DH Will Not Be Universal

[Photo-Realistic Billy]

20 minutes ago, Michael said:

Actually, I do want this one.

And I keep pointing back to a Spring Training game a couple years ago that ended up with a 13-8 final in under 3 hours due to pitch clock. Heh. I know it's anecdotal but gosh dang that game had me locked in like a playoff game. Pitch clock absolutely accelerates pace of play (or really, pace of action).

As for the DH - I'm not necessarily pro DH but I see it as inevitable and you won't lose *that* much strategy. Shoot the three batter minimum required more of it so that's one that I came around to actually liking.

Yeah, I'm trying to wrap my ahead around the argument that likes pitchers hitting because of the strategy, but cannot appreciate the strategy requirements imposed by the three better minimum. We're still going to see pinch hitting can clever bullpen use, and it's likely going to be because of the 3-batter min.

[SilverBullet]

I don't want the DH but I've accepted it because baseball is still a business and the DH creates an extra roster spot on the NL teams and thus equals more jobs so the union will eventually get it.

But then again I don't think the strategy argument is as strong as people think. Defensive subs and pinch hitting is definitely a great part of baseball but it won't ruin the sport to not have these things. Having the DH doesn't suddenly make games awful. And I know a slugfest isn't as thrilling as a 2-1 game but to call a game with more offense "boring" is pretty weird. Home runs aren't boring, even if there's more of them. I didn't enjoy 2020 Marlins games any less because the pitcher didn't bat.

[legacyofCangelosi]

On 12/10/2020 at 9:37 AM, SilverBullet said:

I don't want the DH but I've accepted it because baseball is still a business and the DH creates an extra roster spot on the NL teams and thus equals more jobs so the union will eventually get it.

But then again I don't think the strategy argument is as strong as people think. Defensive subs and pinch hitting is definitely a great part of baseball but it won't ruin the sport to not have these things. Having the DH doesn't suddenly make games awful. And I know a slugfest isn't as thrilling as a 2-1 game but to call a game with more offense "boring" is pretty weird. Home runs aren't boring, even if there's more of them. I didn't enjoy 2020 Marlins games any less because the pitcher didn't bat.

DH games are boring as hell. The strategy “argument” like the more offense is more fun argument are just matters of personal preference. I rather watch a 2-1 game where every move matters than a 13-7 game.  The currently homerun or strikeout tendency the league has had is not particularly fun. Base stealing, hit and runs, plays at the plate. All of that is way more exciting. It’s a matter of personal preference, but to me what it comes down to is why not just leave one league with the DH for people who prefer that type of baseball and one without it for the other group of people. It makes the most sense. 
 

As to Michael I see your point regarding the pitch clock and the three hitter minimum. You’re right about that. 

[SilverBullet]

2 hours ago, legacyofCangelosi said:

I rather watch a 2-1 game where every move matters than a 13-7 game

I agree with this. But to call a game with a lot of offense "boring" is an odd choice of words because there are a shit ton of people who would rather watch hits and runs being scored than a pitching duel with much less action around the bases. Both types of games can be fun to watch in their own ways and tbh now that I think about it you can still have a low scoring game with the DH. It's not like the DH is guaranteed to get hits and score runs every time they come up, and it's not like the DH suddenly makes the other eight batters better either. There's this generalization that no DH equals low scoring games and DH equals high scoring games but that's not always true.

[legacyofCangelosi]

1 hour ago, SilverBullet said:

I agree with this. But to call a game with a lot of offense "boring" is an odd choice of words because there are a shit ton of people who would rather watch hits and runs being scored than a pitching duel with much less action around the bases. Both types of games can be fun to watch in their own ways and tbh now that I think about it you can still have a low scoring game with the DH. It's not like the DH is guaranteed to get hits and score runs every time they come up, and it's not like the DH suddenly makes the other eight batters better either. There's this generalization that no DH equals low scoring games and DH equals high scoring games but that's not always true.

DH games are boring because what I consider to be one of the most compelling and entertaining parts of baseball, which is in game strategy and bullpen management is heavily reduced. It isn’t because there’s a higher chance of more offense that I think DH games are more boring. 

[1.618]

I'm not a fan of any sport trying to change rules to increase entertainment. But I'm in favor for a more competitive approach for sure.  

Does anyone really believe after watching last season and having the DH, Donnie was less assertive with situational moves than years prior when  not having the DH?   Donnie won MOTY because of the DH.   He actually had to manage.

Lets not exaggerate the volume of runs from the DH, that's absurd.  If anything, mlb is allowing juiced baseballs, bats and sign stealing to increase higher scores, but that's another topic.  Believe what you want.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by jeffreysfishfry

[1.618]

6 minutes ago, legacyofCangelosi said:

DH games are boring because what I consider to be one of the most compelling and entertaining parts of baseball, which is in game strategy and bullpen management is heavily reduced. It isn’t because there’s a higher chance of more offense that I think DH games are more boring. 

You want to tell me that Donnie managed less last year with the DH then he did years prior when he there was no DH?

I just want to know if I was watching a different team or something. 

[1.618]

On 12/10/2020 at 6:17 AM, taiwanmarlin said:

I don't like the stuff of "forced pitching change", "forced double switch " and the most of the pitchers get hurt due to hitting and running the bases.

You can still have double switches in a DH lineup.  We seen it last year.   

I would argue that with the DH, you are forced to make just as many if not more moves in the bullpen.  Situational pitching and batting plays relatively the same down the stretch.  

The Rays have been managing a pitching carousel  in a DH league.  That manager won AL MOTY to. 

[SilverBullet]

The fact that we got a 60 game sample of the NL using the DH last season is pretty cool for the sake of this argument. Imagine if they eliminated the DH from the AL for 60 games in 2021 just to see how it goes and then make the final decision after that.

[SilverBullet]

8 hours ago, jeffreysfishfry said:

You want to tell me that Donnie managed less last year with the DH then he did years prior when he there was no DH?

Yea Donnie definitely managed less in 2020 than in years prior. The 2020 season was only 60 games, the prior years were 162 games.

[Admin]

2 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

Yea Donnie definitely managed less in 2020 than in years prior. The 2020 season was only 60 games, the prior years were 162 games.

[legacyofCangelosi]

11 hours ago, jeffreysfishfry said:

I'm not a fan of any sport trying to change rules to increase entertainment. But I'm in favor for a more competitive approach for sure.  

Does anyone really believe after watching last season and having the DH, Donnie was less assertive with situational moves than years prior when  not having the DH?   Donnie won MOTY because of the DH.   He actually had to manage.

Lets not exaggerate the volume of runs from the DH, that's absurd.  If anything, mlb is allowing juiced baseballs, bats and sign stealing to increase higher scores, but that's another topic.  Believe what you want.

 

 

 

 

 

He didn’t win MOTY because he “manager more “ with a DH. He won it solely because he took a team that was picked to finish last to a .500 record and made the expanded playoffs. Mattingly is a horrendous in game manager with or without the DH. He’s a great player manager and he consistently gets players to play hard for him and the team. 
 

I base this opinion on what players have consistently said about him since his Dodgers days. 

[Photo-Realistic Billy]

38 minutes ago, legacyofCangelosi said:

Mattingly is a horrendous in game manager with or without the DH.

[needs citation]

[Michael]

6 minutes ago, Photo-Realistic Billy said:

[needs citation]

There are many but there's also many other things he does correctly.

[1.618]

18 minutes ago, legacyofCangelosi said:

He didn’t win MOTY because he “manager more “ with a DH. He won it solely because he took a team that was picked to finish last to a .500 record and made the expanded playoffs. Mattingly is a horrendous in game manager with or without the DH. He’s a great player manager and he consistently gets players to play hard for him and the team. 
 

I base this opinion on what players have consistently said about him since his Dodgers days. 

A lot of this is true.  Donnie has always been horrendous as a game manager (except for last year) and he tends to get the most out of his players.  But that doesn't disprove that he didn't have to make fewer moves from having the DH.  

 

 

 

[Photo-Realistic Billy]

I'm telling ya folks, you're killing me. Mattingly has only ever worked for the Yankees (a top tier, analytical organization), the Dodgers (a top tier, analytical organization), and the Marlins (an up-and-coming but also now a very analytical organization). If he weren't cutting mustard with his in-game decisions, then why did the Dodgers employ him so long? Why did the Marlins extend him? And how, in his many years with these forward-thinking organizations, did he not learn anything about game management?

I don't know why this bothers me more than most things -- maybe it's because I hear the Cubs fans, Braves fans, and Rays fans in my life lob these same complaints about their various managers. But frankly, we have to assume that most managers are working with a whole heckuva lot more information than us plopped onto our couches at home. We shouldn't just hate what we don't understand.

[1.618]

43 minutes ago, Photo-Realistic Billy said:

I'm telling ya folks, you're killing me. Mattingly has only ever worked for the Yankees (a top tier, analytical organization), the Dodgers (a top tier, analytical organization), and the Marlins (an up-and-coming but also now a very analytical organization). If he weren't cutting mustard with his in-game decisions, then why did the Dodgers employ him so long? Why did the Marlins extend him? And how, in his many years with these forward-thinking organizations, did he not learn anything about game management?

I don't know why this bothers me more than most things -- maybe it's because I hear the Cubs fans, Braves fans, and Rays fans in my life lob these same complaints about their various managers. But frankly, we have to assume that most managers are working with a whole heckuva lot more information than us plopped onto our couches at home. We shouldn't just hate what we don't understand.

The analytics approach has evolved Donnies managerial skills.  He's been more assertive trusting the data will produce the percentages.   Maybe Donnie has been horrible at in game decisions but that seemed to change completely last year, and like you said, it's largely in part because it's an organizational push. 

To say that Donnie only won MOTY because they made the playoffs and ignore all the other components that makeup what it takes to win is.....

If fans believe that you can't manage with the DH just as much without it, they weren't paying attention last year.  

[Michael]

15 minutes ago, jeffreysfishfry said:

The analytics approach has evolved Donnies managerial skills.  He's been more assertive trusting the data will produce the percentages.   Maybe Donnie has been horrible at in game decisions but that seemed to change completely last year, and like you said, it's largely in part because it's an organizational push. 

To say that Donnie only won MOTY because they made the playoffs and ignore all the other components that makeup what it takes to win is.....

If fans believe that you can't manage with the DH just as much without it, they weren't paying attention last year.  

In some cases Donnie overmanaged, I'd say.

A little too much "let's hit Joyce for Brinson" for my liking. The defensive drop is too much to make up for the offensive increase, which was lacking anyways.

[1.618]

31 minutes ago, Michael said:

In some cases Donnie overmanaged, I'd say.

A little too much "let's hit Joyce for Brinson" for my liking. The defensive drop is too much to make up for the offensive increase, which was lacking anyways.

Glad you noticed that. I cringed a bit when Donnie did that, but  I was ok with it just because he was showing nothing is free and him being assertive.  

Edited December 12, 2020 by jeffreysfishfry

[Michael]

15 minutes ago, jeffreysfishfry said:

Glad you noticed that. I cringed a bit when Donnie did that, but  I was ok with it just because he was showing nothing is free and him being assertive.  

It was even worse though when it took place early and with nobody on. Even if Joyce had a slightly better chance to get on base, the drop in speed and then the drop in defense was too much.

But, that's over now.

[1.618]

8 minutes ago, Michael said:

It was even worse though when it took place early and with nobody on. Even if Joyce had a slightly better chance to get on base, the drop in speed and then the drop in defense was too much.

But, that's over now.

Maybe he has a bias to LH hitters, being one himself.  He definitely wasn't in the data matrix on that one. 

[SilverBullet]

Mattingly didn't win MOTY for what he did on the field. 

My profession isn't the same as Donnie's but the people in my profession are very much separated by who can get the most of people with limited resources so I can relate very much to the things that make Donnie great at his job. 

[1.618]

1 hour ago, SilverBullet said:

Mattingly didn't win MOTY for what he did on the field. 

My profession isn't the same as Donnie's but the people in my profession are very much separated by who can get the most of people with limited resources so I can relate very much to the things that make Donnie great at his job. 

It all starts from the top. 

[FishFan95]

On 12/7/2020 at 3:35 PM, Michael said:

Just one more year of that and we'll be fine. 2022 with new CBA will have DH.

I'm actually worried about the new CBA. With the slow offseasons and the pandemic affecting the finances, I think this is the absolute worst time to renegotiate a new CBA. Between COVID and a possible strike, we could see 3 straight shortened seasons. Could we every recover from that?

[Michael]

14 minutes ago, FishFan95 said:

I'm actually worried about the new CBA. With the slow offseasons and the pandemic affecting the finances, I think this is the absolute worst time to renegotiate a new CBA. Between COVID and a possible strike, we could see 3 straight shortened seasons. Could we every recover from that?

The sport has always figured it out somehow.