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Scouts were worried about Kolek's control before he played in the Marlins system. I saw the tape of him in some kind of amateur futures game and the dude was all over the place. He kind of rose to the top of the draft board suddenly towards the end when there was some concern over Rodon's health. Scouts liked his raw talent, but everyone seemed to agree that it was a risky move. I don't see a lot of justification for drafting him.

 

Some people here wanted Trea Turner.

 

 

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Loved Trea Turner. His stock fell mightly come the draft though because of money demands I remember. He was also seen as a safe pick, a likely to make the majors but potentially become a mediocre career player (basically a Hechavarria). He was known more for his defensive prowess than his hitting in college I remember. Nobody saw him hitting this well this quickly in the majors. That said again he was a top 10 pick that only fell a little further because only the top franchises had the money to pay the bonus he wanted. He wasn't in top 2 discussion beyond the first few months of draft talk.

 

Justification for Kolek was raw talent you can't find at 18 years old with mechanic issues that minor league coaches could fix. They couldn't, and it ultimately led to arm troubles. If Rodon wasn't in that draft, I would defend the Kolek pick to this day. He was clearly one of the top young players at that time. It's also one of the caveats of the draft process. 

 

The bigger problem than failing on the #2 pick is not doing well in later rounds. There have been no steal picks taken and very few if any since 2012 that have shown consistent major league abilities. 

 

 

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I remember things I read. If you think I am confusing the issue by bringing up other points, that's fine.

 

I didn't like the Kolek draft either, mostly because of Rodon, but I also think the Marlins sign high school guys to save money and that is on ownership.

 

The team is desperately trying to compensate for issues.  Being desperate doesn't strengthen your hand in trade talks, and not having any real big chips to trade (due to issues predating Hill's top job), limits what the guy can do.  We have a contending team, put together under adverse circumstances, and none of the gains are credited to the guy where blame for all of the challenges is applied.

 

 

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The picking of Kolek was Mike Hill seeing a radar gun number and feeling that could be translated into something of great success in the bigs.

 

Nevermind that all his secondary stuff was trash.

 

His control was trash.

 

His mechanics were trash.

 

But you know, he could throw 100 mph and he can be signed for well under slot, so hell yes lets nab him.

 

Mike Hill is the problem, but Jeff Loria caring more about making money makes it even worse, and hamstrings an already terrible GM/President.

 

 

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Kolek and Naylor were terrible picks and were both conducted under Hill's tenure as the guy in charge.

 

How do we know Hill didn't want Rodon?  Maybe he did but Loria wouldn't approve the subsequent cost. 

 

 

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Weren't you just bashing "what if" scenarios like a second ago?

 

It's possible he did. But I don't think I would justify seeing Kolek as the only alternative to Rodon.

 

 

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while im sure money was part of it, Kolek does fit more in the mold of what the marlins like to draft in texas arms with a big fastball. fastball turned out to be not so big and for some reason (prob goes along with samson saying they have a bunch of #3s even before chen) the marlins didnt think they needed a polished college arm that could be starting within a year of drafting

 

 

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Finally, Hill is not by any means exculpated from the lack of decent trade chips this season. He had bad draft years under his watch that extend beyond the first round.

 

While Loria is a detriment to the Marlins baseball operations, I think you much too easily let Hill off the hook, when he has a lot of control over scouting and organizational depth.

 

For one, if the Hill had not traded Paddack so early, it's very possible that they could have gotten someone different than Cashner or not needed to have given up Capps in acquiring him. The sequence of trades that were executed showed no real long term vision for improving the team's most pressing needs. That largely explains why the Marlins were having so much difficulty finding trade partners around the deadline.

 

 

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The picking of Kolek was Mike Hill seeing a radar gun number and feeling that could be translated into something of great success in the bigs.

 

Nevermind that all his secondary stuff was trash.

 

His control was trash.

 

His mechanics were trash.

 

But you know, he could throw 100 mph and he can be signed for well under slot, so hell yes lets nab him.

 

Mike Hill is the problem, but Jeff Loria caring more about making money makes it even worse, and hamstrings an already terrible GM/President.

 

Yeah, exactly. The main reason why Kolek was taken was because he was a high school arm who could be signed under slot. That's more on Loria than anyone else. 

 

 

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Loria wasn't the owner. 

 

So isn't there a chance that not all fans hate their GMs or managers? Perhaps Loria just has a habit of hiring really shitty people?

 

He hires people for dumb reasons too--Ozzie Guillen because he brings "attention" to the Marlins. Loria thought the 2012 Marlins were in the WWE.

 

 

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So isn't there a chance that not all fans hate their GMs or managers? Perhaps Loria just has a habit of hiring really shitty people?

 

He hires people for dumb reasons too--Ozzie Guillen because he brings "attention" to the Marlins. Loria thought the 2012 Marlins were in the WWE.

 

Yes, this has been exactly my point in the last few pages of the thread. If Hill gets fired, it'll just be some other guy. 

 

 

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I'm actually pretty convinced that Loria has done a lot of GM'ing over the years behind the scenes much like Jerry Jones in the NFL. Just because he's not the GM doesn't mean that he's not calling the shots. Apparently, that's changed a bit in recent years, but there were several reports a few years back about how controlling he was in the decision-making process. 

 

 

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And the reason why Mike Hill stayed was because he was more Loria's yes man than anything else. Wasn't that why Beinfest was fired? It became Beinfest against Hill/Jennings pretty much. Beinfest didn't want to be controlled and he was fired because of it. 

 

 

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Yeah, exactly. The main reason why Kolek was taken was because he was a high school arm who could be signed under slot. That's more on Loria than anyone else. 

 

Of course. Everyone but el penguino knows this. 

 

 

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Also, the Chen signing is a negative mark on his resume, not a positive one. Loria gave him money to play with and he made a bad decision.

 

[This may have already been addressed, I've still got three pages to sift through after this]

 

Chen may have been injured coming into the season, exacerbated by being hit with the line drive on opening day. I'll have to give him a pass on this one for that reason, so we'll see. I will say an overpay still, but that's the market these days. Everyone is overpaid. Even Kershaw.

 

Even @Admin.

 

 

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[This may have already been addressed, I've still got three pages to sift through after this]

 

Chen may have been injured coming into the season, exacerbated by being hit with the line drive on opening day. I'll have to give him a pass on this one for that reason, so we'll see. I will say an overpay still, but that's the market these days. Everyone is overpaid. Even Kershaw.

 

Even @Admin.

 

@Admin is paid fairly considering how little he does.

 

 

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The sequence of trades that were executed showed no real long term vision for improving the team's most pressing needs.

 

I'm not reading this whole thread but this to me is the major problem. And I don't mean Mike Hill, I meant the front office since Loria has been here (and the general consensus is that Loria meddles a lot). You can tell by the moves they make they have no serious plan in place to execute.

 

They preach things like ground ball pitchers, yet are normally in the bottom half of GB% (6th worst this year). You have things like trading a near-mlb ready top 3b prospect, and then trading your starting 3b. You can go all the way back to 2004 when they traded D-Lee because of $$...then signed Carlos Delgrado the next off season.

 

There's just no long term vision, not plan of execution, nothing that's at least apparent from watching them build a club. Eg Royals build a FB% heavy staff with great defensive OFers and a huge stadium. Marlins build a FB% heavy staff, preach about IF defense, and move in the walls.

 

 

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Agreed.

 

I also think some people here are speculating too much about Loria's role.

 

Isn't it possible he's at most saying "upgrade the rotation?" And not saying "bring me Cashner?" Or not saying "unload Carter Capps?"

 

 

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Agreed.

 

I also think some people here are speculating too much about Loria's role.

 

Isn't it possible he's at most saying "upgrade the rotation?" And not saying "bring me Cashner?" Or not saying "unload Carter Capps?"

 

It's also possible that these trades wouldn't be made if it weren't for his cheap past. If he'd spend more money, our farm system would be better and we'd have more assets to trade. 

 

 

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