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Notes from Jeter's town hall meeting


SilverBullet
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I'm going to think positively. The comment that the team won't be competitive for another 18-19 years is crazy. 

 

I'm hoping that the reason Jeter trusts Hill is because they've had some discussions and he now knows that Hill was handcuffed and that Loria was forcing the moves. That comment from Hill plays to that, without completely throwing Loria under the bus.

 

I'm pretty sure Jeter has enough baseball sense to see the moves "Hill" has made and wouldn't keep him if he really was that terrible.

 

 

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Why do you think they will be competitive by 2020 ? What have they done so far to make you think that anything is better than it was under Loria ? Actually, what I see it might be worse.

 

I strongly disagree with this. It's only been a brief time but at least so far Jeter has worked on one thing and that's restocking the minor leagues. Loria never really did that outside of a few (just a few) good picks in the draft (namely Jose and Yelich). Even if you don't like HOW he's doing it, Jeter is building towards the future more than the previous ownership did.

 

Please tell me how is that worse than what Loria did?

 

And yes 2020 is a reasonable goal (from our viewpoint in December of 2017) because if they get enough good talents trying to grow and mature together, in 3 years they should have a very solid talent base to build the MLB team around.

 

One could argue that's what did happen with the 2012 "fire sale" but that the execution wasn't right at the end. The team that lost 100 games in 2013 had enough position player talent that by 2016 and 17 they were a heck of a lineup pretty much ready to compete. The flaw of course is the lack of pitching (exasperated by Jose's mistakes) but the maturiation of that group of players beginning in 2013 did come to fruition 3-4 years later. It's NOT a crazy idea to think 2020 is a reasonable target. 

 

 

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I'm hoping that the reason Jeter trusts Hill is because they've had some discussions and he now knows that Hill was handcuffed and that Loria was forcing the moves. That comment from Hill plays to that, without completely throwing Loria under the bus.

 

Yep. This will take a lot more time to prove but it kinda gets more likely by the day. 

 

 

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I mean, if I can sit on my couch and scratch my head at the moves, I'm thinking actual baseball people can see it as well and if he really was as bad as it appears he would not keep him around. 

 

He had no problem getting rid of Perez, Conine, Etc....  I know that's not quite the same but I really think he likes what he's heard from Mike Hill.

 

 

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I strongly disagree with this. It's only been a brief time but at least so far Jeter has worked on one thing and that's restocking the minor leagues. Loria never really did that outside of a few (just a few) good picks in the draft (namely Jose and Yelich). Even if you don't like HOW he's doing it, Jeter is building towards the future more than the previous ownership did.

 

Please tell me how is that worse than what Loria did?

 

And yes 2020 is a reasonable goal (from our viewpoint in December of 2017) because if they get enough good talents trying to grow and mature together, in 3 years they should have a very solid talent base to build the MLB team around.

 

One could argue that's what did happen with the 2012 "fire sale" but that the execution wasn't right at the end. The team that lost 100 games in 2013 had enough position player talent that by 2016 and 17 they were a heck of a lineup pretty much ready to compete. The flaw of course is the lack of pitching (exasperated by Jose's mistakes) but the maturiation of that group of players beginning in 2013 did come to fruition 3-4 years later. It's NOT a crazy idea to think 2020 is a reasonable target. 

 

Because they still have the main culprit who made most of this mess we have now, still in their employ and making decisions on trades.....and the draft will be coming up. How's he done with that in the past ? Maybe if he would have hit on 2 or 3 guys in each of the past 5 drafts we'd be in better shape....but he didn't and don't lay bad drafting on Loria's lap....Loria didn't care about the draft outside of the 1st and maybe some of the 2nd round picks, because the bonus money is not that great. That was ALL Mike Hill

 

 

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Because they still have the main culprit who made most of this mess we have now, still in their employ and making decisions on trades.....and the draft will be coming up. How's he done with that in the past ? Maybe if he would have hit on 2 or 3 guys in each of the past 5 drafts we'd be in better shape....but he didn't and don't lay bad drafting on Loria's lap....Loria didn't care about the draft outside of the 1st and maybe some of the 2nd round picks, because the bonus money is not that great. That was ALL Mike Hill

 

I'm all for ripping on Mike Hill but everything around him has changed and Loria was obviously a huge influence in the previous regime's decisions. It's not out of the question that Mike Hill + Derek Jeter + Gary Denbo + Dan Greenlee + others can lead to better decisions than Mike Hill + Jeffrey Loria + David Samson + Dan Jennings. Granted we have to wait for the results down the line but I still don't think what they're doing now is worse than what they were doing before.

 

 

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I'm all for ripping on Mike Hill but everything around him has changed and Loria was obviously a huge influence in the previous regime's decisions. It's not out of the question that Mike Hill + Derek Jeter + Gary Denbo + Dan Greenlee + others can lead to better decisions than Mike Hill + Jeffrey Loria + David Samson + Dan Jennings. Granted we have to wait for the results down the line but I still don't think what they're doing now is worse than what they were doing before.

 

this is another reason i think they deserve time to let this plan play out.  I think Loria had a much bigger impact on recent baseball decisions than people realize.  Especially given that it now seems flatly obvious that he knew from the second he got that stadium deal that he would sell the team as soon as the penalty expired.

 

 

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Loria most likely didn't have intricate knowledge of prospects in the Marlins system and certainly not other team's systems. I suspect that Loria would have been forcing Hill's hand in making major free agent signings (Chen, Volquez), but I doubt Loria was saying "I want Dan Straily. Offer up Castillo)." I doubt Loria was demanding that the the Marlins draft so many "project" power arms in the draft.

 

Loria unquestionably meddled, but I think that Hill had more influence than some people are willing to admit. The Ozuna trade is exactly the same type of trade that would have gone down under the old ownership.

 

 

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I'm all for ripping on Mike Hill but everything around him has changed and Loria was obviously a huge influence in the previous regime's decisions. It's not out of the question that Mike Hill + Derek Jeter + Gary Denbo + Dan Greenlee + others can lead to better decisions than Mike Hill + Jeffrey Loria + David Samson + Dan Jennings. Granted we have to wait for the results down the line but I still don't think what they're doing now is worse than what they were doing before.

 

They can't do WORSE, but they have to do better....or more misery for the Marlins.

 

 

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I'm going to think positively. The comment that the team won't be competitive for another 18-19 years is crazy. 

 

I'm hoping that the reason Jeter trusts Hill is because they've had some discussions and he now knows that Hill was handcuffed and that Loria was forcing the moves. That comment from Hill plays to that, without completely throwing Loria under the bus.

 

I'm pretty sure Jeter has enough baseball sense to see the moves "Hill" has made and wouldn't keep him if he really was that terrible.

 

That's not what I said and if you got that impression I apologize. We already are in year 14/15, and I do believe it's going to be at least 4 to 5 years til we are even at 75-80 wins....so that is where I got the 18 to 19 years

 

 

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I strongly disagree with this. It's only been a brief time but at least so far Jeter has worked on one thing and that's restocking the minor leagues. Loria never really did that outside of a few (just a few) good picks in the draft (namely Jose and Yelich). Even if you don't like HOW he's doing it, Jeter is building towards the future more than the previous ownership did.

 

Please tell me how is that worse than what Loria did?

 

And yes 2020 is a reasonable goal (from our viewpoint in December of 2017) because if they get enough good talents trying to grow and mature together, in 3 years they should have a very solid talent base to build the MLB team around.

 

One could argue that's what did happen with the 2012 "fire sale" but that the execution wasn't right at the end. The team that lost 100 games in 2013 had enough position player talent that by 2016 and 17 they were a heck of a lineup pretty much ready to compete. The flaw of course is the lack of pitching (exasperated by Jose's mistakes) but the maturiation of that group of players beginning in 2013 did come to fruition 3-4 years later. It's NOT a crazy idea to think 2020 is a reasonable target. 

 

Because unlike 1998, they've gotten almost ZERO top level prospect back in the trades they've made so far. Now they are nearly out of assets that can bring back MLB prospect talent. That will necessitate hitting on 4 to 5 players in each draft, in order to have assets to keep trading. Right now their bank account is nearly out of funds. 

 

Expecting Hill to become a super drafting genius all of a sudden is a big gamble in my opinion. And if we have him around too long, it's just going to add those years onto the misery......they can't afford it.

 

 

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Right. And now they have Denbo who hopefully will change that. 

 

Hill drafted Yelich though, didn't he?

 

I'm not sure......Yelich may have been in Beinfests last draft. But kudo's to Hill if he did.....he also may have drafted Realmuto, but outside of those two, has he possibly had anything else of note ? And they draft like....40 kids a year...right ? 

 

 

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The Ozuna trade is exactly the same type of trade that would have gone down under the old ownership.

 

 

 

 

 

BINGO ! This is why I think it may be a lot longer than many want to admit it will take. Because Jeter will have to give him at least 3 years to see what he does, before throwing him out the door with a buttkick. 

 

I think Jeter has made a funementally bad mistake in judgement in keeping Hill. Unfortunately only time will tell.

 

 

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  • 2 hours ago, Exasperated said:
     

I'm not sure......Yelich may have been in Beinfests last draft. But kudo's to Hill if he did.....he also may have drafted Realmuto, but outside of those two, has he possibly had anything else of note ? And they draft like....40 kids a year...right ? 

Admin Beinfest left September 2013

 

His last draft  was for Colin Moran a bust, he however drafted Stanton , Yelich,  Jose Fernandez, JT Realmulto, Adam Conley, AJ Ramos Nick Wittgren, Drew Steckenrider, JT Riddle, Andrew Heaney and don't forget he also signed Marcell Ozuna

 

Although he was already gone  a couple of months later The Marlins selected Bour in the Rule 5 draft  I would absolutely give him a lot of credit in it

 

Jennings  did trade for Dee Gordon

 

However Mike Hill's track record has been  God awful in every way

 

 

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Admin Beinfest left September 2013

 

His last draft  was for Colin Moran a bust, he however drafted Stanton , Yelich,  Jose Fernandez, JT Realmulto, Adam Conley, AJ Ramos Nick Wittgren, Drew Steckenrider, JT Riddle, Andrew Heaney and don't forget he also signed Marcell Ozuna

 

Although he was already gone  a couple of months later The Marlins selected Bour in the Rule 5 draft  I would absolutely give him a lot of credit in it

 

Jennings  did trade for Dee Gordon

 

However Mike Hill's track record has been  God awful in every way

 

I would assume Beinfest signed Urena also?

 

 

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Hill was assistant GM alongside Beinfest. He easily could have been influential in all the successes that we wanna attribute to Beinfest. 

 

That wasn't his role in the Organization under Beinfest, if anything it may have been Dan Jennings he was the one more involved in Scouting and Player Development

 

When it comes to Hill, he worked closely in the past with former President of Baseball Operations Admin Beinfest, focusing on roster management, payroll and contract research and negotiation, and waiver and rule compliance.

 

 

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Assigning blame and credit for certain players and certain periods of success is pretty difficult for any club, especially the Marlins when you have a former owner that I think we can all agree had meddlesome tendencies and ulterior motives.  Prior to 2002 there is a pretty clear picture.  Aside from the ownership mandate to reduce payroll in the winter of 97 it seems pretty apparent that Dombrowksi steered the ship.  Once Loria stepped into Henry’s shoes that is when things get a little murkey.  The groundwork Dombrowksi laid really carried the middle part of the 00s.  John Henry’s brief time here was all about getting out of Sun Life, and when Loria stepped in he continued that.  My personal opinion is that early on Loria probably allowed Beinfest to operate the department as he wanted but as different stadium initiatives died one by one he exerted some power over that process too.  There is too much circumstantial evidence around the Cabrera trade to not consider that possibility.  The Marlins traded him in December 07.  He was 24.  By this time the original Orange Bowl proposal had died.  The Marlins had rejected the Huizenga proposal to build next to the football stadium. The Miami Arena site never gained traction.  Then ownership started their charade with San Antonio.  MLB was really leaning on our local officials by this time.  The Marlins could have signed him to a “team friendly” long term commitment.  These are all the rage now.  In 07 they hadn’t really become a thing yet, but the Rays did sign Longoria to one in April 2008 like a week after his MLB debut.  So they were right around the corner.  I don’t recall this promise, but yesterday Le Batard claims that the team promised a Cabrera like trade wouldn’t happen once a ballpark was secured.  I don’t remember that.  If a promise like that was made in public, it lends further evidence to suggest that at that time Loria started putting his hands in baseball business moreso than he did at the onset.  Those 2012 free agencies signing, to me reek of Loria wanting a splash for the new park.  They weren’t smart moves to begin with.  Their undoing was a blessing.  This is basically a long way of saying that Loria’s ownership was all centered on getting public funding for a stadium at all costs, waiting out his penalty period, and then cashing out.  For those reasons it makes baseball operations evaluation extremely difficult to pull off. 

 

 

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