Miami to make pitch on stadium

Consultants will offer Miami commissioners options for creating a baseball facility at the Orange Bowl, but no plan to finance the project.

By CAROLYN SALAZAR

csalazar@herald.com

 

The city of Miami today will deliver what could be its last pitch in trying to lure the Florida Marlins, but its options don't address the project's biggest quandary: How the stadium will be financed.

 

A team of city consultants, from Wisconsin-based Hammes Co., will lay out three alternatives at today's commission meeting: retrofitting the city-owned Orange Bowl for baseball, building a new ballpark alongside the Orange Bowl, or simply continuing with existing plans to renovate it for its current tenant, the University of Miami football team, and for soccer.

 

Cost estimates for the options were not available.

 

The success of either of the baseball options hinges on whether they will attract Major League Baseball and the Marlins, which have remained mum on the issue for weeks.

 

Still uncertain is whether the Marlins will agree to give up on one key demand not offered by the proposal: a retractable roof to protect fans against soggy weather.

 

The options also would affect UM, because the city would have to shut down the stadium for a year for renovations. UM officials have declined to comment.

 

ORANGE BOWL

 

Even if the Marlins and UM agree on an Orange Bowl proposal, some city officials say talks will go nowhere without a financing plan.

 

Only Miami-Dade County has committed money toward the stadium, and the Marlins have said they would kick in $137 million -- but the money would be paid over a 40-year period. City officials fear taxpayers would be left footing the bill if the Marlins move or dissolve.

 

The team has until March 15 to come up with a financing plan.

 

FINANCING CRUCIAL

 

City Commissioner Johnny Winton said that he hopes this is the city's last stadium analysis and that people realize there will be no ballpark without adequate financing.

 

''The fact remains, there is no money,'' Winton said.

 

Winton contends the money can come only from two sources: Major League Baseball or the private sector. MLB has not committed any money toward the stadium.

 

''There is no money for a single-purpose stadium -- end of story,'' Winton said. ``All Major League Baseball has done is demand, demand, demand.''

 

Marlins officials would not comment.

 

Even City Manager Joe Arriola, who commissioned the Orange Bowl study last month, said this week that the proposal is not a panacea for stadium negotiations.

 

''Is it perfect? I know it's not perfect,'' he told The Herald.

 

``I know it is not even that great. I'm only offering them what we can do.''

 

Miami-Dade County officials, who last month said they might seek new partners on the Marlins deal, said they were waiting to see if the Marlins agree to the Orange Bowl deal.

 

''Right now, we are sitting back and seeing what the city comes up with and what the Marlins come up with,'' said Lynn Norman-Teck, spokeswoman for County Mayor Alex Penelas.

 

To Miami officials, the Orange Bowl site is the most appealing because the city was already planning to spend between $90 million to $100 million to renovate the 66-year-old stadium.

 

CHEAPER PLAN

 

So converting it into a baseball stadium would be cheaper than building a new park, which the Marlins have said would cost $325 million.

 

Historically, baseball/football stadiums have been unattractive to both sports because when their seasons overlap, football players are forced to play on dirt from the baseball infield and baseball teams play in smaller fields.

 

But city leaders probably will not support spending millions of taxpayer dollars on a new stadium -- especially since many critics say AmericanAirlines Arena and the Miami Arena have been money-draining failures.

 

''We don't want to build another white elephant in the city of Miami,'' said Commissioner Joe Sanchez.

 

``And we just don't need another baseball stadium.''

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/7660886.htm

Guess Edcanes was right... Now Pubes you can stfu :w00t ... Good Job Edcanes :thumbup

does anyone know if today's meeting is open to comments from the public?

does anyone know if today's meeting is open to comments from the public?

 

It's an item on the agenda and as such the chair will decide whether to seek public comment beyond the scheduled speakers. BTW, it's set for 3pm but not a "time certain" item so it could be pushed back depending on how discussion of other items goes.

 

Since I live in Miami Beach and not Miami I won't be able to watch it so if anyone who has cable (in Miami) watches I hope you'll take copious notes and let us know how it goes.

``And we just don't need another baseball stadium.''

 

Where's the other one?

Im guessing hes saying the other one is on Dan Marino Blvd. If you look at this objectively, you can definitely see where they are coming from. Every time public funds have been used to build a stadium-Miami Arena, AA Arena, OD Center, it has turned into a total drain. I just hope something can be worked out before its too late.

Im guessing hes saying the other one is on Dan Marino Blvd. If you look at this objectively, you can definitely see where they are coming from. Every time public funds have been used to build a stadium-Miami Arena, AA Arena, OD Center, it has turned into a total drain. I just hope something can be worked out before its too late.

 

I agree. Counting on a city like Miami, with it's precarious financial situation, for economic support for a stadium was a fool's errand in the first place. The City has neither the resources nor a piece of land (except perhaps Bi-Centennial Park which would require enormous infrastructure retrofitting and which the Herald has guarded with zealously for the "kind" of projects they feel should be located there) that could be easily developed for this use. Soaring property values in downtown make a downtown poject almost impossible.

 

The weight of a new stadium has to fall on the county which is in control of property that could be developed for this purpose if the electorate is willing to go along.

 

The problem is history and specifically the Miami Arena which was doomed once the Huizenga clan took control of it. If the Panthers were still playing there and was not the cash drain that it is, regardless of whether the Heat were still tenants or not, the Marlins would stand a much better chance. But let's face it, that's not the case, we are where we are.

 

You have to know Huizenga does not want a new stadium built for a myriad of reasons and has been lobbying against it since day one. There is nothing Wayne would like more than to see the Marlins move away. And with the help of the Herald he's about to see his dream come true.

There is nothing Wayne would like more than to see the Marlins move away. And with the help of the Herald he's about to see his dream come true.

 

I agree with everything you said except this one line....why would Wayne want the Marlins to move away? it seems that any action he takes against a new stadium would be because he would want them to stay, but stay in PPS. I don't think he hates the Marlins and wants to see them leave; i think he has the Marlins right where he wants them, and wants them to stay and keep paying him money.

There is nothing Wayne would like more than to see the Marlins move away. And with the help of the Herald he's about to see his dream come true.

 

I agree with everything you said except this one line....why would Wayne want the Marlins to move away? it seems that any action he takes against a new stadium would be because he would want them to stay, but stay in PPS. I don't think he hates the Marlins and wants to see them leave; i think he has the Marlins right where he wants them, and wants them to stay and keep paying him money.

I don't think nor did I say he "hates" the Marlins, he is purely driven by his need to control every possible sports entertainment dollar in the market. I don't think Wayne is evil or wretched in fact I believe he is probably a terrific guy who has prospered by maximizing his market share in whatever business he has been in.

 

Every time the Marlins sell a season ticket package those are sports entertainment dollars that won't be used for football. Those dollars finite. If company X buys a block of 20 season tickets they will be less likely to spend money on football.

 

The NFL has a policy of being single tenants in their stadiums, its part of their business plan. He's just following on what ever other NFL owner is doing.

I don't think nor did I say he "hates" the Marlins, he is purely driven by his need to control every possible sports entertainment dollar in the market. I don't think Wayne is evil or wretched in fact I believe he is probably a terrific guy who has prospered by maximizing his market share in whatever business he has been in.

 

Every time the Marlins sell a season ticket package those are sports entertainment dollars that won't be used for football. Those dollars finite. If company X buys a block of 20 season tickets they will be less likely to spend money on football.

 

The NFL has a policy of being single tenants in their stadiums, its part of their business plan. He's just following on what ever other NFL owner is doing.

 

ok, maybe i shouldn't have used the word "hate", but the crux of my point is that it's actually fiscally irresponsible for Wayne to actively make moves that push the Marlins out of his stadium, wouldn't you think? Why has the notion of re-negotiating the lease with the current stadium ever come into consideration? Wouldn't you think, now that the writing is on the wall and the Marlins are clearly ready to do anything to get out of PPS, that Wayne would realize that he could renegotiate the lease and still get some money from the Fish, or watch them leave and get nothing at all? it seems that his best case scenario is the Marlins playing in PPS, not the Marlins forced to leave entirely.

I'll give you answer but I don't think it's the one you want.

 

First, management of the facility is significantly less if the sole use is football and the 10 or so games played in a season versus adding on another 162 games for baseball. From the top down, from executive management to kids parking cars there are myriad of costs that are borne because of baseball. Add on upkeep, wear and tear, etc. and baseball adds a lot to the cost of running the facility. Without baseball the facility can be virtually closed down and a tremendous amount of costs disappear.

 

Second, the PPS/Huizenga entity has adamantly refused to renegotiate the terms of their lease to the Marlins for baseball operations. It is not in their nor their league's interest to share the facility (see previous post). Yes, they make a profit on the Marlins and yes those dollars are helpful but they come at the expense of diluting the sports entertainment market which is not in the best interest of the Dolphins and their ticket sales.

 

Let's say baseball really took off in South Florida and the Marlins were drawing 35,000 fans a night. That's (give or take using $20 a ticket on average) roughly $57,000,000 in ticket sales (and probably another $50,000,000 in ancilliary purchases - food and drink, concessions, etc.) that's being sucked out of a finite number of sports entertainment dollars and could mean the Dolphins, especially if they continue to be the woeful team that they are, stop selling out. This is truly a zero sum game. In order for the Dolphins to be econimically viable (ala BFI or Republic Waste or Blockbuster) they must continue to be the pre-eminiment sports entity in this market.

 

I happen to agree that what's best for the Dolphins/Huizenga is for the Marlins to stay and pay him rent, but not increase their ticket sales dramatically. As long as the Marlins stay a distant second to the Dolphins in the hearts and minds of sports fans in South Florida it would be in the Dolphin's best interest to keep them there. But for the Marlins that is an untenable situation. Sooner or later they need, for their own economic survival, to become profitable and be able to reinvest in their franchise. David Samason calculated last year that in order to make a profit and keep last season's team together for 2004 they would have to sell 72,000 tickets a night (more than there are seats in PPS) to break-even. That's how lopsided is their lease.

 

In the end the Dolphins are better off without the Marlins in this market.

H-Bomb has got to realize that he needs the Marlins to keep paying his rent so HE can pay for JRS. In fact, if the Marlins break free of the lease and H-Bomb, and get their own venue generating revenue, the financial responsibility of the Dolphins and H-Bomb goes up. They would have a lot of problems with JRS and keeping that place running. He will then threaten for aid from, you guessed it, local govt. They all know this. Right now, the Marlins have little choice because they cant expect to get their own stadium along with the Dolphins having their own. The cost is just too much.

 

If the Marlins have any chance of a baseball-only stadium, they are going to have to leave Dade County.

H-Bomb has got to realize that he needs the Marlins to keep paying his rent so HE can pay for JRS. In fact, if the Marlins break free of the lease and H-Bomb, and get their own venue generating revenue, the financial responsibility of the Dolphins and H-Bomb goes up. They would have a lot of problems with JRS and keeping that place running. He will then threaten for aid from, you guessed it, local govt. They all know this. Right now, the Marlins have little choice because they cant expect to get their own stadium along with the Dolphins having their own. The cost is just too much.

 

If the Marlins have any chance of a baseball-only stadium, they are going to have to leave Dade County.

 

You have to remember that Joe Robbie built the stadium with his own money. When WH bought the franchise he bought the stadium and took over the existing lease that Robbie had signed with the county. The only payments to the county are for leasing the land under the stadium (and the core parking areas that surround it). Huizenga's holdings own much of the surrounding properties (used for satellite parking) outright and the land lease was negotiated many years ago and by today's standards is minimal.

H-Bomb has got to realize that he needs the Marlins to keep paying his rent so HE can pay for JRS.? In fact, if the Marlins break free of the lease and H-Bomb, and get their own venue generating revenue, the financial responsibility of the Dolphins and H-Bomb goes up.? They would have a lot of problems with JRS and keeping that place running.? He will then threaten for aid from, you guessed it, local govt.? They all know this.? Right now, the Marlins have little choice because they cant expect to get their own stadium along with the Dolphins having their own.? The cost is just too much.

 

If the Marlins have any chance of a baseball-only stadium, they are going to have to leave Dade County.

 

You have to remember that Joe Robbie built the stadium with his own money. When WH bought the franchise he bought the stadium and took over the existing lease that Robbie had signed with the county. The only payments to the county are for leasing the land under the stadium (and the core parking areas that surround it). Huizenga's holdings own much of the surrounding properties (used for satellite parking) outright and the land lease was negotiated many years ago and by today's standards is minimal. So then, he doesnt need the Marlins as tenants? I find that hard to believe - because without their money, he could not pay for those expenses you mentioned - or at least they would cut into his profits.

 

And if that is the case with JRS, then the Marlins would have to find a similar situation with their new digs in order to be able to afford the upkeep. This is why it is important for the City/County to give them land to keep. Truthfully, the OB is their best deal and is viable. I would suggest that the renovated facilty have the option to 'upgrade' with a retractable roof or dome in the future.

I know you don't believe it but it's true. The Dolphins don't "need" the Marlins to pay their "rent" to the county. I'm hestitant to quote a number without researching again it but I remember seeing the number and saying "OMG, is that all?" but then I remembered the deal was done almost twenty years ago. He only paid $138 million (much of which is a tax-exempt bond guarantee) for the team, the stadium and the land lease, which by today's standards is a bargain. The franchise is easily worth treble that number today.

 

Perhaps I could have been clearer but I'll try again. If the stadium were not open during the summer it would allow management to cut back significantly on staffing and upkeep costs since the facility would only be open from roughly late August - the end of December (maybe later if they ever make the playoffs).

 

Maybe Ross or someone else has the (Dolphins land lease) rent figure at hand, I don't have the time to look it up today. But believe me it's not alot for the Dolphins to manage.

There is nothing Wayne would like more than to see the Marlins move away. And with the help of the Herald he's about to see his dream come true.

 

I agree with everything you said except this one line....why would Wayne want the Marlins to move away? it seems that any action he takes against a new stadium would be because he would want them to stay, but stay in PPS. I don't think he hates the Marlins and wants to see them leave; i think he has the Marlins right where he wants them, and wants them to stay and keep paying him money. Exactly. Money talks, baby. :thumbdown

? I don't think Wayne is evil or wretched in fact I believe he is probably a terrific guy who has prospered by maximizing his market share in whatever business he has been in.

 

Every time I think of Wayne I think of the line from that Rodney Dangerfield movie "Back to School" . . .

 

"And then there's the matter of waste management. I don't know if you're familiar with the people who run that business, but I assure you it is NOT the Boy Scouts." :whistle

If the Dolphins were really concerned about what to do with JRS during the summer months, I think hosting international soccer events would be better from their standpoint than 81 baseball games. I'm not talking about the usual matchup involving Central American teams but the big clubs like Real Madrid and Manchester United. A couple of exhibition matches involving those clubs could easily sell 60,000 tickets. Since they could only have to host 2, 3 or 4 of these, they wouldn't have to pay much in maintenance. The field is sure wide enough to host soccer matches.

 

If/when the Marlins move out, JRS/Dolphins should get going and invite international soccer in.

Only Miami-Dade County has committed money toward the stadium, and the Marlins have said they would kick in $137 million -- but the money would be paid over a 40-year period. City officials fear taxpayers would be left footing the bill if the Marlins move or dissolve.

 

That is a bogus concern, that is why you sign a lease for long term like St. Pete did with the D-Rays and if the team folds or moves, MLB must either pay the remainder of the lease or award another franchise like in Seattle.

If the roof is so important, get a dome.

 

You can make more money with a dome by attracting NCAA Final Fours like Tampa did and renting it for large indoor concerts like the D-Rays do.

If the Dolphins were really concerned about what to do with JRS during the summer months, I think hosting international soccer events would be better from their standpoint than 81 baseball games. I'm not talking about the usual matchup involving Central American teams but the big clubs like Real Madrid and Manchester United. A couple of exhibition matches involving those clubs could easily sell 60,000 tickets. Since they could only have to host 2, 3 or 4 of these, they wouldn't have to pay much in maintenance. The field is sure wide enough to host soccer matches.

 

If/when the Marlins move out, JRS/Dolphins should get going and invite international soccer in.

Nah, soccer sucks.

Only Miami-Dade County has committed money toward the stadium, and the Marlins have said they would kick in $137 million -- but the money would be paid over a 40-year period. City officials fear taxpayers would be left footing the bill if the Marlins move or dissolve.

 

That is a bogus concern, that is why you sign a lease for long term like St. Pete did with the D-Rays and if the team folds or moves, MLB must either pay the remainder of the lease or award another franchise like in Seattle. unfortunately, MLB refuses to insure the marlins' $137M. if the marlins fold, the city is left footing the bill.

I know you don't believe it but it's true. The Dolphins don't "need" the Marlins to pay their "rent" to the county. I'm hestitant to quote a number without researching again it but I remember seeing the number and saying "OMG, is that all?" but then I remembered the deal was done almost twenty years ago. He only paid $138 million (much of which is a tax-exempt bond guarantee) for the team, the stadium and the land lease, which by today's standards is a bargain. The franchise is easily worth treble that number today.

 

Perhaps I could have been clearer but I'll try again. If the stadium were not open during the summer it would allow management to cut back significantly on staffing and upkeep costs since the facility would only be open from roughly late August - the end of December (maybe later if they ever make the playoffs).

 

Maybe Ross or someone else has the (Dolphins land lease) rent figure at hand, I don't have the time to look it up today. But believe me it's not alot for the Dolphins to manage.

No, I understand your post very well. It was made clear (on a post above that seemed to fall in after our correspondences, but listed before them - weird).

 

As I undertstand you, the cost of hosting baseball games at JRS is significantly higher than football because of the amount of games played - 81 vs. 8. True - there is more production cost that would go into a baseball season vs. a football season - or so it seems. I dont truly know, but I am just following your logic.

 

That said, it is not like the Marlins cannot foot their own bill for the cost of running the stadium during their season. This is not a case of paying for your share of the costs, rather about revenue. It is a fact that H-Bomb continues to rape (thanks, John Henry) the Marlins of their revenue. The cost may be higher, but the Marlins can afford to pay for their own expenses - it isnt like H-Bomb is taking the money the Marlins generate for him and with a halo over his head, paying for their expenses and getting NO PROFIT out of it. If you think that is the case, you are sadly mistaken.

 

It is a FACT that H-Bomb is profitting off of the Marlins as a tenant. THis is not a charity case and I fail to see the logic of that nor how that could even be possible. H-Bomb is not doing any favors here. So although I agree with your argument, it fails to address the issue of the Marlins needing to be freed of a terrible, dare I say criminal, lease and need a venue of their own in order to get that possibility. Or at least have a real living deal on the table which could at the very least be used as leverage in any future negotiations with H-Bomb and the JRS facilities.

 

H-Bomb is making a profit with the Marlins as tenants. He doesnt want the Marlins to get their own facility because a) he loses revenue by losing a tenant and b) he loses out on possible future profit because the Marlins will have the revenue in place to support an excellent franchise which cuts into his market and fan base.

 

In short, the Marlins and a new, independent facility threaten H-Bomb and his situation as 'fat cat' in Miami sports. So it is to his benefit that he keeps them at JRS and shackled to a terrible lease. Keeping the Marlins from getting any hope of a new facility only strengthens his negotiating stance in any lease and should the Marlins leave (it would be because of him in part) he would be absolved of any blame.

Guess Edcanes was right... Now Pubes you can stfu :w00t ... Good Job Edcanes :thumbup

Consultants will offer Miami commissioners options for creating a baseball facility at the Orange Bowl, but no plan to finance the project.

 

 

edcanes said a deal was done. w.o. financing then doesnt matter what plans they put up.

 

this same news. still no final deal been reached.

 

and i changed my thing of the edcanes. i thought he said vlad was commin teh 8th but i was confused. still ed is not reliable sinc ei been here dood. just fact.

City comissioners splurge. Plan for football and baseball stadiums.

 

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/7664208.htm

Miami city commissioners on Thursday unanimously endorsed a proposal for a Florida Marlins ballpark attached to a substantially rebuilt Orange Bowl, at a cost estimated at $375 million.

 

The commission told City Manager Joe Arriola to bring the proposal to the Marlins. He said he would meet with a team executive Thursday evening.

 

Under the proposal presented by city consultants, the two facilities, joined on the southern side of the Orange Bowl, would share premium seating towers. Although they would not have the retractable roof that the Marlins have always said was a requirement for a new stadium, they would be ''roof ready,'' so one could be added in the future.

 

The Orange Bowl would continue to be used for University of Miami football, but would be substantially rebuilt, with its seating reduced from 80,000 to 60,000-65,000. The ballpark would seat 35,000 to 40,000.

 

It's still unclear whether the Marlins will be interested in the plan. The team has declined comment for weeks.

 

The commission rejected a second option presented by the consultants, Wisconsin-based Hammes Company, that would have retrofitted the Orange Bowl into a facility for both football and baseball at a cost of $220 million to $240 million.

 

Neither option included a financing plan.