for over 60 years in order to say "Hey, we just want peace but we don't negotiate with terrorists." Besides, Hamas has already said they'd recognize Israel if there was an actual peace agreement which benefited the Palestinian people. Hamas has evolved since the 80's when Israel first created it. It's run by totally different people who understand they'll never get anywhere without negotiating.

 

 

The "'67 borders" will never be the basis for anything, they're not defensible. No "right of return" will ever be a part of any agreement, Israel is a Jewish state and intends to remain one. Israel is already about 25% Arab, and that's about how it will remain.

 

Why wouldn't they be defensible exactly? You seem to think the Palestinians would be thirsty for blood if they actually got a county of their own with 67 border. All Palestinians want is a chance to be sovereign and live a normal life. I guarantee you the fighting would stop if 67 borders were restored, the settlers were kicked out of the West Bank, and East Jerusalem was under Palestinian control. Right of return is a long shot but that's what people do when they negotiate, they set their goals and then compromise.

 

As for the rest of your post, you seem to be forgetting the laws of cause and effect. Palestinian resistance is an effect, not a cause. The cause of Palestinian resistance is a result of groups like Irgun committing countless massaces in Palestine in order to drive the British out and cause fear among the Palestinians (and also having many prominent leader get elected into the future Israeli government eventually leading to the modern Likud party. This is why its funny when you complain that Gaza is run by terrorists.) It's also a result killing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and creating millions of refugees over the course of their brutal occupation. Settlements, the ultimate sign of Israel's true intentions of colonialism, is also to blame for the Palestinian resistance. I can't begin to touch on all of Israel's disgusting actions which has provoked the Palestinians but just remember that Palestinians don't fight because their thirsty for blood or because they follow a savage religion. They fight because they would rather die fighting an oppressor than die of old age in prison.

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Dude, when you don't have even a remotely passing acquaintance with reality, you're completely and totally hopeless. You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. BS propaganda, which you seem to have sucked up in vast volumes doesn't count. Thus, I won't be bothering further with you, it's a waste of time.

 

You should face-palm yourself.

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Dude, when you don't have even a remotely passing acquaintance with reality, you're completely and totally hopeless. You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. BS propaganda, which you seem to have sucked up in vast volumes doesn't count. Thus, I won't be bothering further with you, it's a waste of time.

 

You should face-palm yourself.

 

I don't see how what i said is propaganda but sure i won't continue.

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Nothing amazing about it, I'm not going to waste any time engaging a factual vacuum. I'm not a Jew, but I certainly understand how they must feel as they encounter one clueless moron after another who have been spoon-fed total BS and believe every word of it.

 

You want to write a book to educate this sorry excuse for a "debater" who has no answer to any fact other than to regurgitate yet more propaganda? Feel free. I've got better things to do.

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