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Abortion


Johnny Reb
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I don't like it as a relied upon form of birth control ("just cum inside, if I get pregnant, I'll just get an abortion!") but it doesn't matter what I like, the right to decide should be left up to the one (yes, one) person it affects. Making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortions, it just stops legal abortions and makes all abortions that still take place exponentially more dangerous. If you truly care about "every life" then you should believe in the legality of abortion, because if not, you're risking at least one life that cannot be debated. 

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3 minutes ago, SongInTheAir said:

I don't like it as a relied upon form of birth control ("just cum inside, if I get pregnant, I'll just get an abortion!") but it doesn't matter what I like, the right to decide should be left up to the one (yes, one) person it affects. Making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortions, it just stops legal abortions and makes all abortions that still take place exponentially more dangerous. If you truly care about "every life" then you should believe in the legality of abortion, because if not, you're risking at least one life that cannot be debated. 

Well it can affect more than one life.

Let's say man says, well we agreed upon an abortion if you got pregnant, now you want to keep it, but I dont want responsibility for this child.

What happens then? Its not just a black and white only affects one person type of deal.

Or conversely what if a man WANTS the woman to keep the child but the woman refuses?  

We look at it in truly black and white terms when our society is far more complex though!

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4 minutes ago, SongInTheAir said:

I don't like it as a relied upon form of birth control ("just cum inside, if I get pregnant, I'll just get an abortion!") but it doesn't matter what I like, the right to decide should be left up to the one (yes, one) person it affects. Making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortions, it just stops legal abortions and makes all abortions that still take place exponentially more dangerous. If you truly care about "every life" then you should believe in the legality of abortion, because if not, you're risking at least one life that cannot be debated. 

If you truly are 'caring about every life' and being 'Pro Life' then you also should be in favor of things like:

-health care

-education

-housing

- food programs

Because all of those things go hand in hand.  You cant just say, well I am 'Pro Life' but after the kid is born, best of luck to you.  Thats the definition of a fucking hypocrite and the people that piss me off and annoy me the most when I proceed to call bullshit on them being 'Pro Life' its 'Anti Abortion'.  

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Just now, Johnny Reb said:

Well it can affect more than one life.

Let's say man says, well we agreed upon an abortion if you got pregnant, now you want to keep it, but I dont want responsibility for this child.

What happens then? Its not just a black and white only affects one person type of deal.

Or conversely what if a man WANTS the woman to keep the child but the woman refuses?  

We look at it in truly black and white terms when our society is far more complex though!

I see your point, I guess I meant the physical life it affects. It definitely gets to be a much trickier situation when you bring a difference in decision among the biological mother and father into play. I've heard a response to that be something like "if the woman wants the child and the man doesn't, the woman should waive her right to child support" and I feel like that's an awful solution. That being said, I don't know what the solution is. 

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1 minute ago, Das Texan said:

If you truly are 'caring about every life' and being 'Pro Life' then you also should be in favor of things like:

-health care

-education

-housing

- food programs

Because all of those things go hand in hand.  You cant just say, well I am 'Pro Life' but after the kid is born, best of luck to you.  Thats the definition of a fucking hypocrite and the people that piss me off and annoy me the most when I proceed to call bullshit on them being 'Pro Life' its 'Anti Abortion'.  

oh god, absolutely. They'll say, "life begins at conception" all day long while believing "Pro Life ends at birth". Once you're alive, it's just you and your bootstraps! Unless you commit a crime, then pro-death!

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Just now, SongInTheAir said:

oh god, absolutely. They'll say, "life begins at conception" all day long while believing "Pro Life ends at birth". Once you're alive, it's just you and your bootstraps! Unless you commit a crime, then pro-death!

Me personally...

I'm Pro Life from conception to natural death and EVERYTHING in between.

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1 minute ago, SongInTheAir said:

anti-war then, too?

It depends on the root causes of said war end of day.

War as an aggressor, pretty much always.  

War when you are defending your homeland and everything?   Thats far trickier and it plays a number of other factors into play.

Just War theory is interesting.  

My thoughts on war largely follows what is written in Summa Theologica.  

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3 hours ago, Das Texan said:

If you truly are 'caring about every life' and being 'Pro Life' then you also should be in favor of things like:

-health care

-education

-housing

- food programs

Because all of those things go hand in hand.  You cant just say, well I am 'Pro Life' but after the kid is born, best of luck to you.  Thats the definition of a fucking hypocrite and the people that piss me off and annoy me the most when I proceed to call bullshit on them being 'Pro Life' its 'Anti Abortion'.  

Most pro-life people equate abortion to murder. So to them, this line of argument would be the same as saying "If society is not forced to provide health care, education, etc. then murder should be legal!" The fact is, the abortion is murder argument is a winning one. Why else would pro-choice individuals go so far as to actively deny that the gestating child is even alive? There is even a war on words where they don't want the child to be referred to as a "baby" but fetus instead as that would lead to less emotional attachment. Additionally, it should be noted the attempt to label pro-lifers as "anti-choice." Keep in mind, people who see abortion as murder do not see it as a viable choice.

 

I for one take the approach that it should be legal until the point that consciousness is developed in the growing child. Sort of coming from the angle of René Descartes; "I think therefore I am." If there is scientific uncertainty as to the state of development in which this emerges, I air on the side of pro-life. However, if it is established that a child has certainly not reached consciousness, then abortion should not be prohibited and should be performed quickly, if possible on the same day. No one should be able to delay the process so that consciousness emerges in order to prevent it.

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3 hours ago, SongInTheAir said:

oh god, absolutely. They'll say, "life begins at conception" all day long while believing "Pro Life ends at birth". Once you're alive, it's just you and your bootstraps! Unless you commit a crime, then pro-death!

Keep in mind, that pro-lifers see the abortion as murder. They are not as much pro-life as anti murder, and thus anti abortion. If you can't see the difference between "murdering" an innocent child and executing a violent criminal most likely convicted of killing another person, then you will never be able to convince pro-lifers of anything.

Note, that I personally am anti capital punishment myself.

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As I mentioned in the vaccines topic:

 It’s a shitty situation to be in, but no one, especially a government entity, should tell you what to do with your body (and that includes prostitution if someone wants to start a prostitution topic too lol). I also agree with @Johnny Reb, equality means equality.  If the woman can decide to physically keep it, then a man should be legally allowed to disown it pre-birth. I’m not saying it’s the “right” or honorable thing to do, but the freedom of choice needs to extend both ways. I can acknowledge the predicament one would be in when trying to figure out how to handle a situation where the man wants it and the woman doesn’t. At first thought you could say to require the woman to have it and then give the man full, irrevocable custody after the birth. But that’s wrong on two levels; you still have a law forcing her to have it for his sake which is wrong, and you’re forcing her to give birth to a kid she didn’t want originally but may develop feelings for once that oxytocin flows after birth or that may kill her during birth altogether so that’s fucked up too. Not an easy one there.

Edited by marlinsmaniac
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22 minutes ago, FishFan95 said:

Keep in mind, that pro-lifers see the abortion as murder. They are not as much pro-life as anti murder, and thus anti abortion. If you can't see the difference between "murdering" an innocent child and executing a violent criminal most likely convicted of killing another person, then you will never be able to convince pro-lifers of anything.

Note, that I personally am anti capital punishment myself.

It's hard to say they are anti-murder when they are pro-everything that leads to murder though. You (not *you* personally, using "you" theoretically) can't convince me that you're anti-murder while being pro-war, pro-guns, pro-letting the poor die on the streets from neglect and so on. If someone is pro-life to the point where they believe only "god" or even "nature" should end a life in all circumstances, I can respect the shit out of that. If not, it's hard to see it as anything other than hypocritical. 

 

For clarity about what I believe:

Abortion should be legal up until the point that the being can live for itself. Until it can, that child is not alive.

Further, at any point that someone is unable to live without assistance, that person should be "allowed" to die.

No one should ever be made to die for something they did. First of all, there are way too many false convictions leading to innocent people being killed by the state. Second of all, it costs taxpayers more money to kill someone than to imprison them for life. Third of all, life in prison is a MUCH worse punishment than falling asleep and not waking up. Lastly, the electric chair and firing squad are both barbaric options that a civilization that calls itself civilized can never defend. 

 

Thanks for reading the script to my Theodore Chat. 

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34 minutes ago, FishFan95 said:

Most pro-life people equate abortion to murder. So to them, this line of argument would be the same as saying "If society is not forced to provide health care, education, etc. then murder should be legal!" The fact is, the abortion is murder argument is a winning one. Why else would pro-choice individuals go so far as to actively deny that the gestating child is even alive? There is even a war on words where they don't want the child to be referred to as a "baby" but fetus instead as that would lead to less emotional attachment. Additionally, it should be noted the attempt to label pro-lifers as "anti-choice." Keep in mind, people who see abortion as murder do not see it as a viable choice.

 

I for one take the approach that it should be legal until the point that consciousness is developed in the growing child. Sort of coming from the angle of René Descartes; "I think therefore I am." If there is scientific uncertainty as to the state of development in which this emerges, I air on the side of pro-life. However, if it is established that a child has certainly not reached consciousness, then abortion should not be prohibited and should be performed quickly, if possible on the same day. No one should be able to delay the process so that consciousness emerges in order to prevent it.

The quote “I think therefore I am” doesn’t define consciousness to the unborn baby.  Its like saying I had to choose to be a male before I had a penis.  Did you know that an unborn baby can have a fully formed erection? Does that mean the baby had to “think therefore I am”. to have a hard-on.  

Lets try to keep this mature as possible folks. 😃

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10 minutes ago, FishFry said:

The quote “I think therefore I am” doesn’t define consciousness to the unborn baby.  Its like saying I had to choose to be a male before I had a penis.  Did you know that an unborn baby can have a fully formed erection? Does that mean the baby had to “think therefore I am”. to have a hard-on.  

Lets try to keep this mature as possible folks. 😃

if having a boner is grounds for being a human, should we just kill everyone with a viagra script?

(this is, obviously, a joke)

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Just now, SongInTheAir said:

if having a boner is grounds for being a human, should we just kill everyone with a viagra script?

(this is, obviously, a joke)

Nobody should be killed, boner or no boner.   

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4 hours ago, FishFan95 said:

Keep in mind, that pro-lifers see the abortion as murder. They are not as much pro-life as anti murder, and thus anti abortion. If you can't see the difference between "murdering" an innocent child and executing a violent criminal most likely convicted of killing another person, then you will never be able to convince pro-lifers of anything.

Note, that I personally am anti capital punishment myself.

Although I’m against capital punishment, I disagree with your comment that pro-lifers who view abortion as murder and pro capital are conversationally out of reach and here’s why.  

My only case for pro capital punishment isn’t for revenge or just punishment but rather to preserve humanity from repeated offenders and to eliminate possible crimes that may not be committed with a more intimidating sentence.  With murders spiking today, the justice penalty doesn’t seem to be working and people who tend to care about life come off as cruel and hateful.

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