jonnylons Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Here is an article from Palm Beach Post, read and consider: Sunday, December 7 Were Marlins serious about keeping Pudge? By Joe Capozzi, Palm Beach Post Staff Writer Mike Lowell, a genuinely likable guy with strong ties to Miami, is blossoming into quite a commodity for the Florida Marlins. You might call the All-Star third baseman and unofficial clubhouse leader the king or prince of the team. "Pawn" might be a better word after watching the front office at work last week. On Tuesday, the Marlins announced they had made a contract offer to catcher Pudge Rodriguez, the MVP of the National League Championship Series who signed a one-year deal with Florida in January. On Wednesday, the Marlins signed Lowell to a "stadium-sensitive" contract worth a potential $32 million for four years. His contract is guaranteed for next season, but the rest of it kicks in only if the team wins financial support by Nov. 1, 2004, for a new stadium. Marlins President David Samson said the team will know during spring training whether it will get a ballpark. That's because the Miami-Dade County Commission set March 15 as a deadline for the team to secure the final $115 million it needs, presumably from the state or the city of Miami, for ballpark construction. If the team fails to find that money, the commission will withdraw its $73 million pledge for the stadium. "There is no Mike Lowell without a stadium,'' Samson said, before denying that Lowell was being dangled to help win public support for the stadium. Back up a day to Tuesday, when the Marlins made the offer to Rodriguez. They could have extended an offer earlier in the off-season. Instead, they waited more than five weeks, doing so only five days before a negotiating deadline that expires at 11:59 tonight. Now, consider that Lowell is in his final year of arbitration. The Marlins didn't have to worry about his contract until Jan. 5-15, the filing period for salary arbitration. Instead, the team paraded Lowell in front of TV cameras last week while owner Jeffrey Loria said, "Good things happen to good people.'' That same day, the team also said it reached a deal to re-sign free-agent second baseman Luis Castillo. That made it a two-run public-relations home run -- two key components of the infield in one day. The Marlins certainly hope -- or perhaps this was part of their plan -- that the goodwill from the Lowell deal will linger through Monday morning to neutralize what will be a public-relations strikeout if headlines across South Florida trumpet the departure of Rodriguez. Hey, the Marlins will tell the public, we gave our best good-faith offer to Pudge within our operating parameters, but at least Lowell and Castillo are coming back. Imagine if the Marlins hadn't yet signed Lowell and Castillo, then had to announce that Rodriguez wouldn't be back. Ouch. To the club's credit, it's a slick PR move, but it also raises the question of whether the Marlins, facing a payroll cap of $60 million, seriously wanted Rodriguez to return. Rodriguez asked for a four-year deal similar to Lowell's. He said he didn't want more than the $10 million a year he got in January. He even offered to back-load the deal. But he certainly didn't think he deserved a pay cut. The Marlins wouldn't budge from their two-year offer in the $15 million to $16 million range. If Rodriguez is gone, they can use that money on relief pitching or maybe toward a long-term deal for shortstop Alex Gonzalez, who is eligible for arbitration. Yes, Rodriguez is 32, an age when catchers historically begin to break down. But there's a valid argument that the Marlins, while getting key contributions all season from throughout their roster, would not have won the World Series without Rodriguez. Can they defend it without him and first baseman Derrek Lee, the Nos. 3 and 4 hitters? That's a question to ponder on opening day when the World Series flag is raised over Pro Player Stadium, and Rodriguez isn't among the Marlins standing along the first-base line. My thoughts are similar here. I think this article is slanted towards a negative Loria bias (it amazes me that such sentiment can still linger), but there is some truth to it. Let me get to it: to me, it seems the Marlins never intended on re-signing Fudge, that they went through the motions because they had to and felt obligated to do so. Fudge, on the other hand, had no intentions of re-signing with the Marlins - thus the no arbitration clause in his contract last offseason. Why? I think the Marlins wanted to free up the money (budgeted at that point for Fudge) in order to land a bigger fish. Call me crazy, and you will, but I think we see this plan coming to fruition in the next week. Just a hunch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Another thing of interest...I've heard the REAL Pudge deal with deferrals was actually worth 8 million and not 10...so we were giving him the same money in the 3yr deal. (8MM per) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 I also don't believe they had any intention of re-signing Pudge, and I agree with Jonny's theory that it may have been to land a bigger Fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotcorner Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 yeah, i read the article when it came out. probably a lot of truth to it. i always had a nagging feeling the front office knew very well that Pudge wasn't going to accept their deal at that number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSwift25 Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 In a lot of ways that article makes sense, but I don't know if I'd go so far as to say we had a "bigger fish" lined up. We gave our best offer to Pudge, it wasn't enough to keep him, and the fact that Guerrero, Lopez, all those guys are out there makes it easier for us to say "OK Pudge, you just shot yourself in the foot." I don't think it was a situation where we were negotiating with Javy or Vlad behind Pudge's back. I do think something is going to happen with us getting a big name though, winter meetings are only a few days away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreshFish Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 I think they had the intention to sign Pudge, but at a reasonable price and not playing into Boras game. That's why they let Pudge talk to other clubs, before making a final push in the last 3 days. I'm sorry but 2 years @ 8 million per year, with a 3rd year option is not a slap in the face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuickGold Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Pudge has big eyes now, it's as simple as that. He wants lots of $$ cuz of his post-season performance. Although I'd love for him to stay a Marlin, I dont mind seeing the money being used now to land Vlad or Javy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreshFish Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 oh btw, I haven't seen anyone toping our offer yet. The Cubs seem out of the race for Pudge, so he may be due for a rude awakeing. He may may have another long offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSwift25 Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 oh btw, I haven't seen anyone toping our offer yet. The Cubs seem out of the race for Pudge, so he may be due for a rude awakeing. He may may have another long offseason. I haven't seen anyone make an offer. Insider says that the Tigers are interested in bringing in "name-value." or you know what else would be sweet, if he didn't have any offers and came crawling back to us in May. :shifty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beinfest4Prez Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 oh btw, I haven't seen anyone toping our offer yet. The Cubs seem out of the race for Pudge, so he may be due for a rude awakeing. He may may have another long offseason. I haven't seen anyone make an offer. Insider says that the Tigers are interested in bringing in "name-value." or you know what else would be sweet, if he didn't have any offers and came crawling back to us in May. :shifty No Thank you, by then we will have signed Lopez or seen Castro launch the ball a couple times in to biscayne bay. :thumbup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHands69 Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 If they don't get the stadium are they moving the team? It would make no sense to stay in Florida if they keep losing money each year unless they win the Championship each year which is a tough act to accomplish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Texan Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnylons Posted December 11, 2003 Author Share Posted December 11, 2003 Well, at least we all agree on something here - the Marlins were not being deadbeats. They are trying to improve their team but arent going to jeapordize the franchise's future to do so. Cant wait for Winter Meetings - I just hope Fudge isnt offered a deal anywhere near his $10M. I wonder if we didnt make it to the WS what his expectations would have been... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Texan Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 If Mr. Rodriguez is offered 10 million it wont really matter. But if we had offered him that money and he wasnt really Plan A... he may have accepted when this organization had other plans of grandeur. (sp) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnylons Posted December 11, 2003 Author Share Posted December 11, 2003 Exactly, that is why they lowballed him - to keep him away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geemoney Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Exactly, that is why they lowballed him - to keep him away. Low-balled him? Is this the same group that was saying that NO TEAM would offer him $10 mil a year? And now you're saying $8 mil is low-balling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Texan Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Its called posturing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaq-Man Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 they absolutely did not lowball him. $8 mil was more than sufficient. another recent article noted that a lot of the guys in the FO were "perplexed" as to how he could turn their offer down. i can believe that they were surprised by his decision. they didn't want to offer him more than he was worth, but there's no way you could call $8 mil lowballing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Texan Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Pudge and Boras are still living in a fantasy world if they think that Pudge is worth more than two years guaranteed and 8 million a year. Sure some organization might meet his demands..... But far too many organizations make stupid baseball decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Exactly, that is why they lowballed him - to keep him away. Low-balled him? Is this the same group that was saying that NO TEAM would offer him $10 mil a year? And now you're saying $8 mil is low-balling? We weren't low-balling him. It was a fair offer. But in the eyes of Pudge, he was being low-balled. I think that's what Jonny meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnylons Posted December 11, 2003 Author Share Posted December 11, 2003 Exactly, that is why they lowballed him - to keep him away. Low-balled him? Is this the same group that was saying that NO TEAM would offer him $10 mil a year? And now you're saying $8 mil is low-balling? We weren't low-balling him. It was a fair offer. But in the eyes of Pudge, he was being low-balled. I think that's what Jonny meant. Thanks, Wild Card. That is exactly what I needed to clarify. The FO knew PUdge's demands, but stayed resolute because they, unlike Boras and Fudge, are grounded in a little thing called 'reality'. That said, I think the Marlins have no choice but to 'feel surprised' that Fudge didnt take their offer. It would have made little sense to offer him a deal which was lower than what he was asking for if they (publicly) knew that it would be taken. This is simply a negotiating ploy, I feel, built around obligation. There was advantages to both sides in rejection - the FO gains more revenue to spend elsewhere while Fudge and Borass get to use this rejection as a testament to their determination that they wont settle for less than $10M. It is also a testament to their delusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Thanks, Wild Card. That is exactly what I needed to clarify. The FO knew PUdge's demands, but stayed resolute because they, unlike Boras and Fudge, are grounded in a little thing called 'reality'. That said, I think the Marlins have no choice but to 'feel surprised' that Fudge didnt take their offer. It would have made little sense to offer him a deal which was lower than what he was asking for if they (publicly) knew that it would be taken. This is simply a negotiating ploy, I feel, built around obligation. There was advantages to both sides in rejection - the FO gains more revenue to spend elsewhere while Fudge and Borass get to use this rejection as a testament to their determination that they wont settle for less than $10M. It is also a testament to their delusions. I agree completely. The Marlins never really had any intension to re-sign Ivan Rodriguez. They simply made an offer to make it seem to the general public (bandwagon) that they tried to make a fair push, within their price range, for Pudge. He didn't accept, just like they knew he wouldn't, and the Marlins new "we're not dismantling" image stays in-tact by making Boras and Rodriguez look like the bad guys (which they are). And to the people who have been asking "why wasn't plan B plan A," plan B has been plan A all along. They were hoping (or knew) Ivan was going to walk, so they could go after a Javy or Vlad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geemoney Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Exactly, that is why they lowballed him - to keep him away. Low-balled him? Is this the same group that was saying that NO TEAM would offer him $10 mil a year? And now you're saying $8 mil is low-balling? By "we", I didn't mean the Marlins F.O.....I meant the people on this board, claiming no one would sign I-Rod for what he demanded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rferry Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 If this is true the contract they were offering was on hell of a bluff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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