5/9 Post Game

[SonOfJack]

[hovertical]

Man I'd kill to have an actual manager who understands the value of using "advanced" metrics in managing a team. I say advanced only in the sense that it's more than just right/left matchups and pitch count, which, so far I can tell, is all Don does. Outside of Sunday's game I've already given up watching them this season again unless I have nothing else to do. I got better stuff to do than watch this team go down in flames and struggle all season long with an idiot for a manager and a brain dead GM. I do enjoy the game thread banter so I'll likely still post on there while I'm watching something else and y'all are bemoaning another Donnie special.

[SilverBullet]

I'm at the point where I feel like I'm rooting for more losses hoping it leads to changes. 

[SonOfJack]

7 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

I'm at the point where I feel like I'm rooting for more losses hoping it leads to changes. 

I get this mindset, but I have zero confidence in them to do anything to help the ball club at this point after their shit job in the off-season.

[SilverBullet]

32 minutes ago, SonOfJack said:

I get this mindset, but I have zero confidence in them to do anything to help the ball club at this point after their shit job in the off-season.

Agreed but as much as we joke that they wouldn't change a thing there's a point where it's so bad that they have no choice so it's like I'm wishing for that. It's like hey if we have to go on a 3 month losing streak then I'm for it. That's how bad the feeling is. Whatever it takes lol. Damn. 

[jsprt14]

What a bunch of morons they have running this team. I’m over this garbage.

Thanks for putting up with my BS over the years marlinsbaseball.

Edited May 10, 2022 by jsprt14

[hovertical]

13 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

Agreed but as much as we joke that they wouldn't change a thing there's a point where it's so bad that they have no choice so it's like I'm wishing for that. It's like hey if we have to go on a 3 month losing streak then I'm for it. That's how bad the feeling is. Whatever it takes lol. Damn. 

I kinda feel bad coming on here and being so negative all the time. I know there's a few seemingly eternal positive folks on here and that's truly an awesome thing. I wish i could be in that sort of headspace with the team.  We literally have an awful owner, awful GM, and awful manager.  I'm not sure how any team will be able to have sustained success with that group crippling every area of the organization. 

Ng is overmatched as a GM but man, if you fire her, there will be a shitstorm like no other saying it's unfair because of her gender. Granted NONE of those people complaining will have actually spent any time invested in watching the product she's assembled on the field - but you 100% KNOW that's exactly what will happen.  We're likely stuck with her for at LEAST another 2 years or whenever it is her contract ends.  The more I read the points people bring up on the Fire Ng thread, the more I see she has been pretty bad at her job. 

Donnie is...there are no words for what he is. I get the players who have been around the game seem to love him and he was fun to have in there during that 2020 run but man he just doesn't get it.  He just flat out doesn't understand how to use modern analytics at all and when you have a team operating on a shoestring budget you need to exploit every single matchup possible to get the most out of the team.  I love Donnie as a person but he is awful as a manager and should have been let go at the end of last season.

Sherman is just trash.  He's cheap and I could smell the cheapness on him within the first month of buying the team.  I was pretty pissed off then - resulting in my only ban on here after fighting with some supporters over their "vision" LOL. He has zero interest in building a great team or even a consistently above .500 team.  He's done nothing to dissuade me from the moment they took the reigns and it still holds true now.  Jeter fucked us over so hard by attaching himself to Sherman because that is the ONLY reason Sherman was selected to buy this team.

So yeah, I'm gonna apologize for being negative and down on this team and shit posting on here about mostly the same stuff over and over but I gotta post it somewhere because my wife will divorce me if I keep talking about it at home.  I'll never become a fan of another team though. I don't understand how people can be fickle with their allegiances and just one day truly love another team like they do the one they've so many years dedicated to.

Anyway, not 100% sure what this post was for.  I woke up at 3am and couldn't get back to sleep so I got online and wound up here as usual.  Apologies for being so negative.  Please know I want this team to succeed and win another series in my lifetime.  It's just crushing that the people responsible for it are blind. Have a good one ya'll.

 

 

[marlins_09]

2 hours ago, hovertical said:

Man I'd kill to have an actual manager who understands the value of using "advanced" metrics in managing a team. I say advanced only in the sense that it's more than just right/left matchups and pitch count, which, so far I can tell, is all Don does. Outside of Sunday's game I've already given up watching them this season again unless I have nothing else to do. I got better stuff to do than watch this team go down in flames and struggle all season long with an idiot for a manager and a brain dead GM. I do enjoy the game thread banter so I'll likely still post on there while I'm watching something else and y'all are bemoaning another Donnie special.

Same. This team isn’t going anywhere with Kim and Don as integral pieces of the org. I’m just waiting for that to change 

[hovertical]

7 minutes ago, marlins_09 said:

Same. This team isn’t going anywhere with Kim and Don as integral pieces of the org. I’m just waiting for that to change 

Sherman and Ng are probably just waiting for LaRussa to be fired lol

[Michael]

The most damning thing about this and all these one run losses was something that Kelly brought up mid game. The players seem to be fine with all of it because "they're in all the games" and it's simply a matter of "being one hit away." This was based on her comments regarding her chat with Miggy Ro before the game, so maybe just he feels that way, but man ... what happened to "there are no moral victories this year"? Somehow that ended up just being another Mish-tale?

I'm not OK with this.

[Entendu]

1 hour ago, hovertical said:

I kinda feel bad coming on here and being so negative all the time. I know there's a few seemingly eternal positive folks on here and that's truly an awesome thing. I wish i could be in that sort of headspace with the team.  We literally have an awful owner, awful GM, and awful manager.  I'm not sure how any team will be able to have sustained success with that group crippling every area of the organization. 

Ng is overmatched as a GM but man, if you fire her, there will be a shitstorm like no other saying it's unfair because of her gender. Granted NONE of those people complaining will have actually spent any time invested in watching the product she's assembled on the field - but you 100% KNOW that's exactly what will happen.  We're likely stuck with her for at LEAST another 2 years or whenever it is her contract ends.  The more I read the points people bring up on the Fire Ng thread, the more I see she has been pretty bad at her job. 

Donnie is...there are no words for what he is. I get the players who have been around the game seem to love him and he was fun to have in there during that 2020 run but man he just doesn't get it.  He just flat out doesn't understand how to use modern analytics at all and when you have a team operating on a shoestring budget you need to exploit every single matchup possible to get the most out of the team.  I love Donnie as a person but he is awful as a manager and should have been let go at the end of last season.

Sherman is just trash.  He's cheap and I could smell the cheapness on him within the first month of buying the team.  I was pretty pissed off then - resulting in my only ban on here after fighting with some supporters over their "vision" LOL. He has zero interest in building a great team or even a consistently above .500 team.  He's done nothing to dissuade me from the moment they took the reigns and it still holds true now.  Jeter fucked us over so hard by attaching himself to Sherman because that is the ONLY reason Sherman was selected to buy this team.

So yeah, I'm gonna apologize for being negative and down on this team and shit posting on here about mostly the same stuff over and over but I gotta post it somewhere because my wife will divorce me if I keep talking about it at home.  I'll never become a fan of another team though. I don't understand how people can be fickle with their allegiances and just one day truly love another team like they do the one they've so many years dedicated to.

Anyway, not 100% sure what this post was for.  I woke up at 3am and couldn't get back to sleep so I got online and wound up here as usual.  Apologies for being so negative.  Please know I want this team to succeed and win another series in my lifetime.  It's just crushing that the people responsible for it are blind. Have a good one ya'll.

 

 

Trust me, dude... Just stop watching. Check the scores and tune in early or when they're winning. It helps. It's just not healthy to deal with this day in and day out. I used to suffer for this team when I was a teenager and in my early twenties. Screw that.

 

[Entendu]

I'm almost not sure if mattingly should even go...... Had the Marlins presented him a juggernaut and he failed, then you can pin the blame on him and make the change. But there's a lot of blame to go around and I don't know if you can motivate a clubhouse by firing the manager when ownership themselves lack credibility. It's almost like so what? Are you going to fire yourself?

I think 2003 was different because the team was built to win. They made the big moves in the last two offseasons. This just seems like scapegoating and won't change anything.

[Michael]

9 minutes ago, Entendu said:

I'm almost not sure if mattingly should even go...... Had the Marlins presented him a juggernaut and he failed, then you can pin the blame on him and make the change. But there's a lot of blame to go around and I don't know if you can motivate a clubhouse by firing the manager when ownership themselves lack credibility. It's almost like so what? Are you going to fire yourself?

I think 2003 was different because the team was built to win. They made the big moves in the last two offseasons. This just seems like scapegoating and won't change anything.

There are a few games where you can point at Don and a scenario and say "we lost that game because this."

I'll agree it's not all on him. He isn't at the plate, not on the field, not on the mound. However he doesn't seem to be able to motivate these guys and will them to win. Need someone who can light a fire under them.

Shoot he rarely even sticks up for the players when they get angry on the field at balls and strikes. Coop got ejected in the 8-0 win and Don was like, "meh. That's BS but meh." That's a situation where he should have gone out there and yelled in the ump's face, especially since it was such a quick ejection of one of our better hitters. Show the guys you care!

[MarlinsLou]

Welcome to March anger yall. We knew this was going to be the storyline because they didn't get the 1-2 last bat upgrades.

However, some (most) of the anger is misdirected here IMO. Ng did not have a bad offseason except for 1 glaring thing - CF. That in itself is unforgivable as discussed daily (hourly?), but declaring complete incompetence is incorrect and an emotional reaction to an unbelievable stretch of 1 run losses combined with years of them sucking when we have glimmers of hope now with the SP. You can all bitch about this or that, but the fact remains the rotation is great short and longterm. The bullpen is good short and longterm. The farm is great short and longterm. They have a decent young hitting core (Jazz, Sanchez, and looks like Bleday, Burdick, and Lewin are turning into something), along with a suitable cast of reasonably priced veterans (despite backlash, the Garcia/Soler deals are cheap in modern baseball. They just seem expensive because the Marlins are so cheap. See below). They get a lot of credit for those things. They are really set up longterm. To note, it is too soon to tell on Garcia/Soler (50+ points under career BABIP) so everyone needs to chill on them big time even though Garcia's BB/K is atrocious and a major red flag it isn't starting to change as we approach mid May.

The problem is missing 1-2 key bats. Whose fault is that?

It's Sherman's fault mainly. If he gave the FO a reasonable budget ($110m), this would be a really complete team and a world series contender for sure. Effectively, that is adding Correa and upgraded bench pieces which seems like the total missing piece. Or cut some guys and add Castellanos as a pure luxury add. So we can criticize Ng for a few things, but she was also tasked with throwing a perfect game and that's an unreasonable ask for a FO. If Sherman told her (which I think we all agree he did - see Jeter) payroll will only go up slightly next few years, you can understand being more trigger-shy on the prospect trade for Reynolds/whoever knowing you can't buy help later to make up a difference if there is a problem. So they are stuck in perpetual limbo unless Bruce decides to be a bottom 20-25 owner versus a bottom 26-30 owner. That's the difference we're talking about here.

I said this opening day - this was an "A" offseason if they got a CF. They didn't so it's at best a C-, but that can all change very quickly if they make the move. However, this all flows back to Bruce where the organization has to be OK jettisoning two of their top 6 and two more of their top 12 prospects and get the CF/more bats.... where if they have a depth issues in the future because of those trades, they know they have money to be able to keep signing Wendle/Rojas/Aguilar/Garica/Cooper/Soler/Floro/Bleier level players to plug holes on shorter 2-3 year deals. Right now, I don't think they expect that money because Bruce is a cheapskate who won't invest in his business.

Don't get me wrong - Ng can be better. Don can be MUCH - MUCH - better and yes Ng kept him so blame flows to her there also, but at the end of the day the guys need to score more than 2-3 runs to win games and that's not Don's fault as he didn't pick the players. That's not Ng's fault alone if she was told $80m as it is virtually impossible to build a winning team on that budget. It's Bruce's fault for not being a real owner. If we're naming the top 5 culprits of this team, my list is:

1 - Bruce
2 - Sherman
3 - Bruce Sherman
4 - Mattingly
5 - Ng

No players. Owner being cheap for the last 3 players on the roster so they are missing, Don not knowing to throw Okert versus lefty hitters and opting for Bender (among other perplexing decisions), and Ng failing to creatively figure out CF/creating weird positional dis-alignment with Soler in LF, but I am sympathetic with Bruce (to an extent).

Nothing changes until Bruce decides to be a contender. I think Ng wouldn't have an issue if she was given a reasonable well below average budget.

They need to get over Tampa is NOT the model. It is for youth development, but you have to be able to sign players on top of it when you have the rest of the team together. Frankly, they have the rest of the team together right now.

[SongInTheAir]

12 minutes ago, Entendu said:

I'm almost not sure if mattingly should even go...... Had the Marlins presented him a juggernaut and he failed, then you can pin the blame on him and make the change. But there's a lot of blame to go around and I don't know if you can motivate a clubhouse by firing the manager when ownership themselves lack credibility. It's almost like so what? Are you going to fire yourself?

I think 2003 was different because the team was built to win. They made the big moves in the last two offseasons. This just seems like scapegoating and won't change anything.

I get your point here, but the team could have maybe 6 more wins (and in turn 6 fewer losses) if they had a good manager. The talent on this team isn't elite, but if they're put in positions to win, they can win. We just happen to have a manager who makes things even harder, and not quite enough talent to overcome him. 

[MarlinsLou]

3 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

I'm at the point where I feel like I'm rooting for more losses hoping it leads to changes. 

A dystopian view of the season is interesting, because if they get to the deadline and can trade say.... Pablo, Anderson, Hernandez, Aguilar, Floro, Bass, Bleier, Berti.... certainly they would get a MAJOR piece for Pablo, and pretty good ones for the rest of them. Especially if sent in packages. This could be another 8-10 really good players/prospects, which effectively can be used to go get the fucking CF already. Likewise, it shaves at least $10m on this season's payroll to reinvest (lol).

If they got rid of those guys, and kept all their prospects, 2023 is this for around $68 million.

Stallings, Henry/Fortes
Cooper, Lewin
Jazz
Wendle, Rojas
_______
Sanchez
_______
Garcia, Bleday
Soler (no opt out scenario)

Sandy, Luzardo, Meyer, Rogers, Cabrera
Bender, Sixto, Sulser, Poteet, Head/Holloway/Pop
Scott, Okert, _______

If we assume trading the horde of guys produces a longterm starter at CF for cheap, as well as another lefty reliever (both reasonable), it's effectively a $70 million dollar team and Carlos Correa (opt out), Xander Boegarts (opt out), and Trea Turner are the top 3 free agents. Sign any of them and if the CF is good, the team is great on paper. Ideally, Bleday can play some 1B as they've created a corner OF logjam but it is what it is.

Note - they've saved $10m on 2022 payroll here so this is even cheaper. And they have Eury/Eder likely coming fast, as well as probably a ton of bats.

Basically - they'd be in good shape and we're in exactly the same position as this winter. Are you going to get the star bat?

[SilverBullet]

45 minutes ago, Michael said:

The most damning thing about this and all these one run losses was something that Kelly brought up mid game. The players seem to be fine with all of it because "they're in all the games" and it's simply a matter of "being one hit away." This was based on her comments regarding her chat with Miggy Ro before the game, so maybe just he feels that way, but man ... what happened to "there are no moral victories this year"? Somehow that ended up just being another Mish-tale?

I'm not OK with this.

I thought of this too and there's 2 ways to interpret that take. 

It could mean they haven't given up hope and they're ok because they know they're still in these games as opposed to being deflated by one sided losses. It doesn't necessarily mean they're ok with losing. 

[Michael]

6 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

I thought of this too and there's 2 ways to interpret that take. 

It could mean they haven't given up hope and they're ok because they know they're still in these games as opposed to being deflated by one sided losses. It doesn't necessarily mean they're ok with losing. 

That's fair and the positive way to look at it, certainly.

[SilverBullet]

Honestly Kim and Sherman need to think of it this way too. That this team is basically one or two smart moves away from being good. Make the damn moves already. The lack of urgency that took me out of it last May is showing up again this May. Decent April puts us in the hunt, struggles in May that aren't addressed will put us in a hole that we can't get out of. Why wait until you're at the bottom of the hole before trying to get out?

[hovertical]

18 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

Honestly Kim and Sherman need to think of it this way too. That this team is basically one or two smart moves away from being good. Make the damn moves already. The lack of urgency that took me out of it last May is showing up again this May. Decent April puts us in the hunt, struggles in May that aren't addressed will put us in a hole that we can't get out of. Why wait until you're at the bottom of the hole before trying to get out?

It's like they don't realize that you can make deals well before the trade deadline to get the most out of your trade. Both our GM and manager seem to only function on the most rudimentary data and concepts.

[CyggyMarlin]

16 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

Honestly Kim and Sherman need to think of it this way too. That this team is basically one or two smart moves away from being good. 

And we're back to the 2 hitters away routine.  Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

 

This 1 run loss "culture of losing" is their identity now and it's aggravating.

 

I agree with the complete lack of urgency.  Max should be up already.  Change is needed in many ways.  Not happening.  Poorly run organization from Sherman to Ng to Mattingly.

 

It's toxic.

 

I'm tired.

 

 

[CyggyMarlin]

We knew the offense would be a problem.  10 out of 16 losses are by 1 run.  A better offense would have flipped a few of those games and this team would be over .500 right now.  Some of the blame can be attributed to Don with his shifts, line-up construction and bullpen management, some of it is Ng for not being able to multi-task and fill team needs, and some is on cheapskate Sherman who vowed to spend money yet top prospects stay down because of service time and this idiotic team philosophy of hoarding players to avoid spending on elite top players....

[MarlinsLou]

1 hour ago, SilverBullet said:

Honestly Kim and Sherman need to think of it this way too. That this team is basically one or two smart moves away from being good. Make the damn moves already. The lack of urgency that took me out of it last May is showing up again this May. Decent April puts us in the hunt, struggles in May that aren't addressed will put us in a hole that we can't get out of. Why wait until you're at the bottom of the hole before trying to get out?

And all of this was readily apparent in March.

After 4 full seasons of a rebuild with league low payrolls, with 15+ guys on the roster going to be club controlled/minimum for years, refusing to trade 2-4 top prospects (out of 10-12) to enhance the current team, refusing to spend bottom 22-24th in payroll versus bottom 26th, worrying about 2026-2028 service time when your product on the field flounders. It's a vision of cheapness across the board.

This is why I haven't watched a game this year (and am still annoyed by box scores so welcome to the club everyone!). They don't deserve to be rewarded until they care. It starts from the top - Sherman gives the FO a $110m budget (what Milwaukee spends, low 20s in overall payroll, a much smaller market than Miami) and I bet on-field and Ng issues disappear. Dropping Correa/Turner/Xander/Arenado (next year's major bat FA) on this team will solve things really fucking quickly along with the inevitable CF trade (which can be a cheap player!!!!). Mattingly is still a problem but that can be fixed.

If you build it they will come Bruce. Marlins fans have been begging about this since 2005 when Loria wouldn't give Miguel Fucking Cabrera an arbitration buyout similar to Hank Blaylock at the time. Look at the Florida Panthers - invest in your fucking product and don't expect the FO to hit gold on all 10 moves at the same time. Sustained commitment to the team. You might lose some money will you build your customer base, but you know, that's every company Bruce. Wake up.

[CyggyMarlin]

Things can be fixed, but there needs to be some urgency about it.  I said it before that Torborg was fired May 12th, 2003.  That team turned it around and won it all.   Changes need to happen NOW...

 

Don't get me wrong, I was happy the Marlins made playoffs in 2020, but it was short-season fluke.... I seriously wonder if the FO thinks this team is "Close" because of it and it is affecting the way they are building this team if that makes sense....

[Iowa]

Why did I spend for the whole year of MLB.tv instead of going monthly