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Mr. Wizard

REAL FANS - Do we make Jeter suffer another year of us not attending?

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3 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

Thanks for finally giving an explanation to your original post because it came off a little wild at first.

I just don't agree with your idea that those of us who support Jeter are fake fans. I definitely give a shit about what's going on... I absolutely do not just go along with whatever they do automatically. It actually offends me that anyone would think that. Maybe I really do agree with Jeter and am not just blindly following his every move?

You cannot say that real fans aren't allowed to support them until a winner comes along. That's called a bandwagon fan. I'd rather be here though the bad so that it means something when I'm there for the good and so that I know I'm not only there for the good. We do not have to share your opinion to be considered real fans. 

This is MY OPINION (and others).

A BANDWAGON FAN is someone who doesn't really follow the games during the year or any news on the team until at which time they see that their local team is doing well & then they get involved & are a fan.

My definition of a REAL FAN (as I need to differentiate) is a fan who is loyal to the Marlins (AS WE ALL ARE BECAUSE IT IS OUR TEAM), but is no longer is willing to financially support the team (going to games, buying food, parking, merchandise) as the owners DO NOT take in to considerations what their fans want (keep good players, get good players, get rid of bad players - basically being fan friendly owners & to make a winning team). Jeter could of come in here and not tear up the whole team right away (the fans would of loved him instead of not) with the great players he got rid of and worked on OTHER weak spots of the team. This is what I feel the majority of fans really wanted (maybe you too!). Example, we had one the best outfields in baseball (why would you get rid of that when it takes a very long time to get to that point, you have it already & you LOVE those players?).

My definition of a FAKE FAN (had to come up with a name to differentiate) is a fan who also is also loyal to the Marlins and willing to have their team dismantled for a 4th time with again another owner. They don't  mind and supporting that type of ownership & doesn't/won't take a stand to make their voices heard (which by the way this is how most people are in our country - it's called the Silent Majority) as they just go with the flow & don't make waves. They don't want to do something that takes an active stand to protest what is going on.

I am certainly entitled to have my opinion as this is what this forum is all about. You are certainly entitled to yours and I am not hear to stop you. This is how "I" feel on the situation. There are plenty of the same type of fans as me. If there wasn't, I would be wrong & you wouldn't of had a dismal attendance at the games where their were more fans from opposing teams then ours. I am GLAD that this happened as it showed Jeter that the fans can have an impact on income. But as a previous post with a link to a Flipboard article shows that a lot of owners don't care what their fans want as they just want to make money with the other avenues that they have.

Loria for example made more money out of 2 losing teams then we could ever dream about having. How is that supposed to happen? Something is messed up with this business model for fans (but certainly not for owners).

I love my hometown team as you do, I just do something about it & you don't. I would love more than anything to sit with what I call the fake fans (even you) at a game when we get as fans should. A good team & an owner that cares for their fans. Maybe Jeter will end up that way, but he certainly didn't care enough of the fans to start that way.

 

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36 minutes ago, Mr. Wizard said:

This is MY OPINION (and others).

A BANDWAGON FAN is someone who doesn't really follow the games during the year or any news on the team until at which time they see that their local team is doing well & then they get involved & are a fan.

My definition of a REAL FAN (as I need to differentiate) is a fan who is loyal to the Marlins (AS WE ALL ARE BECAUSE IT IS OUR TEAM), but is no longer is willing to financially support the team (going to games, buying food, parking, merchandise) as the owners DO NOT take in to considerations what their fans want (keep good players, get good players, get rid of bad players - basically being fan friendly owners & to make a winning team). Jeter could of come in here and not tear up the whole team right away (the fans would of loved him instead of not) with the great players he got rid of and worked on OTHER weak spots of the team. This is what I feel the majority of fans really wanted (maybe you too!). Example, we had one the best outfields in baseball (why would you get rid of that when it takes a very long time to get to that point, you have it already & you LOVE those players?).

My definition of a FAKE FAN (had to come up with a name to differentiate) is a fan who also is also loyal to the Marlins and willing to have their team dismantled for a 4th time with again another owner. They don't  mind and supporting that type of ownership & doesn't/won't take a stand to make their voices heard (which by the way this is how most people are in our country - it's called the Silent Majority) as they just go with the flow & don't make waves. They don't want to do something that takes an active stand to protest what is going on.

I am certainly entitled to have my opinion as this is what this forum is all about. You are certainly entitled to yours and I am not hear to stop you. This is how "I" feel on the situation. There are plenty of the same type of fans as me. If there wasn't, I would be wrong & you wouldn't of had a dismal attendance at the games where their were more fans from opposing teams then ours. I am GLAD that this happened as it showed Jeter that the fans can have an impact on income. But as a previous post with a link to a Flipboard article shows that a lot of owners don't care what their fans want as they just want to make money with the other avenues that they have.

Loria for example made more money out of 2 losing teams then we could ever dream about having. How is that supposed to happen? Something is messed up with this business model for fans (but certainly not for owners).

I love my hometown team as you do, I just do something about it & you don't. I would love more than anything to sit with what I call the fake fans (even you) at a game when we get as fans should. A good team & an owner that cares for their fans. Maybe Jeter will end up that way, but he certainly didn't care enough of the fans to start that way.

 

I agree with your bandwagon fan definition, but I'd use the term "fairweather fan" instead of "real fan" and just plain "fan" instead of "fake fan." 

 

 

Here's why:

While I understand not wanting to spend money on a losing organization, or not wanting to support losing, your comments look at things in a vacuum of just seeing firesales.  That's not to say I like that Jeter came in and dismantled the whole thing - I hated it too, but I also see the rationale behind it.  Furthermore, being a new group, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that if they do it this once, and rebuild in a sustainable way (and without doing "win now" moves for mediocre players that kill all system depth while not getting impact guys), that there won't be a need to have another firesale again.  The Cubs did it, Houston did it, etc.  If we're stuck middling around with continual losing teams, back in the same boat in a few years, sure!  Grab the pitchforks, burn your jerseys, cancel ticket plans, etc. etc.  It'll mean the burning it down they did last offseason didn't accomplish anything.  Again, until then, I'm giving them rope to hang themselves on if they screw up.  It's painful to watch in the interim, but if blowing it up last offseason means a long term, consistent winner, wasn't that worth sacrificing that team to create a new long line of great teamS?

Remember too - ticket plans/sales, merchandise sales, concessions, etc. help pay for the good players that will help the team win.  And hey, that's not to say I have a problem with not wanting to spend a ton of money going to games to watch a terrible team - I don't - I only went to two games last year because I didn't deem it worth my time or money to spend at a game watching an noncompetitive team.  I didn't ever watch a full game on TV last year either for the same reason.  But when you jump from that to "I'm not buying/paying for ANYTHING associated with the team until they win", that's a fairweather fan.  Oh they're good now!  Now I'll support them!  That's being a supporter when you feel like it - when they're doing "enough".

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On the other hand, what you call a "fake fan" - what I'm calling just a "fan" - feels a loyalty to the team through thick and thin.  Look at the Cubs - they endured 100-something years of winning nothing, yet they still had good attendance and support.  That support does NOT mean that those fans support everything and every move that's made by the organization - I and many others here don't like that they blew it up again, don't like certain trades that were made, don't like particular guys that we received.  BUT, it is what it is.  The moves were made in an effort to build a long-term sustainable competitor, and though painful, we can see the plan.  Whether that plan ultimately works out or not remains to be seen - only time will tell - but, we still support the team, its OUR team, even if it sucks.  That means buying new merchandise when they rebrand; going to a game or two every year; following the moves made; etc.

You bring up attendance......yes, official "attendance" was significantly down this year.  What you're ignoring is that Loria/Samson inflated the numbers.  What was reported wasn't actual attendance, it was tickets sold.  So if they bought 1,000 tickets for $1, bam, attendance jumped by 1,000, even though no extra person was there.  Actual attendance seemed about the same, though probably lower, compared to before they started reporting true numbers.

As for Jeter turning out to be an owner that cares about the fans - I don't have any doubt he wants to create a winner.  I don't at all feel he's Loria with the team as his pet project there to make him money, but that doesn't mean you can just throw money around like it's sand on a beach.  Though painful, he did what he felt was best for the team long term, while fans (of all types) look at short term, single year results.  He DEFINITELY could've done better PR wise.  He/they did horribly in that regard, though.

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2 hours ago, Mr. Wizard said:

I love my hometown team as you do, I just do something about it & you don't. 

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion and I respect that... but this line right here js what kills me about you.

This is absolute bullshit as you are basically calling me and others here cowards because we agree with most of Jeter's moves.

You're saying that fans like myself shouldn't agree with Jeter and our problem is that we sit back and choose to do nothing. If I have a problem with my team I will speak up and also speak with my wallet but I, at this point, do not have a problem with them... so there is no cowardice here, just a choice to continue to support my team. I'm not doing this against my will or because I want to be part of a silent majority or because I'm afraid to make waves.

Your definition of any fan who isn't doing what you're doing is insulting.

Think whatever else you want but fuck off with that bullshit. 

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8 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion and I respect that... but this line right here js what kills me about you.

This is absolute bullshit as you are basically calling me and others here cowards because we agree with most of Jeter's moves.

You're saying that fans like myself shouldn't agree with Jeter and our problem is that we sit back and choose to do nothing. If I have a problem with my team I will speak up and also speak with my wallet but I, at this point, do not have a problem with them... so there is no cowardice here, just a choice to continue to support my team. I'm not doing this against my will or because I want to be part of a silent majority or because I'm afraid to make waves.

Your definition of any fan who isn't doing what you're doing is insulting.

Think whatever else you want but fuck off with that bullshit. 

Don't make up words that you think I am saying. I NEVER said anything about cowards (your own interpretation). Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts. If you don't like MY definition, then you don't care about my opinion, which I don't mind. Since you don't agree and lashing out, you must be so thin skinned that you can't take my constructive points of view. Instead you post like a juvenile that blurts out profanities (how mature).  Like I said I started the post to find out if fans are supporting the team for this year or not so I can gauge how people feel for this year. If you want to go & spend your money you have every right to. Obviously you don't find my meaning nor humor in anything I wrote due to what you are spitting towards me. You should grow up. Instead maybe you should just say your point of view like you did when you said "just a choice to continue to support my team. I'm not doing this against my will or because I want to be part of a silent majority or because I'm afraid to make waves". That would of been good enough, but I guess you can't help yourself with the way you interpret things.

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3 minutes ago, Mr. Wizard said:

Don't make up words that you think I am saying. I NEVER said anything about cowards (your own interpretation). Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts. If you don't like MY definition, then you don't care about my opinion, which I don't mind. Since you don't agree and lashing out, you must be so thin skinned that you can't take my constructive points of view. Instead you post like a juvenile that blurts out profanities (how mature).  Like I said I started the post to find out if fans are supporting the team for this year or not so I can gauge how people feel for this year. If you want to go & spend your money you have every right to. Obviously you don't find my meaning nor humor in anything I wrote due to what you are spitting towards me. You should grow up. Instead maybe you should just say your point of view like you did when you said "just a choice to continue to support my team. I'm not doing this against my will or because I want to be part of a silent majority or because I'm afraid to make waves". That would of been good enough, but I guess you can't help yourself with the way you interpret things.

I don't need to grow up. I definitely used profanities because your words were insulting to me and it pissed me off... so if we're two adults, I should be allowed to use profanities in a conversation. It's real easy to just point fingers at someone using profanity and start calling them juvenile as a way to take the attention off what's really being discussed. 

So back to what's being discussed... according to you every Marlins fan who spent money on the team in 2018 is doing so because they're too scared to speak up for themselves and so they just go with the flow right? That's exactly what you said. That's called a coward whether you said the word or not. That is a whole lot of people to be insinuating cowardice towards. 

I'm gonna be honest man, I don't wanna keep on with this back and forth, it doesn't lead to anything good. I think you've said your words and I've said mine. Even getting upset, believe me or not, I do respect you. Say whatever you want next, I'm done, I can't take this any further. 

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Again, anyone who currently identifies themselves as a Marlins fan...is a Marlins fan.  There would be no reason for anyone to follow the Marlins unless they're a fan - let alone come onto this mb and post, argue, and post again. 

I loathe Jeter and Sherman and have disagreed with about 90% of what they've done.  I know I'm a Marlins fan though.  I care about the franchise and will walk away from following baseball entirely before I'd ever change to another team. 

Others seem to agree with about 90% of what Jeter and Sherman have done.  I've never once said you aren't a fan of the team though.  I know you are - I don't agree with MOST of your reasoning but I'd never say you aren't a fan.  You can converse about the team and reference stats, historical moments, and get the inside jokes so many of us use over and over. 

And then there are those in the middle who also post regularly on here and probably want to kill all members of both the above referenced groups and regain some measure of sanity on the board.  I certainly wouldn't think of you as any less of a fan either. 

To say those of us who refuse to buy merchandise, attend games, etc. due to the path the new regime has taken doesn't make me any less of a fan.  There's nothing wrong with expressing your outrage at the direction the owners took by refusing to give them another dime until you feel they are  actually trying to reinvest in the team you care about.

Conversely, there's nothing wrong with continuing to be excited about a new design scheme and wanting to show your support of the direction the team is headed. 

We just believe in different things yet we're both still diehard fans. 

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7 hours ago, Michael said:

Yes, I know pitching is what we needed, but it wasn't going to be just two pitchers. I see you listed Fiers, Anderson, and Harvey later in the thread, so I'll address that.

Fiers would have been a 100% no-go because Stanton doesn't like the guy for breaking his face, but maybe in the interest of winning they'd have gotten over that. Or not. Harvey ... maybe. Perhaps he just needed a change of scenery, didn't exactly do great in Cincinnati but that team's not so good as it is. Anderson ended up injured but of course you can't predict that - given his numbers when he played, though, also not so great. Basically would have been in the same situation, IMO.

On top of all that, you're just looking at starters and then assuming the bullpen automatically becomes good. It's a huge assumption that the starters you sign are going to always go at least six or seven innings and allow the bullpen arms time to rest and be better. So in reality, it's not just two or three starting pitchers. You're looking more at, overall, probably six to eight arms.

One of the reasons our bullpen suffered was because of it was overused from the stupid short start garbage. Having been used less it would have held out. I also think playing in this environments wouldo have yielded better results on those pitchers. All in all, it was worth the shot. The only thing is it was never going to happen because Sherman is not interested in winning, only profiting. 

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1 hour ago, sdg210 said:

One of the reasons our bullpen suffered was because of it was overused from the stupid short start garbage. Having been used less it would have held out. I also think playing in this environments wouldo have yielded better results on those pitchers. All in all, it was worth the shot. The only thing is it was never going to happen because Sherman is not interested in winning, only profiting. 

Yes, and I'll concede that to a point. I still don't think it'd have been that much better with a couple guys being able to throw 6-7 innings consistently, personally. The staff just wasn't there, in my opinion. Assuming we were keeping the exact same powerful lineup from 2017 with zero drop-off, then realistically how do we acquire those pitchers? You had said "just trade for cash," which just doesn't happen. Teams want more than that. Furthermore, you must remember, they bought this team at about a $400M deficit. Where's the money coming from then to trade for these pitchers, or even sign them, unless they were willing to take a massively backloaded or deferred deal.  I'm talking like Carlos Delgado style contract. It was a 4 year $52M deal that only saw us pay him $4M for that first year, and then traded him off.

I just don't see the bullpen being that much better from a couple more consistent starters / innings eaters that they transform into a playoff team. We're talking at least 10 games that had to be made up for even a wild card spot.

And I don't think Sherman has no interest in winning. You have to give it at least five years, not one, and I understand patience is probably gone at this point because this is the fourth rebuild in franchise history and third since our last playoff appearance. But, first one with the new ownership, and I'm willing to see it through.

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12 hours ago, Michael said:

Yes, and I'll concede that to a point. I still don't think it'd have been that much better with a couple guys being able to throw 6-7 innings consistently, personally. The staff just wasn't there, in my opinion. Assuming we were keeping the exact same powerful lineup from 2017 with zero drop-off, then realistically how do we acquire those pitchers? You had said "just trade for cash," which just doesn't happen. Teams want more than that. Furthermore, you must remember, they bought this team at about a $400M deficit. Where's the money coming from then to trade for these pitchers, or even sign them, unless they were willing to take a massively backloaded or deferred deal.  I'm talking like Carlos Delgado style contract. It was a 4 year $52M deal that only saw us pay him $4M for that first year, and then traded him off.

I just don't see the bullpen being that much better from a couple more consistent starters / innings eaters that they transform into a playoff team. We're talking at least 10 games that had to be made up for even a wild card spot.

And I don't think Sherman has no interest in winning. You have to give it at least five years, not one, and I understand patience is probably gone at this point because this is the fourth rebuild in franchise history and third since our last playoff appearance. But, first one with the new ownership, and I'm willing to see it through.

As I mentioned, we're not in normal times. Many teams are in a race to the bottom choosing revenues over winning. It would have been the perfect time to do it. And I've said numerous times, they had the money to overpay for this team. I know there was money to spend to win. Micky Arion does it. If they cared they would have done it at least through the trade deadline, if things didn't work out then blow it up. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the bullpen. It was fairly strong in 2016 and just needed less use. 

As for sherman, this has nothing to do with what takes place on the field. This is from my conversation with people that know him personally. The team was an investment. He is looking to make money. He does not care about winning. The article I cited shows he's not the only one. It is true Jeter is running the team. Sherman is not interested in that. But he's given Jeter marching orders with respect to budgeting and how much to spend. The budget, as of now, is comparble to that of lower market teams (I've tried get specifics but havent been able to grt those). Jeter can do whatever he wants in running the team. It's his show. However, he is on a tight leash. 

This is not what I signed up for. We had a team with an obvious missing piece. Instead of trying to find ways they blow it up in the name of profits. Sadly, this is the new trend in baseball. Next time, I see manfred I'll make sure he knows. But I'm not about to have season tickets to watch a garbage. I could barely stomach it last year and I only had because I got suckered in August of 2016. I supported past rebuilds during the prior ownerships (not the 1998 one). But this was wrong. The least they could have done was try to fix the problem but that was never going to happen. The payroll was too high for sherman to ensure his rate of return so it had to go. Even if we were winning it would have gone. And that is why the only games I will attend are the games where they wear the only logo that matters.

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