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Jon Heyman apologizes, Clark Spencer seeing things differently now...


SilverBullet
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I think it’s getting a little awkward that posters keep mentioning that the record of the team is the same as the 2017 team. 

 

I mean, ok, if the records are very similar in 4 months please by all means keep talking  about it but right now this team is getting its brains beaten in and they have the 2nd worst Run Differential in MLB.  

 

They will very soon have a record that is not remotely similar to the 2017 team. 

 

The equal records the other day was only one point of MANY as to why complaining that the 2017 team was dismantled is stupid. Even if their records end up drastically different the point still stands. 

 

 

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MLB is the only sport where wonks like many of the posters here openly cheer the non-competiveness of a franchise.  I guess anybody who wants to see entertaining baseball is "stupid".  I grew up a Reds fan and am now a Marlins season ticket holder.  The Reds have failed in their efforts to dismantle the franchise to create a "sustainable" (or whatever the buzzword du jour is) product.  So, I'm skeptical of the rah-rah, let's trade off everyone of value so we suck for 5 years, attitude.

 

 

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The 2017 record was not better because the pitchers were awful. The position players were very good. Now the pitching is still awful and the position players with some exceptions (e,g, Realmuto) even more so. The outfield went from the best to the worst in bb. And I doubt the major trades will make the team significantly better in 2-3 years. They did actually did better in the minor trades (Guerrero, Smith). So they saved some money here (budget) and lost some money there (fan/team revenue) and made the franchise irrelevant in South Florida. Watching Marlins bb is, and will be, like an endless colonoscopy.

 

bingo.  it's a trash product to watch on the field compared to last years product.  I'm pretty sure Jeter and company will NEVER invest money in this team if any of these kids actually end up performing. You know why? Because they obliterated what small fanbase they had.  If you're going to awful. At least be entertaining while you're awful.  Last years team could at least be watched for half of each inning.  This year they're atrocious to watch while pitching and hitting.  I know silverbullet keeps insinuating none of us understand what Jeter is doing. I know full well what he's doing and I do not agree at all and so far the returns he's gotten are underwhelming at best.  I understand what rebuilding means but my point is that he's still not going to invest the required amount of money to get them over the hump if that time ever comes when they are a couple pieces away because they have ZERO fans and will continue to have no support because he turned the team into a group that none of the casual baseball fans give a shit about.

 

 

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So, I'm skeptical of the rah-rah, let's trade off everyone of value so we suck for 5 years, attitude.

 

If we didn't do the rebuild we'd still suck for 5 years. I choose to appreciate them trying to improve instead of wading in mediocrity forever. If you'd have rather they kept the 2017 intact and keep having below .500 seasons while continuing to push the team's financial problems further into the ground then by all means keep wishing we still had Stanton and Co. To each his own. 

 

 

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This is 100% an assumption. Let me know where Jeter said this. 

 

His whole project wolverine or whatever the fuck it was called was reason alone enough to show he has no idea what he's doing based on his wholly unrealistic expectations.

 

Also, if he could have invested money don't you think he would have kept a competitive team and added to it instead of having a firesale that is disguised as a "rebuild"?

 

 

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His whole project wolverine or whatever the fuck it was called was reason alone enough to show he has no idea what he's doing based on his wholly unrealistic expectations.

 

Also, if he could have invested money don't you think he would have kept a competitive team and added to it instead of having a firesale that is disguised as a "rebuild"?

 

You're still assuming. Nowhere in project wolverine did it say that they'll never invest money in this team in the future. 

 

And no he didn't have to invest in the 2017 team right away because that would have involved adding more cheap band aids on an unsustainable product. Throwing money on the problem isn't always the way to fix the problem. Sometimes it actually puts them in a deeper hole. And the firesale wasn't just done for financial reasons, it was also done to rebuild a horrendous farm system. You keep assuming everything Jeter does is to save money. 

 

 

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If we didn't do the rebuild we'd still suck for 5 years. I choose to appreciate them trying to improve instead of wading in mediocrity forever. To each his own though. 

 

i prefer to have a team I can actually enjoy watching and not have to wait years on the blind hope they'll ever get better.  Moreso, I prefer to have an ownership group that would intelligent enough to actually come in and understand how fragile the fanbase was after Loria's clown show and not just do more of the same shit he did.

 

 

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i prefer to have a team I can actually enjoy watching and not have to wait years on the blind hope they'll ever get better.

 

This is where we differ and why all of this debate is fine either way...

 

The 2017 team was a team you actually enjoyed watching? I enjoy the 2018 team because to me their not much worse than the 2017 team. The 2017 team wasn't winning and ended up with a losing record anyways. What's ten losses more at that point?

 

And not having to wait on blind hope they'll ever get better with the 2018 team? To me the 2017 going forward was all about blind hope as well. 

 

Your definition of why you like the 2017 team is the same reason why I'm ok with the 2018 team.

 

It's the same arguments going around and around and around. We won't agree on any of this and that's cool. Time will tell what happens. One way or another I hope I see you at an upcoming World Series parade in Miami. 

 

 

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This is where we differ and why all of this debate is fine either way...

 

The 2017 team was a team you actually enjoyed watching? I enjoy the 2018 team because to me their not much worse than the 2017 team. The 2017 team wasn't winning and ended up with a losing record anyways. What's ten losses more at that point?

 

And not having to wait on blind hope they'll ever get better with the 2018 team? To me the 2017 going forward was all about blind hope as well. 

 

Your definition of why you like the 2017 team is the same reason why I'm ok with the 2018 team.

 

It's the same arguments going around and around and around. We won't agree on any of this and that's cool. Time will tell what happens. One way or another I hope I see you at an upcoming World Series parade in Miami. 

 

Picture a Marlins team that can win the World Series going forward. How many players on the current roster do you see as part of that team? Castro would probably be a decent 7 hitter on a champion, but that's about it. Realmuto is one of the better catchers in the game, but will he still be a catcher in 4-5 years? Will Brinson ever learn how to hit ML pitching? Everyone else will be long gone by then. None of the pitchers except maybe a few of the middle relievers will ever be championship-level players (I'm looking at you, Tayron Guerrero). How about in the minors? Maybe Harrison. Maybe Alcantara. Maybe Sierra can be Juan Pierre, who was a very useful player on the '03 team but not nearly the best. You need a bunch of All-Star caliber players to even make the playoffs, let alone win the WS. Most if not all of the best players on the 2022 Marlins will be drafted by the team the next few years. The Braves and Phillies are miles ahead of us in development. We're a very long way from contending.

 

 

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All of this is assumption, not fact.  There is no fact that keeping the core together would once again guarantee watching a below .500 team.  Just last year, Ozuna had his first complete consistent season, Stanton, for all his power, when he adjusted his stance became a much more consistent hitter, Yelich is still growing in to his power, he is not locked in to "he is what he is" and Bour also just developed in to a more consistent power hitter.  Reamulto still getting better, even Rojas has improved and then you have the addition of Brian Anderson.  So, no, I do not agree that this core would, no matter what, just be a below .500 team because that is what they were.  Now, add some marginally better pitching, this offense could have carried a team to much better levels than before,  I am well aware of the financial issues, but I am only expressing my opinion that the foregone conclusion that the product on the field was not a guaranteed below .500 team.   I would have really enjoyed seeing if that team could have put it together this year.

 

While we made the moves for financial reasons, more than the rational that we were disposing of players that were just losers, the pipeline of players received just does not look like the making of a championship caliber team.  Again, opinion, not fact, but I have no qualms with anyone who does not think the rebuild, at least this version, will turn in to a great product.

 

 

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"All we needed" last year was better pitching. We've gotten better pitching this year from Jarlin Garcia and Caleb Smith. If we kept last year's team and only added Garcia and Smith to the rotation, would we have been contenders in 2018? 

 

that "all we needed" thing is such bs.  Not only because we had no real way to get that pitching, but the point is that we did not have any depth to survive any type of injury.  That is what people dont understand.  How many times have we had an injury and our entire season goes down the tubes?  That is the most important part of this rebuild.    Last year, Stanton, Ozuna, Dee, Yelich, Staily, Urena, and JT were all healthy the entire year, and Ozuna, Stanton, Straily, Urena, and JT all had career years and perhaps in line for a (albeit maybe minor) regression. Expecting them to all not get injured and put up the same years would be incredibly foolish.

 

 

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that "all we needed" thing is such bs.  Not only because we had no real way to get that pitching, but the point is that we did not have any depth to survive any type of injury.  That is what people dont understand.  How many times have we had an injury and our entire season goes down the tubes?  That is the most important part of this rebuild.    Last year, Stanton, Ozuna, Dee, Yelich, Staily, Urena, and JT were all healthy the entire year, and Ozuna, Stanton, Straily, Urena, and JT all had career years and perhaps in line for a (albeit maybe minor) regression. Expecting them to all not get injured and put up the same years would be incredibly foolish.

 

Oh I'm with you... but if we're playing the "all we needed was pitching" game then realistically all the pitching we were gonna acquire was Caleb Smith, who was acquired in a minor trade before the fire sale, and Jarlin Garcia would have been added to the rotation. So if we're gonna play that game then I'd love to see if anyone thinks Garcia and Smith were enough to get us over the hump. 

 

 

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"All they need is to gut the lineup and wait 5 years and magically the losing roster will turn into a winner!"

 

its not magic, its the proven best way to rebuild an organization from bottom to top in the most financially responsible and smart way.  Throwing money at people and trading prospects for quick fixes in baseball is a great way to flame out, which is why we had no farm system to speak of and a thoroughly mediocre roster.

 

 

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Better chance that happens than the other one. It isn't magic, when there's a plan. 

 

exactly this.  Its not like the plan is lose- then hope magically we improve.  It is taking advantage of the way contracts work for young players in this league and trying to build a healthy all around organization.  We had no depth whatsoever before.  One or a few great players isnt enough in this league by themselves to carry a team to greatness like it might be in the NBA or a great QB in the NFL.   Just look at the roster the angels built around trout for the last 5 years.

 

 

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Well for one it's not personal. I don't toss and turn in my sleep over this. But yes I do post about this crap quite a bit and I understand what you're asking and why you're asking. So to that I just say that I myself do support what Jeter is doing and I get annoyed by people who blindly hate on what is happening here. If Jeter deserves hatred for something then by all means go for it.

 

But, to take the specific situation I wrote about, I'm not ok with a long time season ticket holder complaining about the 2018 team in relation to the 2017 team as if the 2017 team was some kind of winner especially on a day that both teams had equal records through the same number of games. Thats illogical and stupid and I'm happy to call someone out on it. Bad analogy but if I borrow $20 from you and then give you back $20 I'm not ok with you bad mouthing me telling people I took $20 from you. 

 

As for you personally I like you and enjoy my conversations with you but I don't get your way of hating Jeter.

 

You said you'd hate Jeter even if the Marlins still won 3 straight championships? Why? You watch the Marlins hoping for them to have success and if Jeters team accomplishes 3 straight years of the pinnacle of success you'd hate the guy? Remember how many championships Loria gave you before you answer that. 

 

That's fair.  I think I'm able to seperate my hate for Jeter and my love for the Marlins.  I'm rooting for Jeter to succeed because it means that the Marlins succeed.  As I've said in the past, I'm past the moves he made.  I'll stick to my point of view though that there is more than one way to build a winner but Jeter has the right to run the show his way.  My dislike of him at this point is his arrogance.  Who knows? Maybe three rings will change my mind.  Lol 

 

When we are contenders again we should all try to get catch a game in the Clevelander.  First round is on me!

 

 

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