Posted December 11, 200321 yr Since a religious discussion almost broke out on the Marlins board, let's discuss God and religion and all related topics here. I will shed light on my views later. Have fun.
December 11, 200321 yr Sorry Texan! I was joking about Shamrock's post. Nevertheless I'll add to this one! :hat http://www.xanga.com/craigramblings _____________________________ GOD AND MEAT EATING: Meat rules. Here's my philosophical argument for eating meat 1. Man and animal are at the very least moral equals 2. Animals who are omnivores and can eat meat eat meat Therefore Man can eat meat 3. Eating animals cannot alter or ruin the good of society by eating them 4. Man killing other men ruins society and makes it immoral Therefore There is no equivalent moral implications when one eats meat 5. Animals have cognition like humans and feel pain, love, and sorrow 6. Man should not harm man because of man's cognitive ability and moral implications 7. Man's society is not ruined or harmed by eating meat Therefore Only if it was a sin and a God(s) punished meat eating would such an act be immoral and should not be allowable 8. Man is an omnivore 9. In order to preserve health, man must eat meat unless one goes through great efforts to find alternative foods 10. Such alternative foods were too hard for man to find many years ago, so at the very least eating meat was perfect moral and necessary for life then Therefore Only if moral implications change with change in condition can eating meat be immoral 11. Man can now not have to eat meat 12. Eating meat does bring about pain 13. This pain is irrelevant to the morality of the man's society 14. The only way it is immoral if it is sinful after life when man's society is irrelevant 15. Man is a created meat eater 16. God created man Therefore One could and should eat meat if... 17. God does not necessarily exist 18. Morality is still necessary in society 19. Eating meat does not change the morality in our society Therefore Eating meat is perfectly permissable I cannot conceive why one should not eat meat. 20. EAT MEAT NOW! _______________ Atheists Are Idiots Apparently who ever made this picture thought God is white, however that does not change the fact that atheists are stupid. My stupid brother on his website accused me of being atheist, or writing in favor of atheism. Well, no, I am against organized religion and I do not know the truth concerning God. That doesn't make me atheist stupid, that makes me an agnostic. Atheists make a very strong assumption, the assumption that God 100% does not exist. However, after analyzing all the different arguments concerning the existence of God, the evidence, and if not the evidence the logic cannot prove one side 100%, making the issue indiscernable. Another problem with atheism is that one would have to talk against the cosmological argument. However, those who do have to insist the universe is an inherently uncaused brute fact. I'm a history major, it has been ingrained in my brain that everything has a cause, and that nothing is inherently uncaused (besides an exception to the rule, like an inconceivable creator.) So when some philosopher wants to tell me that there is an infinite regress of events causing one another and that the universe itself is a brute fact, I find that inconceivable. Nothing in history, nothing we know of, nothing ever or is a brute fact. Not one thing. Everything has a reason for its being. Furthermore, nothing has never had a beginning. Nothing in history. I cannot conceive of something infinitely going back in time, only infinitely going forward in time, because time has already begun. For these reasons, I believe in the cosmological argument, which increases the chance of there being a God by a large amount. Though the cosmological argument can be explained by some sort of mathimatical formula, but however we can also attribute it God logically. We cannot unprove God, so one cannot be atheist. Being atheist requires an act of faith, because the evidence cannot back up the assertion that God 100% by no means can exist. Faith is a load of crap, so having faith in Christianity, Islam, or Hindusim is just as bad as having faith in atheism. I'm an agnostic, if an issue is cannot be intellectually decided, I reserve judgement. So here's a simple equation atheists can understand: atheism=stupidity Now many christians believe there is evidence that backs up their beliefs. Well, all of those prophecies and miracles are highly dubious, and anyone can read into anything in an improper matter for "proof." However, isn't Jesus the one who pretty much tells us that one is to have FAITH in him? That demands no evidence whatsoever, so you either right there are 1. not listening to Jesus, 2. admitting part of the bible is wrong, or 3. exhibiting what George Orwell called "doublethink", or the ability to believe 2 contradicting beliefs in order to hold onto another greater belief. So when those atheists say "oh, one can't have faith in something, that doesn't prove anything", they are ignoring that their belief requries faith. So there, they might be right, but because there is no evidence making their belief correct, they cannot justify it, therefore they should not have such a belief. _________________ How Can One Have Faith? Dictionary.com definition of faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence/the body of dogma in a religion dogma- A doctrinal notion asserted without regard to evidence or truth; an arbitrary dictum. Fine, you have faith and you accept dogmatic principles, but in your mind, how can this justify religion? If you say your "faith" justifies your religion, then how come you can just accept that? Faith by definition is an unjustified belief, so if your belief has no real standing, how can you accept it as true? Does it strike you as possible that maybe you cannot rely on faith? Faith doesn't prove anything, in fact, that is incorperated in the definition of faith! Faith therefore cannot be used to justify why you believe in your religion, whatever it is. Believing that Muhammed saw an angel requires an act of faith. Believing in the inconceivable holy trinity requires an act of faith. Believing that Jesus was more than mortal requires indeed an act of faith. All of these things require faith, but if faith by definition cannot prove anything, then how can you prove your beleifs are true by not proving anything? This would seem like a certain impossibility. Is there anything wrong with having faith? Faith has led many to lead great lives, and others to do quite the opposite. Nevertheless, isn't it our moral obligation as beings of reason and truth to have justification for our beliefs? This would mean if we were conflicted about the concept of God or if there is an afterlife, we would have to suspend judgement. By making a judgement, we make the erroneous assumption that we can conceive things that are by definition inconceivable. Name one of God's attributes. Whichever attribute it may be, it is infinite, correct? If an attribute is infinite in understanding, than it would be impossible for us to understand it. The notion of God is infinitely greater than us, making it impossible to understand such a notion. To understand God would take an act of faith as well, and this again means that your use of faith would not be justified to explain God. Faith is not justified, and unless you suggest God is in fact understandable, therefore finite/super human in nature but not beyond our conception, then God is not truly infinitely greater than us, and this notion many of us cannot accept either. So I ask, how can one have faith? You are entitled to have faith, but faith gives you an 1 out of an infinity chance of being correct, because faith being in its nature not justified, has no basis whatsoever besides possibly being randomly right. I cannot have faith, because of what I said previously. It is impossible to be right, and one commits a moral wrong by having faith, because it defies what makes us human, our reason. Now don't get me wrong. A God fearing person that has faith in something wrong who acts morally is better than an atheist or agnostic who commits moral wrongs. However, having faith in nothing is not intrinsic to morality. By suspending judgement and living a moral life, one acts as morally as one can. If we start making exceptions and start not using reason to dictate our decision making processes and thought, we mentally and socially retrogress. Personally, I believe something created the Universe though I do not pretend to know what it can possibly be, and some good arguments can be made to say that God can be attributed to why there is order in the universe, but none of these ideas can prove any theistic (Judea-Christian) attributes of the God the majority of us believe it. That requires faith, and so I ask, how can one have faith? ____________________ Soon to come: Why heaven as we know it is impossible and inconceivable.
December 11, 200321 yr My GOD!... Sorianofan, Would you please try summarizing that? :wacko : God exists as long as I believe in him. I do not need proof of any sort. I do not need any scientist to find Jesus DNA in order for me to believe in him. Many people ask themselves constantly if there is a GOD... Well unfortunately, if you have to ask yourself that, he does not exist for you. It is faith what makes the difference. Budhist or Christian or Jewish or Muslim have the same GOD, we just call him different names, whichever suits us better. The arguments about which religion is 'right' are pointless and will never come to a conclusion. There is no right or wrong in different religion's rules, because they are tied to the society in which one lives. Mormons believe that drinking coffee should be prohibited; that is their belief; no right or wrong there. Jewish believe that eating pork or working on Saturdays is sinful, Catholics believe that having sex before marriage is immoral, Muslims believe that one should pray many times a day, etc. It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. It is relative to the rules of your society. It doesn't matter what your beliefs are, as long as you follow the basic rules of ANY religion. Be a good person and treat others as you would like to be treated yourself... That is a universal rule and it applies to any religion. BTW God Bless You and Do not Forget... Jesus is the Reason for the Season! Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah! Happy Kwanzaa!
December 11, 200321 yr My GOD!... Sorianofan, Would you please try summarizing that? :wacko : God exists as long as I believe in him. I do not need proof of any sort. I do not need any scientist to find Jesus DNA in order for me to believe in him. Many people ask themselves constantly if there is a GOD... Well unfortunately, if you have to ask yourself that, he does not exist for you. It is faith what makes the difference. Budhist or Christian or Jewish or Muslim have the same GOD, we just call him different names, whichever suits us better. The arguments about which religion is 'right' are pointless and will never come to a conclusion. There is no right or wrong in different religion's rules, because they are tied to the society in which one lives. Mormons believe that drinking coffee should be prohibited; that is their belief; no right or wrong there. Jewish believe that eating pork or working on Saturdays is sinful, Catholics believe that having sex before marriage is immoral, Muslims believe that one should pray many times a day, etc. It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. It is relative to the rules of your society. It doesn't matter what your beliefs are, as long as you follow the basic rules of ANY religion. Be a good person and treat others as you would like to be treated yourself... That is a universal rule and it applies to any religion. BTW God Bless You and Do not Forget... Jesus is the Reason for the Season! Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah! Happy Kwanzaa! I threw everything I had out at once. Well, the less offending stuff! God exists as long as I believe in him. I do not need proof of any sort. I do not need any scientist to find Jesus DNA in order for me to believe in him. Many people ask themselves constantly if there is a GOD... Well unfortunately, if you have to ask yourself that, he does not exist for you. It is faith what makes the difference. Religion is entirely based on faith I agree. My main quarrel with self-proclaimed "religous" people is that they think that they are "right." If it is a matter of faith (That's what Jesus asks, and furthermore the whole garden of eden seems to justify dogma and reject requiring evidence), that is one thing, but faith doesn't make something empiracally correct. If you haven't noticed from reading the above, I do not believe in faith, I believe in logic and evidence. For that reason, I reject all organized religion, atheism, and pretty much admit I can truly never know if there is a God and its nature. Faith isn't a proof, so I mustn't make a decision concerning the matter. Its a question of ethics. Budhist or Christian or Jewish or Muslim have the same GOD, we just call him different names, whichever suits us better. I'm not sure if Buddhism answers the God question, I believe that it is more of a belief than actual religion. However, I'm no Buddhist so what do I no. Personally however, I do not believe in the theistic God, or the judeochristianmuslim God. God would have to be inconceivable, otherwise it would be finite and its attributes arbitrarily decided upon. If God isn't inconceivable, it cannot be the greatest possible being, and other than fear or hope for reward, what reason would there be to worship it? The arguments about which religion is 'right' are pointless and will never come to a conclusion. There is no right or wrong in different religion's rules, because they are tied to the society in which one lives. Mormons believe that drinking coffee should be prohibited; that is their belief; no right or wrong there. Jewish believe that eating pork or working on Saturdays is sinful, Catholics believe that having sex before marriage is immoral, Muslims believe that one should pray many times a day, etc. It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. It is relative to the rules of your society. You subscribe to William James and Pragmatic truth? That's what it sounds. He's a great philosopher, but I cannot agree with him. A matter of desire doesn't make a religion any more correct. So one can concede that doesn't matter- then why have faith in anything at all? What precedent does that set for how we choose our beliefs? That's why I concede I just don't know. It doesn't matter what your beliefs are, as long as you follow the basic rules of ANY religion. Be a good person and treat others as you would like to be treated yourself... That is a universal rule and it applies to any religion. BTW God Bless You and Do not Forget... Jesus is the Reason for the Season! Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah! Happy Kwanzaa! Exactly, I don't care what you are, right or wrong, just be moral. Morality is the ultimate goal, making everyone's life better. not to break balls: Jesus isn't the reason for the season, he was probably born in the spring. Christmas was the birthday of a Roman God! Furthermore Kwanza isn't religious!
December 11, 200321 yr Christianity is beautiful in its pure sense if you follow the teachings and life of Jesus, but a LARGE majority of supposed Christians just use the tag Christian for business, to socialize, or what have you. Add that to the fact that most Christians I know are Republicans of one form or another and it makes their religion seem all the more laughable. Jesus was a socialist and a pacifist at the least extreme, yet his supposed follower support killing all kinds of people, depriving people of basic necessities through greed, etc, etc. I do know a very few Christians though that have absolved themselves of worldly posessions like Jesus demands and teaches to help the not so fortunate of the earth and truly act "Christ-like." I myself am not a Christian, but find many of its principles (ones of Jesus at least, the god of the Old Testament is a horrible killer of humanity) appealing. For example, living a simple life, not letting posessions own you, and caring as much for your neighbor as you care for yourself. Does anyone find it ironic the President of our country, who claims to be a Christian, invokes the name of god in supprting our troops to kill other people? Basically the modern equivalent of the Crusades is on the horizon with Bush making it a "our god against there god." He actually is doing that indirectly right now. Scary stuff. Soriano is right when he says one cannot be atheistic without having that same "faith" they decry, so I'm also an agnostic. If a god is out there somewhere, he sure as hell is a mean son of a b***h.
December 11, 200321 yr I am Catholic. I believe in Jesus and just like Lcyberlina, I don't need any scientist to show me Jesus' DNA. I just know that Jesus is with me. I can feel Him...and believe me,I have. That is all for now.
December 11, 200321 yr I can only hope that you truly follow the teachings of Jesus and his life as this is a rarity among a huge majority of supposed Christians. If you drive a BMW how can you call yourself a follow of Christ with a straight face? (note: general statement, not specific to you pudgeelf)
December 11, 200321 yr Author here is a question. if you do not believe in any form of afterlife, then what is your quest in life? what do you seek to achieve?
December 11, 200321 yr I can only hope that you truly follow the teachings of Jesus and his life as this is a rarity among a huge majority of supposed Christians. If you drive a BMW how can you call yourself a follow of Christ with a straight face? (note: general statement, not specific to you pudgeelf) I agree with you. There's this guy in my youth group who says he's so religious yet he likes to get high from time to time. But nobody is perfect. We're all sinners. I believe that God forgives us, but that doesn't mean we can go off and take advantage of Him. I admit that I am not perfect, but we all make mistakes. You can get better and fix yourself up. It's never too late. That's what they teach us in my youth group.
December 11, 200321 yr The lack of an afterlife does present a tough question that I am struggling with at the moment. Why even do anything at all? Your accomplishments and gain will mean nothing once you die? Wrong. Man is immortal. No, I don't mean we live forever, but the things we do live forever...the impact of our lives has far reaching effects that we could not even begin to fathom. Maybe a story will help illustrate... One fine afternoon a prince of the Far East was riding on his horse on a mountain path. He was very pompous and neglectful of the people in his domain, but on this day his life would change forever. While riding he came upon a poor, dead peasant sprawled out in the middle of the path. The rotting corpse presented an appalling picture for the prince and brought his whole life into question. He got off his horse and went into the jungle and emerged only years later, except now he was no mere prince, but what we call the Buddha today. Because of the lowly peasant's gruesome appearance the haughty prince was changed forever and founded the great, peaceful religion of Buddha. I'm not sure I got all the details correct as I was going on memory from what I had read a few years back, but this is just a miniscule example of the effect our lives can have on others and our earth. For myself, I only aspire to improve the lot of my fellow man. So many needlessly live in abject pverty in Latin America, so a friend of mine in the fisheries Dept. at UF and I have formed an interesting scheme. With his knowledge of farming fish (more nourishing and self replenishing then agriculture) and mine of building we hope to sweep (Ecuador 1st) Latin America. Idealistic? Yes, but not impossible. Does this give my life meaning and purpose beyond material goods and superficial longings like beautiful women? Yes.
December 11, 200321 yr Author Jesus isn't the reason for the season, he was probably born in the spring. Christmas was the birthday of a Roman God! thats probably true, but the Christian Church(es) recognizes December 25 as the birth of the Messiah. furthermore it is because of the Christian celebration of Christmas that this day has become the worldwide event it is today. So to automatically brush aside the notion that Jesus is the reason for the season is somewhat flawed due to the great influences of the Christian faith on shaping the days we do and do not celebrate holidays.
December 11, 200321 yr I can only hope that you truly follow the teachings of Jesus and his life as this is a rarity among a huge majority of supposed Christians. If you drive a BMW how can you call yourself a follow of Christ with a straight face? (note: general statement, not specific to you pudgeelf) I agree with you. There's this guy in my youth group who says he's so religious yet he likes to get high from time to time. But nobody is perfect. We're all sinners. I believe that God forgives us, but that doesn't mean we can go off and take advantage of Him. I admit that I am not perfect, but we all make mistakes. You can get better and fix yourself up. It's never too late. That's what they teach us in my youth group. Please forgive me as I mean no offense, but you cannot truly know what you think you know until you leave the umbrella of your parents. I was of your same belief for a long time and it actually took 3 years of independent thinking to break its effect. Talk to me when you've been away from the parental units. Also isn't Christianity supposed to have more focus on a personal relationship with Jesus than a list of do's and dont's? At least thats what I get out of reading the Bible which I think is a tremendous book by the way.
December 11, 200321 yr Author Catholicism is an interesting religion. I will admit that. Is drinking inherently evil, if smoking and getting high is?
December 11, 200321 yr religion and the belief of god is a crutch for weak minds Whether or not you believe in God (and obviously you don't), that is one of the most utterly absurd statements I have ever heard.
December 11, 200321 yr Author religion and the belief of god is a crutch for weak minds so then only those that dont believe in religion or God have strong minds?
December 11, 200321 yr Please forgive me as I mean no offense, but you cannot truly know what you think you know until you leave the umbrella of your parents. I was of your same belief for a long time and it actually took 3 years of independent thinking to break its effect. Talk to me when you've been away from the parental units. Also isn't Christianity supposed to have more focus on a personal relationship with Jesus than a list of do's and dont's? At least thats what I get out of reading the Bible which I think is a tremendous book by the way. I don't know if I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that one day I will just forget my religion? If so, I am telling you now, I can't imagine myself that way. Say what you want, but you don't know me personally, so you can't really say, "Oh later on you're gonna think differently and other things." Now to answer your question... I ask you another question... Do you betray your best friend? At least I don't.
December 12, 200321 yr I am a Christian. I'm proud to say it. I go to church (I'm Southern Baptist), but that is not why I consider myself a Christian. This might come across as evangelistic, but that's how it is. I believe Jesus came to earth to die for our sins. He was perfect in every sense of the word, and died an unjust death (a painful death, but more painful because not only was he innocent of the crimes he was charged with, but he was innocent of any sin ever committed). Romans 3:23 says that everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I believe Romans 6:23 (I may be wrong on the verse) says that if you have committed just one sin your punishment is hell. Fortunately, John 3:16 goes on to say that God sent his one and only Son to die for our sins and that whoever believes in him will have everlasting life (heaven). I believe that if you believe in God, believe in Jesus, believe in the reason that Jesus came to earth, and that he died for our sins, and believe that you will go to heaven because of Jesus (all you must do is ask God to forgive you, and to repent). I like to think of the analogy of the scapegoat. Jesus was the scapegoat for our sins. He was innocent, but took the blame for all of our sins. All we have to do is accept his gift. I also believe (this is cause hate towards me) that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him. I believe, as it says in Ephesians, that one is not saved through works, but through faith. I am saved, and proud of it. I am by no means perfect, and I cannot say that I am better than anyone else, Christian or no. I know I need to try harder to be like Jesus, and to be a better Christian. But, I do know/believe that I am going to heaven when I die, because of what Jesus has done for me. That was kind of long, but that's what I believe. I get the feeling there aren't many Southern Baptists on this board, so my opinion probably will not be supported by many. P.S. I attended Catholic high school, and I feel like I have a strong grasp on the Catholic religion, and on many Catholics my age, and I think that Pudgefan should be commended for how she goes through life. I know of a lof of Catholics her age who are totally not religious in the least because of being forced into Catholicism by their parents, but Pudgefan seems to be serious about her religion, about God, and about Jesus, and I respect that a lot.
December 12, 200321 yr and yes, to me, Christianity is based on a personal relationship with God. Unfortunately, mine needs a lot of work. I'm gonna try to make it better. Thought I'd share that with yall.
December 12, 200321 yr If you drive a BMW how can you call yourself a follow of Christ with a straight face? Hummm... I do not drive a BMW, I have the oldest car on earth... I guess I can really consider myself a Christian! :unsure :
December 12, 200321 yr here is a question. if you do not believe in any form of afterlife, then what is your quest in life? what do you seek to achieve? I'll update my site after my final tommorrow, I will debunk the afterlife. Logically at least.
December 12, 200321 yr religion and the belief of god is a crutch for weak minds so then only those that dont believe in religion or God have strong minds? Did Thomas Aquinas have a great mind? Does Richard Swinburne have a great mind? Yes, and they believe in God. Are they right? Probably not, dogma and faith doesn't actually prove anything. You can't tell me that your faith proves your God exists. Because it is intellectually indiscernable, one should never pass judgment on the matter. To Christians: Oh yeah, how do you know Jesus is with you? Sounds like a ridiculous feeling if you ask me, but seriously exactly what do you mean?
December 12, 200321 yr Sorianofan ... but faith doesn't make something empiracally correct. That is the whole point. There is no correct or incorrect belief. It depends on your own perspective. I do not believe in faith, I believe in logic and evidence. For that reason, I reject all organized religion, atheism, and pretty much admit I can truly never know if there is a God and its nature. Faith isn't a proof, so I mustn't make a decision concerning the matter. Its a question of ethics. That is your decision. No one tells you you have to believe by force. It is your choice not to believe as it is my choice to belive... As I said, I do not need physical proof of God's existence. I know God exists because I feel he does. BTW, sorry to inform you but you are an atheist when you doubt the existence of God. God would have to be inconceivable, otherwise it would be finite and its attributes arbitrarily decided upon. If God isn't inconceivable, it cannot be the greatest possible being, and other than fear or hope for reward, what reason would there be to worship it? I do not know exactly what you mean by "inconceivable". Please explain. You subscribe to William James and Pragmatic truth? That's what it sounds I have no idea who that dude is. Everything I have said is my own personal, non-influenced perspective. A matter of desire doesn't make a religion any more correct No one is saying that. My religion may not be correct for you. I do not care if you do not like it or do not share my views about God; it only matters that I feel it is correct FOR ME. not to break balls: Jesus isn't the reason for the season, he was probably born in the spring. Christmas was the birthday of a Roman God! Furthermore Kwanza isn't religious! Das Texan explained this for me earlier. Who's birthday do you think we (meaning us christians) celebrate? Santa Clause? I said that statement, because many people (christians and some non-christians) go crazy around the CHRISTMAS season (the name says it all) buying presents and having parties, but they do not even care to remember that we would not have a CHRISTMAS if it was not for JESUS CHRIST. Thank you.
December 12, 200321 yr I am a Christian. I'm proud to say it. I go to church (I'm Southern Baptist), but that is not why I consider myself a Christian. This might come across as evangelistic, but that's how it is. I believe Jesus came to earth to die for our sins. He was perfect in every sense of the word, and died an unjust death (a painful death, but more painful because not only was he innocent of the crimes he was charged with, but he was innocent of any sin ever committed). Romans 3:23 says that everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I believe Romans 6:23 (I may be wrong on the verse) says that if you have committed just one sin your punishment is hell. Fortunately, John 3:16 goes on to say that God sent his one and only Son to die for our sins and that whoever believes in him will have everlasting life (heaven). I believe that if you believe in God, believe in Jesus, believe in the reason that Jesus came to earth, and that he died for our sins, and believe that you will go to heaven because of Jesus (all you must do is ask God to forgive you, and to repent). I like to think of the analogy of the scapegoat. Jesus was the scapegoat for our sins. He was innocent, but took the blame for all of our sins. All we have to do is accept his gift. I also believe (this is cause hate towards me) that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him. I believe, as it says in Ephesians, that one is not saved through works, but through faith. I am saved, and proud of it. I am by no means perfect, and I cannot say that I am better than anyone else, Christian or no. I know I need to try harder to be like Jesus, and to be a better Christian. But, I do know/believe that I am going to heaven when I die, because of what Jesus has done for me. That was kind of long, but that's what I believe. I get the feeling there aren't many Southern Baptists on this board, so my opinion probably will not be supported by many. P.S. I attended Catholic high school, and I feel like I have a strong grasp on the Catholic religion, and on many Catholics my age, and I think that Pudgefan should be commended for how she goes through life. I know of a lof of Catholics her age who are totally not religious in the least because of being forced into Catholicism by their parents, but Pudgefan seems to be serious about her religion, about God, and about Jesus, and I respect that a lot. This is what I dislike about religion, faith and dogma. You tell me Jesus died for my sins. Based on what? You present it as a fact, but there's no evidence for it. Your evidence is your faith, and faith being the lack of evidence, make it an absurd notion to convince anyone and oneself to believe in such a notion. How do you know Jesus felt the pain of all our sins combined? That's based on nothing, its ridiculous. Its awfully dogmatic. Furthermore, most of these beliefs based on nothing. I can tell you that Osiris and Tlaloc died for your sins and created the Earth. You then would ask me "based on what?" I'll reply, "I have faith that they did." Then why don't we just make up a bunch of untrue stories and just say they're true? That's why organized religion is a crock. Anything that is based on faith and dogma is arbitrary. I could just make anything up if it has no evidence to back it. You don't need Jesus' DNA to prove that Jesus is real? No, there's records for that. Do you need more evidence to prove he is a man-god, part of the holy trinity, died for our sins, or whatever. Why don't I just make up that Jesus invented the motor boat? There's no evidence for that either. Now making just anything up sounds ridiculous. Anything that makes ANY ASSUMPTION about God based on no evidence is ridiculous. Furthermore, if we become a society that does not base our beliefs on evidence, we can go down a very bad path, basing our beliefs on lines, and we can be misled my demogogues(sp?) and become brutes. A brutish belief system would lack the need for evidence for every belief. Good example? The Nazi state religion taught to the Hitler youth. Belief through faith and dogma can have horrible consequences. If everyone is logical and needs evidence for their beliefs, we would live in a better world. So join the good team, the agnostics :thumbup
December 12, 200321 yr That is the whole point. There is no correct or incorrect belief. It depends on your own perspective. If you agree with William James, yes. I don't agree with him, I agree with Clifford. I don't see your belief as wrong or right- I see it as based on nothing, like the ancient greeks or egyptions. That's why I just don't decide. There's a real answer, but its better to admit you don't no then make something up-that's dishonest. That is your decision. No one tells you you have to believe by force. It is your choice not to believe as it is my choice to belive... As I said, I do not need physical proof of God's existence. I know God exists because I feel he does. BTW, sorry to inform you but you are an atheist when you doubt the existence of God. People are entitled to believe in things I don't like, but does it make such beliefs right? People believe immigration is bad, yet they have no basis for such a belief most of the time. If one has no basis for belief, I assert one is not right to have that belief. Their is no basis for a belief in the theistic God in my opinion, its intellectually indiscernable. More soon... I'll answer your other questions. P.S. I understand this is a touchy subject, so mlet's not have hard feelings