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Article about Dee Gordon


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He has a point, but overall criticism about Dee is still fair. He still doesn't make enough contact, still has no power and still historically is a sub par defender.

 

Glen is a part of a little sub-cult group of Marlin fans that are extremely defensive about Dee Gordon.

 

 

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He has a point, but overall criticism about Dee is still fair. He still doesn't make enough contact, still has no power and still historically is a sub par defender.

 

Glen is a part of a little sub-cult group of Marlin fans that are extremely defensive about Dee Gordon.

 

​Unfortunately I'm one of the weirdos in the Dee cult. I believe in things like "he changes the dynamic of our lineup" and stuff.

 

 

 

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He has a point, but overall criticism about Dee is still fair. He still doesn't make enough contact, still has no power and still historically is a sub par defender.

 

Glen is a part of a little sub-cult group of Marlin fans that are extremely defensive about Dee Gordon.

 

​Unfortunately I'm one of the weirdos in the Dee cult. I believe in things like "he changes the dynamic of our lineup" and stuff.

 

 

When he's on base, absolutely.

 

 

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He has a point, but overall criticism about Dee is still fair. He still doesn't make enough contact, still has no power and still historically is a sub par defender.

 

Glen is a part of a little sub-cult group of Marlin fans that are extremely defensive about Dee Gordon.

 

​Dee was a better 2b than Adeiny was a SS last year but whatever. He's fine a 2b.

 

Regarding contact, if anything he makes too much contact (horrendous walk rate). His k rate really isn't that atrocious. If he could just be a more patient and get a 7-8% walk rate you might see me in the Dee cult as well cause that speed is so sexxxxxxy.

 

 

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He has a point, but overall criticism about Dee is still fair. He still doesn't make enough contact, still has no power and still historically is a sub par defender.

 

Glen is a part of a little sub-cult group of Marlin fans that are extremely defensive about Dee Gordon.

 

​Dee was a better 2b than Adeiny was a SS last year but whatever. He's fine a 2b.

 

Regarding contact, if anything he makes too much contact (horrendous walk rate). His k rate really isn't that atrocious. If he could just be a more patient and get a 7-8% walk rate you might see me in the Dee cult as well cause that speed is so sexxxxxxy.

 

​You didn't read the article, did you?

 

 

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He has a point, but overall criticism about Dee is still fair. He still doesn't make enough contact, still has no power and still historically is a sub par defender.

 

Glen is a part of a little sub-cult group of Marlin fans that are extremely defensive about Dee Gordon.

 

​Dee was a better 2b than Adeiny was a SS last year but whatever. He's fine a 2b.

 

Regarding contact, if anything he makes too much contact (horrendous walk rate). His k rate really isn't that atrocious. If he could just be a more patient and get a 7-8% walk rate you might see me in the Dee cult as well cause that speed is so sexxxxxxy.

 

​You didn't read the article, did you?

 

​I did but what does that have to do with Jay Ram's post which is what I'm responding to?

 

 

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He has a point, but overall criticism about Dee is still fair. He still doesn't make enough contact, still has no power and still historically is a sub par defender.

 

Glen is a part of a little sub-cult group of Marlin fans that are extremely defensive about Dee Gordon.

 

​Dee was a better 2b than Adeiny was a SS last year but whatever. He's fine a 2b.

 

Regarding contact, if anything he makes too much contact (horrendous walk rate). His k rate really isn't that atrocious. If he could just be a more patient and get a 7-8% walk rate you might see me in the Dee cult as well cause that speed is so sexxxxxxy.

 

He's better than Hech. Wtf is that supposed to say?

 

I'm not complaining about Dee being an 8th hole hitter. The Marlins are really forcing the issue with him leading off and I hope he becomes an outlier because, like you said, the speed is sexy.

 

But my response is to Glen's defensive tone as if we are over critisizing Dee and there is no merit to the criticism. I also interacted with him on twitter about it. He just repeated himself and then ignored me. It just seems like a defiant tone.

 

We're just pointing out facts.

 

 

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He has a point, but overall criticism about Dee is still fair. He still doesn't make enough contact, still has no power and still historically is a sub par defender.

 

Glen is a part of a little sub-cult group of Marlin fans that are extremely defensive about Dee Gordon.

 

​Unfortunately I'm one of the weirdos in the Dee cult. I believe in things like "he changes the dynamic of our lineup" and stuff.

 

 

Can you at least acknowledge that he doesn't shit roses and there are legit concerns about his contact rates and ability to get on base enough for a first hitter?

 

We can acknowledge that and still be hopeful that he improves and it works out. But as of now his track record suggests that it's tough to envision him getting on base enough to 'change he lineup'

 

 

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He has a point, but overall criticism about Dee is still fair. He still doesn't make enough contact, still has no power and still historically is a sub par defender.

 

Glen is a part of a little sub-cult group of Marlin fans that are extremely defensive about Dee Gordon.

 

​Unfortunately I'm one of the weirdos in the Dee cult. I believe in things like "he changes the dynamic of our lineup" and stuff.

 

 

Can you at least acknowledge that he doesn't shit roses and there are legit concerns about his contact rates and ability to get on base enough for a first hitter?

 

We can acknowledge that and still be hopeful that he improves and it works out. But as of now his track record suggests that it's tough to envision him getting on base enough to 'change he lineup'

 

He's not perfect. With that said he absolutely changes the dynamic of our entire lineup and he only does that from the top. He has the kind of speed that changes the way people play the game when he's on base, and I'm confident he will get on base enough to force those changes and benefit the hitters behind him.

 

 

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He has a point, but overall criticism about Dee is still fair. He still doesn't make enough contact, still has no power and still historically is a sub par defender.

 

Glen is a part of a little sub-cult group of Marlin fans that are extremely defensive about Dee Gordon.

 

​Unfortunately I'm one of the weirdos in the Dee cult. I believe in things like "he changes the dynamic of our lineup" and stuff.

 

 

Can you at least acknowledge that he doesn't shit roses and there are legit concerns about his contact rates and ability to get on base enough for a first hitter?

 

We can acknowledge that and still be hopeful that he improves and it works out. But as of now his track record suggests that it's tough to envision him getting on base enough to 'change he lineup'

 

He's not perfect. With that said he absolutely changes the dynamic of our entire lineup and he only does that from the top. He has the kind of speed that changes the way people play the game when he's on base, and I'm confident he will get on base enough to force those changes and benefit the hitters behind him.

 

What do you predict his batting line will be this season? Avg/OBP

 

 

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He has a point, but overall criticism about Dee is still fair. He still doesn't make enough contact, still has no power and still historically is a sub par defender.

 

Glen is a part of a little sub-cult group of Marlin fans that are extremely defensive about Dee Gordon.

 

​Unfortunately I'm one of the weirdos in the Dee cult. I believe in things like "he changes the dynamic of our lineup" and stuff.

 

 

Can you at least acknowledge that he doesn't shit roses and there are legit concerns about his contact rates and ability to get on base enough for a first hitter?

 

We can acknowledge that and still be hopeful that he improves and it works out. But as of now his track record suggests that it's tough to envision him getting on base enough to 'change he lineup'

 

He's not perfect. With that said he absolutely changes the dynamic of our entire lineup and he only does that from the top. He has the kind of speed that changes the way people play the game when he's on base, and I'm confident he will get on base enough to force those changes and benefit the hitters behind him.

 

What do you predict his batting line will be this season? Avg/OBP

 

​It's Wild Card, so he'll say ...

 

.320/.659/.300

 

Yes, slugging lower than average!

 

 

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Players like Gordon and Hech get so much criticism that they're sort of becoming underrated.

 

Overrated by the front office, but still, it could be worse.

 

If they both do what they did last year, that'd be good enough. Dee had a very good year last year overall actually.

 

 

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Players like Gordon and Hech get so much criticism that they're sort of becoming underrated.

 

Overrated by the front office, but still, it could be worse.

 

If they both do what they did last year, that'd be good enough. Dee had a very good year last year overall actually.

 

Really good point. If you only read opinions of them on this forum you'd be amazed when you see Hech hit a single.

 

 

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Why are you confident he will get on base enough? There is absolutely nothing to support that line of thought?

 

The majority of his minor league career paired with his first complete major league season. You and I went through this well before we even acquired Dee. His professional career as a whole suggests his BABIP is sustainable and putting guys like Yelich and Stanton behind him is ideal.

 

To add to this as well as answer JayRam, I predict his line to be around .290/.330/.390. He doesn't NEED to get on base more than that to be a menace in the lead off spot. Would it be nice, certainly, but that would be acceptable and he will still score 110 runs if he stays healthy.

 

 

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While I don't see Dee Gordon putting up a high OBP, I'm of the opinion that you are limiting his skill set putting him somewhere in the lineup other than first. Even if he only posts an OBP of .300, you still have to bat in first for those sixty plus stolen bases. He creates so many RISP opportunities all by himself that with Yelich/Stanton/Morse/Ozuna all behind him...it's just wrong not to give them that chance (That said, if he could start becoming mini Juan Pierre that would be greeaaaaaaaaat).

 

 

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Also, Gordon's second half wasn't as atrocious as many people make it out to be now. Yes, walking four times in a half a season is just awful. But he hit well enough that it didn't look like a total trainwreck like Hechavarria's 2013 season.

 

Given how Gordon relies on contact, I think the openness of Marlins Park could help him get some extra base hits. His history suggests he wasn't worth Heaney and the rest of what we gave up, but he's a vast improvement over what we've put at 2nd base since Uggla was traded. If he even repeats what he did the second half of last season he's at least a little valuable (although obviously we traded for first half Gordon).

 

I'm willing to make excuses for Gordon for the time being. He's young, he's got a very valuable trait, and he's decent enough in the field. We just have to wait and see how things go.

 

 

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Players like Gordon and Hech get so much criticism that they're sort of becoming underrated.

 

Overrated by the front office, but still, it could be worse.

 

If they both do what they did last year, that'd be good enough. Dee had a very good year last year overall actually.

 

​Hech had an improved year but no matter how you look at it, Gordon's second half was bad. It's definitely something to be concerned about.

 

​He's not as good as his first half, and not as bad as his second half.

 

He had a 3.1 fWAR last year. Even if he regresses, he's still a useful player. If you look at the totality of his season, it's not absurd to think he can do something like .289/.326/.378 again. It's not a big deal if he does a bit worse than that either.

 

No team in the big leagues is perfect. If the team stays healthy, the infield just needs to be not laughably bad as it's been the past couple of years.

 

Dee had the second best value in the big leagues on the bases last year. It's an elite skill.

 

Instead of worrying about the middle infield (we've already established what they are), lets create some threads about Jarrod Saltalamacchia who absolutely sucks at everything. I'm looking forward to the day he's replaced. For whatever reason, Saltalamacchia doesn't seem to draw as much criticism as these two guys even though he really sucks and he's paid more. Saltalamacchia will be my new Wes Helms this year.

 

 

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Players like Gordon and Hech get so much criticism that they're sort of becoming underrated.

 

Overrated by the front office, but still, it could be worse.

 

If they both do what they did last year, that'd be good enough. Dee had a very good year last year overall actually.

 

​Hech had an improved year but no matter how you look at it, Gordon's second half was bad. It's definitely something to be concerned about.

 

​He's not as good as his first half, and not as bad as his second half.

 

He had a 3.1 fWAR last year. Even if he regresses, he's still a useful player. If you look at the totality of his season, it's not absurd to think he can do something like .289/.326/.378 again. It's not a big deal if he does a bit worse than that either.

 

No team in the big leagues is perfect. If the team stays healthy, the infield just needs to be not laughably bad as it's been the past couple of years.

 

Dee had the second best value in the big leagues on the bases last year. It's an elite skill.

 

Instead of worrying about the middle infield (we've already established what they are), lets create some threads about Jarrod Saltalamacchia who absolutely sucks at everything. I'm looking forward to the day he's replaced. For whatever reason, Saltalamacchia doesn't seem to draw as much criticism as these two guys even though he really sucks and he's paid more. Saltalamacchia will be my new Wes Helms this year.

 

​It's absurd to call him underrated, when he's clearly overrated.

 

He's not going to steal 64 again. .346 BABIP is high, even with his speed. That # is coming down. He doesn't walk.

 

He's going to be a 1.5WAR player IMO. Which is fine, but he's not underrated.

 

​I said the front office was overrating his abilities. You didn't understand my point. Your opinion about whether his #'s are repeatable are just an opinion so it doesn't really mean anything to be fair. The #'s you posted which he put up last year are not absurd considering his skill set.

 

 

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Players like Gordon and Hech get so much criticism that they're sort of becoming underrated.

 

Overrated by the front office, but still, it could be worse.

 

If they both do what they did last year, that'd be good enough. Dee had a very good year last year overall actually.

 

​Hech had an improved year but no matter how you look at it, Gordon's second half was bad. It's definitely something to be concerned about.

 

​He's not as good as his first half, and not as bad as his second half.

 

He had a 3.1 fWAR last year. Even if he regresses, he's still a useful player. If you look at the totality of his season, it's not absurd to think he can do something like .289/.326/.378 again. It's not a big deal if he does a bit worse than that either.

 

No team in the big leagues is perfect. If the team stays healthy, the infield just needs to be not laughably bad as it's been the past couple of years.

 

Dee had the second best value in the big leagues on the bases last year. It's an elite skill.

 

Instead of worrying about the middle infield (we've already established what they are), lets create some threads about Jarrod Saltalamacchia who absolutely sucks at everything. I'm looking forward to the day he's replaced. For whatever reason, Saltalamacchia doesn't seem to draw as much criticism as these two guys even though he really sucks and he's paid more. Saltalamacchia will be my new Wes Helms this year.

 

​It's absurd to call him underrated, when he's clearly overrated.

 

He's not going to steal 64 again. .346 BABIP is high, even with his speed. That # is coming down. He doesn't walk.

 

He's going to be a 1.5WAR player IMO. Which is fine, but he's not underrated.

 

​I said the front office was overrating his abilities. You didn't understand my point. Your opinion about whether his #'s are repeatable are just an opinion so it doesn't really mean anything to be fair. The #'s you posted which he put up last year are not absurd considering his skill set.

 

I'm arguing you first sentence where you said Gordon is sort of becoming underrated. That's ridiculous.

 

​YOU'RE RIDICULOUS!

 

 

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Players like Gordon and Hech get so much criticism that they're sort of becoming underrated.

 

Overrated by the front office, but still, it could be worse.

 

If they both do what they did last year, that'd be good enough. Dee had a very good year last year overall actually.

 

​Hech had an improved year but no matter how you look at it, Gordon's second half was bad. It's definitely something to be concerned about.

 

​He's not as good as his first half, and not as bad as his second half.

 

He had a 3.1 fWAR last year. Even if he regresses, he's still a useful player. If you look at the totality of his season, it's not absurd to think he can do something like .289/.326/.378 again. It's not a big deal if he does a bit worse than that either.

 

No team in the big leagues is perfect. If the team stays healthy, the infield just needs to be not laughably bad as it's been the past couple of years.

 

Dee had the second best value in the big leagues on the bases last year. It's an elite skill.

 

Instead of worrying about the middle infield (we've already established what they are), lets create some threads about Jarrod Saltalamacchia who absolutely sucks at everything. I'm looking forward to the day he's replaced. For whatever reason, Saltalamacchia doesn't seem to draw as much criticism as these two guys even though he really sucks and he's paid more. Saltalamacchia will be my new Wes Helms this year.

 

​It's absurd to call him underrated, when he's clearly overrated.

 

He's not going to steal 64 again. .346 BABIP is high, even with his speed. That # is coming down. He doesn't walk.

 

He's going to be a 1.5WAR player IMO. Which is fine, but he's not underrated.

 

​I said the front office was overrating his abilities. You didn't understand my point. Your opinion about whether his #'s are repeatable are just an opinion so it doesn't really mean anything to be fair. The #'s you posted which he put up last year are not absurd considering his skill set.

 

I'm arguing you first sentence where you said Gordon is sort of becoming underrated. That's ridiculous.

 

​I said they've been criticized so much on here that it's making them underrated.

 

Because our front office has a knack for saying dumb things about skills they overvalue like speed, people on this board have lost appreciation for this type of player.

 

For example, your comment that there's no way that Dee Gordon is going to post a .346 .BABIP again. That's a bit ridiculous. Just because he doesn't walk doesn't mean he completely sucks as a hitter. His speed allows him to get cheap hits that the average player won't get. He generally posted high .BABIP's in the minor leagues.

 

Just because league average .BABIP is near .300 doesn't mean every player is going to regress to that. Maybe Gordon sucks next year, but I think it's reasonable to expect a similar .BABIP #. If we're expecting players to regress to league average .BABIP's, we should start a thread about every player and how much this team is going to suck because our whole entire team had a high .BABIP last year. Certain players have a skill set that allows them to do this.

 

Dee is still young enough and unproven enough to be considered an unknown. He's gotten a lot of criticism on here for a guy who just posted a ~3 WAR last year in his age 23 season. He's not a perfect player by any stretch of the imagination, but he's still a young player who's likely to put up similar #'s to the ones he put up last year, which would make him a part of the core this team is trying to build when considering the position he plays.

 

It's the same with Hechavarria. For all the criticism he receives (in part because he's not that good, but also in part because the entire organization overrates him and it's annoying), the reality is that he's not far off from being just another league average SS. In Hechavarria's case, it's tough to evaluate him because certain defensive metrics differ on just how good/bad he is defensively. If he can continue at last year's pace though, I'm guessing we all wouldn't mind. Every good team has players like this around their actual star players. It's not a big deal. It's possible that both of these guys regress and our middle infield is ass next year, but, then again, it's also possible that many other players regress and no one is talking about those guys.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to expect our middle infield to do what they did last year (especially Dee), and that would be just fine. Dee Gordon doesn't need to walk more; he just needs to do what he did last year.

 

 

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