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The God Thread


Das Texan

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-your belief can very well be a lie

But then again, it can be true, and to me it is.

 

many parts of your beliefs are illogical and contradictory to one another

Elaborate... Which religion, which parts and why.

 

many of your beliefs are immoral

Is that a statement or a question??? Who says you have the authority to deem what is right and what is wrong... Wait a minute, that is a religious belief!

 

I can Say that

No problem. I respect your opinion. I do not get agitated about this. I know that whatever I say may not change your opinion... I do not intend to make you believe or not in anything. This is a free country and one Nation "UNDER GOD" ;)

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Thank you hotcorner. This is all in the spirit of debate, and if someone truly believes in what they think, they are more than welcome to try to debunk my arguments.

 

 

Who says your religion...if you have one....is truth?? We don't know. That's why it's a BELIEF.

I'm agnostic, I admit I don't know the truth. and once one admits they really don't know the answer to "the question" that's as truthful one can be. Evidence and logic are on the side in my opinion. Of course if you are Swinburn, you would disagree with me! However, anything that requires blind faith openly acknowledges the fact that they have the "real answer." So one should admit they don't have the real answer instead of choosing belief based on nothing in an arbitrary matter. Look, what I did not like was your comment about joining the "good guys".

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Another contradiction:

No matter what I say to you, you will always go back to the "I need proof" debate. I said, that my proof that God exists will never make sense to you because of that fact.

 

Yet:

 

God gave us all the tools to be happy. Whether we properly use them is another story.

So if you cannot prove god gave us tools (it could of made bacteria and evolution did the rest), then how do you believe what you just said? Arbitrarily? Without logic?

 

Our minds perceive logical manners. Beliefs must be based on logic. If a belief is illogical, then it cannot be correct. God is not illogical, but the God many choose to believe in with arbitrary attributes is.Sorianofan... What the hell are you talking about??? Bacteria, evolution??? You have just proved my point. I rest my case!

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-your belief can very well be a lie

But then again, it can be true, and to me it is.

 

many parts of your beliefs are illogical and contradictory to one another

Elaborate... Which religion, which parts and why.

 

many of your beliefs are immoral

Is that a statement or a question??? Who says you have the authority to deem what is right and what is wrong... Wait a minute, that is a religious belief!

 

I can Say that

No problem. I respect your opinion. I do not get agitated about this. I know that whatever I say may not change your opinion... I do not intend to make you believe or not in anything. This is a free country and one Nation "UNDER GOD" ;)

Last post of the night! I gotta sleep.

 

-your belief can very well be a lie

But then again, it can be true, and to me it is.

Yes, but without evidence and such a belief chosen arbitrarily has an one out of infinity chance of being true (no exaggeration.)

 

 

many parts of your beliefs are illogical and contradictory to one another

Elaborate... Which religion, which parts and why.

All religions, they are inconsistent. One cannot name one consistent religion.

 

many of your beliefs are immoral

Is that a statement or a question??? Who says you have the authority to deem what is right and what is wrong... Wait a minute, that is a religious belief!

I'm not what you would call "religious" but I am a highly moral person. Morals are outside of religion though religion contains morals. Morality is the belief one should act in a fashion to benefit the entire human race- that's outside of religion. If I see certain methods of beliefs as oppsoed to the greater good of humanity, I see them as immoral.

 

I can Say that

No problem. I respect your opinion. I do not get agitated about this. I know that whatever I say may not change your opinion... I do not intend to make you believe or not in anything. This is a free country and one Nation "UNDER GOD" ;)

I'm not agitated either, I like discussing this, though I'm sure I'm agitating other people, which is not intent (agitation.)

 

Personally, people have to shut up about that "under god" stuff. If you think it is a lie, then just laugh to yourself. The pledge says "liberty and justice for all." Should we just get rid of the pledge? I'm on your side with that one.

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Ok folks, I think this thread has exhausted just about every argument from every angle and is now becoming repetitive, and not to mention I have made all my points, so i'm done with it. One thing I know we can ALL agree on is whatever you believe or don't believe is your choice based upon your faith in whatever you do or don't believe.

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Ah, but the word faith is not confined to religion!

 

You can (and most do!) have....

 

Faith in your family.

Faith in your common man.

Faith in your friends.

Faith in yourself.

Faith in your county.

Faith in humanity.

 

And the bonus is that these aren't "blind" faiths. They're actually based on experience and reason and history and people you've met and spoke with and can judge for yourself. They may be misplaced at times, but nevertheless...

 

While the other kind is basically faith based on faith.

 

I'd agree with you that faith in nothing would be a pretty miserable existance.

I can't argue with any of this, but this is "The God Thread" therefore, none of the faiths you mention are faiths i'm talking about. In this case I am confining the word faith to religion based upon the thread title, but you are correct in that Faith is definitely not just religion, which in part is why I throw the word around so loosely.

 

Ok, NOW i'm done with this thread, just wanted to respond to this because Hot Corner brought up some good points.

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Believe it or not until I was 18 I did not truly believe in God. I am going to make the story short. Once I became a believer it's like a whole another world. It truly opens your eyes. The only way I can compare it is to the movie the Matrix. It's as if I am finally unplugged.

 

I understand why so many of you here on this board don't believe in God. It's hard to believe something that you arent able to see but if you could just go out to a church service or two it could really open your eyes to a whole different world.

 

My mother was supposed to die yet her doctor brought her to God. She had all these problems with her body. She had multiple surgeries and it looked very bleak for her. Yet one day all of a sudden after much prayer by the church my mom was healed. All of a sudden she had no problems what so ever. Doctors were amazed from going to possibly dying to being healthy. You aren't going to read these kind of things in the newspaper but these miracles happen everyday with the help of God.

 

 

My family has been touched by God. My mother has been fighting terrible pains since her surgery a while back and just recently at a Church service was healed. Her doctors told her she would have to deal with the pain as they did give here some medicine of some sort but it did't prove to be very useful. I can say now that she is living a life pain free.

 

A lot of you may read this and say it's a bunch of BS because I have been there. I know that way of thinking. My dad thinks the same way. Once again if you could just attend one church service it may open your eyes.

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my belief is based on the Bible being truth, therefore I will take what Jesus said (the Gospels) to be true. My faith is based on the Bible, which I believe is God's Word.

 

You can say what I believe in is ridiculous, but that is ok. I believe what I believe, and I believe that the Bible is truth. You choose to believe Osiris if you want, or believe in no one. I believe that Jesus is my personal Savior and can be your's too.

 

You can call it ridiculous, blind faith, Bible-thumping, whatever. It won't change how I feel, and I will NEVER join the "good guys" and turn agnostic.

Amen

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I'll just say this. Sorianofan, I may not be able to prove the Bible right, but you can't prove it wrong. And furthermore, if I could prove it right, then it wouldn't be much of a faith huh?

 

And as for miracles...yes I believe it was the "unlikely" scenario as opposed to the everyday scenario that you think happened. Once again, it wouldn't be much of a belief if I believed in something that was so easy to believe.

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One more thing a lot of you on this board may wonder why there are so many religions out there in todays world? I found myself asking the same question. Well the devil did this to make it harder for us to be saved. He made it into a maze.

How do you know that? Maybe God is a dick and it likes damning us. That's jsut as possible. Maybe we just cannot no, or maybe a lot of people make up a lot of fake religions.

 

My mother was supposed to die yet her doctor brought her to God. She had all these problems with her body. She had multiple surgeries and it looked very bleak for her. Yet one day all of a sudden after much prayer by the church my mom was healed. All of a sudden she had no problems what so ever. Doctors were amazed from going to possibly dying to being healthy. You aren't going to read these kind of things in the newspaper but these miracles happen everyday with the help of God.

 

I had miracles happen to me as well. Car accident, brain damage, probably other stuff...

 

However, how do you know its God? A recent study had people of a bunch of different religions pray for the terminally ill without them noing. There was no difference in survival rate betwwn the ones they prayed for and the ones they didn't. So you reply: God cannot be meassured. So is God so spiteful, that it would deprive people of life? What God do you believe in then?

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I'll just say this. Sorianofan, I may not be able to prove the Bible right, but you can't prove it wrong. And furthermore, if I could prove it right, then it wouldn't be much of a faith huh?

 

And as for miracles...yes I believe it was the "unlikely" scenario as opposed to the everyday scenario that you think happened. Once again, it wouldn't be much of a belief if I believed in something that was so easy to believe.

I'm opposed to faith, faith is a belief with no evidence. People had faith in Zeus too.

 

And I believe it was the far more likely scenerio you are speaking of, it was made up. The possibility that the bible is 100% from God is possible, but it is also possible the devil rays will win the world series next year- the possibility isn't so good.

 

 

 

Let me clarify something. I have nothing against religious people. Most people who don't adopt religion use it to justfiy them doing immoral deeds. Morality is the ultimated goal for a creature of reason such as man. If people need religion to be moral, then the end justifies the means. However, if someone realized morality is apart from certain beliefs, if one attains certain beliefs in an immoral manner, that is immoral, and one should then be fully moral. That's my belief.

 

There's no way I can ever talk people out of such carefully ingrained dogmatic beliefs, because there's an absence of logic. However, I'm more than happy to debate anything, in the spirit of debate.

 

I think someone said it earlier- just be moral.

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Dear Sorianofan,

 

I am not going to argue with you about God?s existence anymore. The whole point of this thread is not to ?make? anybody believe in anything. This was a thread for all of us to express our views about God.

 

I do not need to or have the urge of explaining his existence, because I do not intend to prove something that is beyond me. It is enough that I believe; my task in life is not turning you into a Catholic. My quest is to be a good Catholic or for that matter a good person myself. By being a good person, I will do good onto others and God?s love will spread to them, even if they do not believe. They will be touched by God without even knowing it.

 

You will probably go on with your life, discrediting and disbelieving everything and everybody. I really feel sorry for you. A life without faith or the idea of hope is a very sad and lonely existence. Someone who believes in God is never alone. Someone who has faith in him will always find hope in the darkest moments of their lives.

 

I really hope you find the answers you are looking for. I hope you find God someday or that he touches you without even knowing it?

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my beef with religion are the jackasses that try to convert others

I don't hold it against people who hold beliefs strongly. If I think I'm right, I would love for people to agree with me. With a question so important like religion, if one has strong convictions I see no problem with them trying to influence others.

 

Of course when a belief is not true, it should not be spread. no. you don't have a right to try to enforce your beliefs on others.

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I'm not going to even bother with this thread. ppl have different views of it and im not going to waste time arguing. Religion is one thing that shouldn't be discussed on an open forum unless its about a specific religion.

 

I'm Christian/ Catholic so that should explain my views on this thread.

Only in title. You act nothing like a Christian. (Christ follower)

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interesting views from many people so far.

 

 

i must say i am thrilled that this topic has done what it has so far, i knew it would either explode or be a bust.

 

 

i think we do need to keep in mind that we shouldnt knock other people's religions or try to convert others. this thread is simply a forum to share your ideas and views with others on this very personal and often sensitive subject.

 

 

healthy debate is nice, mindless bantering is not.

 

 

 

that being said......

 

 

there are many things we cant prove in this world yet choose to believe. just because you cant prove the existence of God via hard scientific evidence does not mean God does not exist.

 

faith is an intersting thing....faith like belief cannot be quantified. it is something deeply personal and deeply emotional often.

 

Let me include a couple of quotes in regards to faith....

 

Scientists were rated as great heretics by the church, but they were truly religious men because of their faith in the orderliness of the universe.

--Albert Einstein

 

Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Minister, Civil Rights Leader

 

Optimism is the faith that leads to achievement. Nothing can be done without hope or confidence.

--Helen Keller

 

 

In each of the cases of these people faith was required to achieve. Faith is not some empty idea, subscribed to by only the weak minded. Faith is something that digs down much deeper. Faith was needed in the case of any human movement to move forward. The Civil Rights movement comes to mind first and foremost. Without the deep faith Dr. King possessed, would Civil Rights be where it is today or would we still be stuck in the era of Jim Crow?

 

To say that you only believe something because you have evidence shows a doubting mind. Thomas doubted, he did not believe that Jesus had risen and appeared to the apostles. This is an old biblical story repeated every year. Blessed be those that have not seen, for they shall enter the gates of heaven. (or something like that, quoting biblical passages simply is not my thing)

 

 

Perhaps I shall present more later......

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I dig the Eintstein quote.

 

there are many things we cant prove in this world yet choose to believe. just because you cant prove the existence of God via hard scientific evidence does not mean God does not exist.

 

I'm not trying to disprove a god exists, which Sorianofan has said is impossible (i agree), but the fact that hes a personal god is false. If anything god is indifferent to what he created.

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I'm not trying to disprove a god exists, which Sorianofan has said is impossible (i agree), but the fact that hes a personal god is false. If anything god is indifferent to what he created.

Yes, too many contradictions exist between what is real and what others conceive God is.

 

The real question is, in my opinion, whether the concept of God is conceivable in its own right. Is the idea of God being infinitely above us make it entirely inconceivable and not worth discussion, or is the idea that we assume that God is infinitely above us not too brash of an assumption? This wrestles with my mind, and I have not yet come to a conclusion.

 

One cannot prove God doesn't exist or t does 100% exist. If one has faith, they have to admit that their belief is a POSSIBILITY, but the possibility unsubstantiated by evidence is not very great. All great theists (religious philosophers) concede to this and many here are not. People think faith=fact. Faith is deciding to blieve in a logical possibility.

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Dear Sorianofan,

 

I am not going to argue with you about God?s existence anymore. The whole point of this thread is not to ?make? anybody believe in anything. This was a thread for all of us to express our views about God.

 

I do not need to or have the urge of explaining his existence, because I do not intend to prove something that is beyond me. It is enough that I believe; my task in life is not turning you into a Catholic. My quest is to be a good Catholic or for that matter a good person myself. By being a good person, I will do good onto others and God?s love will spread to them, even if they do not believe. They will be touched by God without even knowing it.

 

You will probably go on with your life, discrediting and disbelieving everything and everybody. I really feel sorry for you. A life without faith or the idea of hope is a very sad and lonely existence. Someone who believes in God is never alone. Someone who has faith in him will always find hope in the darkest moments of their lives.

 

I really hope you find the answers you are looking for. I hope you find God someday or that he touches you without even knowing it?

Dear lcyberlina,

 

I'm not saying God does or does not exist- I don't know. No one can no for sure. If one can, this issue would not be discussable, we would have a definitive answer. I understand it appears that I am "pushing my beliefs." I'm pushing my beliefs no more so than someone who says "there is a higher being" or "the bible is true." I'm expressing my beliefs, and part of my beliefs is the idea that other beliefs are immoral, so in order to explain my beliefs honestly, I have to speak that way.

 

Your quest i life is to be a good catholic, and my quest is to be a moral person. Immoral methods of acquirining beliefs are opposed to the moral life I believe one should live. My yearning is that all of humanity be as moral as possible.

 

How has God not touched me? If it created the universe, I am part of the product it has created. Do I discredit everything? No, I wouldn't be agnostic, I would be an atheist, which I believe misuse their faith for nothingness and immorality. Why do you feel sorry for me? I'm not so quick to believe something that has a slight possibility of being true?

 

Let me give you an example. The real God gave us reason, and it sent Jesus, and all of its true followers would gain the favor of God. However, God knows that those with good intentions of all faiths or beliefs are just as good people, and it rewards them as well.

 

Who's to say that's not the real God? Then surely, my beliefs would gain its favor. If God was strictly what Jesus says and I have no faith in it, then I do not gain its favor. What if God is a prankster and punished people with faith? Its possible! I don't know what God is or what it can be, and logically I bleieve the Gods people conceive of are illogical, so I'm honest and admit I don't know.

 

What's wrong with honesty? What's wrong with not knowing what God is, or if it is real? At least I stuggle with the question of God (like Israel stuggled with the Angel.) I try to know what seems to be closest to the truth: that you cannot know it.

 

 

I really hope I did not alienate anybody here. I'm not going to hold anyones beliefs against them on other threads, I hope the same is returned t o me.

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Dear lcyberlina,

 

I'm not saying God does or does not exist- I don't know. No one can no for sure. If one can, this issue would not be discussable, we would have a definitive answer. I understand it appears that I am "pushing my beliefs." I'm pushing my beliefs no more so than someone who says "there is a higher being" or "the bible is true." I'm expressing my beliefs, and part of my beliefs is the idea that other beliefs are immoral, so in order to explain my beliefs honestly, I have to speak that way.

 

Your quest i life is to be a good catholic, and my quest is to be a moral person. Immoral methods of acquirining beliefs are opposed to the moral life I believe one should live. My yearning is that all of humanity be as moral as possible.

 

How has God not touched me? If it created the universe, I am part of the product it has created. Do I discredit everything? No, I wouldn't be agnostic, I would be an atheist, which I believe misuse their faith for nothingness and immorality. Why do you feel sorry for me? I'm not so quick to believe something that has a slight possibility of being true?

 

Let me give you an example. The real God gave us reason, and it sent Jesus, and all of its true followers would gain the favor of God. However, God knows that those with good intentions of all faiths or beliefs are just as good people, and it rewards them as well.

 

Who's to say that's not the real God? Then surely, my beliefs would gain its favor. If God was strictly what Jesus says and I have no faith in it, then I do not gain its favor. What if God is a prankster and punished people with faith? Its possible! I don't know what God is or what it can be, and logically I bleieve the Gods people conceive of are illogical, so I'm honest and admit I don't know.

 

What's wrong with honesty? What's wrong with not knowing what God is, or if it is real? At least I stuggle with the question of God (like Israel stuggled with the Angel.) I try to know what seems to be closest to the truth: that you cannot know it.

 

 

I really hope I did not alienate anybody here. I'm not going to hold anyones beliefs against them on other threads, I hope the same is returned t o me.

My quest in life is to be a good person by following the guidelines given to me by Jesus through Catholicism. I do not think any of my believes are immoral. Who is to say what is moral and what is not? Ask yourself that question, who in the first place told you what was supposed to be right or wrong?

 

Of course there is nothing wrong with honesty. You may think or say anything you want as long as you do not insult or belittle anyone here. I do not think that you have done any of that.

 

Do not worry... I understand your point of view, even though I do not share it.

I knew this discussion would open a whole other can of worms, but it is all relative to people's maturity and level of understanding.

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