hardw0od

The lineup is filled with guys that hit for average and will put the ball in play. A lot of professional hitters on the team. I don't really see us getting shutout a ton, however, I don't see the team driving in a lot of runs either.

Tommy and Lenny were my favorites. Rich has been ok, but Len Kaspar was awesome.

I think that Ruggiano's number are inflated. The number of wins for the SP's seem a bit high. Honestly I can see one MAYBE two pitchers hitting double-digit wins. I don't think that Stanton will hit .324 with no protection behind him. I feel that he'll hit in the .280 range and 46 jacks feels about right if he gets pitched to. The overall record is a little optimistic, but not outside the realm of possibility. I feel that if they do everything right they'll get to 75 wins. Prediction: 63-99

To Summarize: 1. We agree that Loria is free to do whatever he see fits with his team and his money. 2. I like the accessibility of the old stadium, but do love the new stadium and its aesthetics 3. I believe that fans were coming back and felt that the growth was exponential; you did not. That's fine, we don't have to agree. With that being said I will attend a few games next year (1 or 2) and hope that this team is exciting and fun to watch. We shall see.

No, I can't refute your opinion, but I do suspect that you are stretching it a bit to try to salvage your argument. Either way, it has no merit. Your solitary preference for Sun Life over a brand new retractable roof stadium has no bearing whatsoever on the preferences of the collective body of Marlins fans. The new park is aesthetically much more pleasing and more comfortable. However, working in Broward, living in Kendall and making it to Little Havana for a 7:10 start with the traffic on the 836 is REALLY bad. Also, since I would sit behind homeplate at Sun Life, you had the opportunity to walk by the clubhouse and say hi to the players before the game, something that you can't do at the new park. If the stadium were in the same location where the football stadium is located I would be in heaven.

Exponential means that the figures begin to increase at an accelerating rate. The Marlins hit a wall in 2004 and 2005 (putting them close to the very bottom of MLB attendance) despite fielding competitive teams. The increase from 2002 to 2005 looks pretty insubstantial when you consider that they still were one of the worst drawing MLB teams. You need to stop thinking that attendance figures are satisfactory just because they were higher than they were in previous years. The bottom line is that 2004 and 2005 showed no real signs of further attendance growth. The revenue being offered by low fan turnout and the poor stadium lease made it impossible to keep the team intact. Loria was right to blow up the team after 2005. There was no reason to expect the fan turnout to expand beyond that 22-23k threshold for 2006. The core wasn't good enough to win and he couldn't spend more money on free agents because he was already in the red. Your problem is that you seem to be more impressed by the 2004 and 2005 attendance figures than you should be. They are an improvement, but the fact that they were still relatively terrible for MLB in general should give you some indication of how difficult it would be to keep an expensive team intact. Also remember that the Marlins had the worst stadium lease in MLB. That's fine. I agree with most of what you said. As a fan with a certain amount of disposable income I decided that I would cease to spend my money on tickets and only attend games occasionally after the 2006 firesale and stopped purchasing season tickets. Loria spoke with his pocketbook and I spoke with mine, as I will next year. The problem here is how not to alienate the lukewarm fans while continuing to grow your brand. A difficult task for sure, and one that he has not yet perfected. While I really love baseball it is hard for me to go and support a team that will struggle not to lose 100 games next year. I've diverted my entertainment funds to FIU sports, Miami Heat basketball and 2 USC Trojans games a year. I hope that the Marlins find a way to motivate fans once again. Since they are locked in for a few decades it would really suck to have them field terrible teams for the next 30 years.

Calling the 2012 attendance decent based on how it was in Sun Life is like saying "I earn a decent salary of 5 bucks an hour now" just because you were unemployed the previous years. I never compared the two. I said that last year's attendance was the highest since the inaugural year and I said that our attendnace was decent IMO compared to our history with attendance. That's exactly what he's calling you out on. Playing in the football stadium had very little to do with attendance. In fact, I probably enjoyed the games more in Sun Life than in Marlins Park. Sure, the sight lines are much better in the new stadium but I really enjoyed the old stadium . It was easier to get to, parking was easier, less traffic, etc. I would suspect that most fans would disagree with you and that the Marlins market research would verify this disagreement to be accurate. Which part? Stadium accessibility or stadium enjoyment? Again, I personally enjoyed the other stadium. You cannot refute my opinion. I found the new stadium to be a nightmare to get to and park in. I attended 5 games last year and each time it was bad with the exception of the one time that I took the Metrorail.

Calling the 2012 attendance decent based on how it was in Sun Life is like saying "I earn a decent salary of 5 bucks an hour now" just because you were unemployed the previous years. I never compared the two. I said that last year's attendance was the highest since the inaugural year and I said that our attendnace was decent IMO compared to our history with attendance. That's exactly what he's calling you out on. Playing in the football stadium had very little to do with attendance. In fact, I probably enjoyed the games more in Sun Life than in Marlins Park. Sure, the sight lines are much better in the new stadium but I really enjoyed the old stadium . It was easier to get to, parking was easier, less traffic, etc.

You're using rank vs. raw numbers. Paid attendance increased exponentially over that period of time. Maybe it was MLB in general, but it did show that slowly but surely the Marlins were winning the fans again. I was a season ticked holder from 2002 -2005, so the team back then really inspired me to spend money on them. I have never been a season ticket holder since. But the raw numbers do not show an "exponential" increase by any means. They show a pretty tepid increase, actually. The Marlins averaged only 22,800 fans in 2005. That was for a team that just won the Series in 03, kept most of its core intact, signed Carlos Delgado, and was projected to be a legit contender. The team ultimately fizzled out in the end, but that doesn't make the numbers less disappointing. Loria had given them a reason to come, but they didn't turn up. That's what largely motivated the 2005 firesale. He was expecting more revenues from fan turnout. The increase you saw from 2003 to 2005 was not satisfactory in the slightest. Going from 10,000 fans a night to 23,000 is not exponential? Speaking strictly on this team and this city, that is not a big jump? It's more than double the attendance. Yes they signed Delgado, but ditched Pudge (a fan favorite) after 2003. We can go back and forth forever. The fans slowly started coming back to see the team. Again, in the grand scheme of things the attendance was not great and please don't misinterpret what I am saying. What I'd like to know is what the difference was between the 1997 edition of the Marlins that had 29,500 and the teams that came after. People supported that team and there is definitely passion for the game of baseball here. What can be done to have attendance at those levels again? I know that for me, personally, the 2006 firesale left a sour taste in my mouth and I never purchase season tickets again. I still continue to buy single game tickets and continue to go to games.

Miami reacts to baseball like I react to basketball: The first 3 1/2 Quarters (season) are irrelevant, show me the last 5 minutes of the fourth. This +1

Calling the 2012 attendance decent based on how it was in Sun Life is like saying "I earn a decent salary of 5 bucks an hour now" just because you were unemployed the previous years. I never compared the two. I said that last year's attendance was the highest since the inaugural year and I said that our attendnace was decent IMO compared to our history with attendance.

It seems illogical to me to claim that the Marlins' 2012 attendance was "decent" by simply comparing the figures to those of the sh*tty, low-payroll Marlins teams that played in the soggy football stadium. A lot of people on this board have done it too. I'd also say that the 2004 and 2005 seasons had pretty disappointing attendance turnouts under the circumstances at the time (right after a World Series win and a respectable core of players intact). It was poor compared to other MLB teams' you're right, however, attendance increased by 1 Million + fans from 2002 - 2005. Again, when compared to other MLB teams total attendance was bad, but that increase was nothing to sneeze at. Comparing attendance figures to rock-bottom circumstances (bad teams, low payroll, football stadium) does not mean that the 2012 figures are satisfactory even if there was a considerable increase from rock bottom. In fact, the attendance figures in 2012 were far below what the Marlins claimed to have projected. Your logic here is way off. No, my comparison was only between the 2002 - 2005 editions of the team that played at the football stadium. The 2012 attendance was a separate issue. I was just showing that fans did come out (somewhat) to support the Marlins between that period of time. Attendance steadily grew over that period of time. When it comes to fans in Miami we need to be realistic with our expectations. I get that. I'm saying that if you look at the numbers, I don't see how you can arrive at your conclusion. The fans did not come out in those years. 2002: 29th in MLB 2003: 28th 2004: 26th 2005: 28th Even in a football stadium, those numbers are pretty embarrassing. You're using rank vs. raw numbers. Paid attendance increased exponentially over that period of time. Maybe it was MLB in general, but it did show that slowly but surely the Marlins were winning the fans again. I was a season ticked holder from 2002 -2005, so the team back then really inspired me to spend money on them. I have never been a season ticket holder since.

The Marlins projected 81 sellouts. Their logic was quite illogical considering the city they play in. No, they didn't. They projected around 34,500. That was an overestimation ultimately, but that's besides the point. They lost money because attendance wasn't "decent" enough in terms of their expectations. I kept seeing that they projected 3 Million fans in the first year, which would equal 81 sellouts. If 34,500 was their projection the please forgive me as I did not know that.

You can nitpick my choice of the word "decent" if you want. I was just using the word considering it was the highest number of tickets sold since the inaugural year. Why does this fact make attendance "decent?" It suggests a marginal improvement in relative terms (an improvement from rock bottom), but those attendance figures were not satisfactory in the end. Again, you keep harping on an adjective I used. Considering our history I believe it was decent. I'm sure no one in the front office will concur, but it's just my opinion.

It seems illogical to me to claim that the Marlins' 2012 attendance was "decent" by simply comparing the figures to those of the sh*tty, low-payroll Marlins teams that played in the soggy football stadium. A lot of people on this board have done it too. I'd also say that the 2004 and 2005 seasons had pretty disappointing attendance turnouts under the circumstances at the time (right after a World Series win and a respectable core of players intact). It was poor compared to other MLB teams' you're right, however, attendance increased by 1 Million + fans from 2002 - 2005. Again, when compared to other MLB teams total attendance was bad, but that increase was nothing to sneeze at. Comparing attendance figures to rock-bottom circumstances (bad teams, low payroll, football stadium) does not mean that the 2012 figures are satisfactory even if there was a considerable increase from rock bottom. In fact, the attendance figures in 2012 were far below what the Marlins claimed to have projected. Your logic here is way off. No, my comparison was only between the 2002 - 2005 editions of the team that played at the football stadium. The 2012 attendance was a separate issue. I was just showing that fans did come out (somewhat) to support the Marlins between that period of time. Attendance steadily grew over that period of time. When it comes to fans in Miami we need to be realistic with our expectations.