flguy435

While negotiations to cover cost overruns were continuing, with the city trying to orchestrate a way to assume control of the franchise by letting the project blow up in the Marlins' wallet. Who came to who with the ridiculous price tag? The Marlins knew the stadium was going to cost more than what they proposed, because in their plan they said it would cost $25 million less to build the actual stadium alone than what Henry proposed, despite the fact materials, labor, etc. all cost more. Yet despite all this Samson said the Marlins did plan to cover the cost over-runs. Now if he said that to the press and not in discussions, I am not certain. He also said the team would also have been WILLING to sign a lien if it came to that. Don't you think for a second that the last thing Miami-Dade wanted would be to have the Marlins sign the lien and stick them not only with the team, but the cost over-runs and a half paid for and completed stadium? It would go something like this: Miami-Dade officials: "Hey, you owe us $150 million." Marlins: "Sorry, don't got it." Miami-Dade: "But you promised." Marlins: "Sorry, don't got it. We can negotiate a settlement, but here, this team is all yours if you want it." Miami-Dade: "How are we going to run a major-league team? We can't even handle an airport. And how are we supposed to fund a $75 million payroll while we try to sell it? And what will happen to this ballpark if all the prospective buyers want to move?" Marlins: "Sorry, should have thought of that before you signed on." There hasn't been any progress because no municipality has come forward with funds to close the funding gap. Should other places be more or less interested now that the fans are completely alienated, and the product on the field basically stinks? Oh I know they should come forward so they could be... You have that wrong. The Marlins want to stay in South Florida and are seeking out cities other than Miami to use as leverage. Not the other way around. ... used as leverage. Shocking I know, but no city, not even Miami, wants to be used as leverage and the local cities can see through that veil. That a player lines out to end a 1-run game does not mean he lost the game for his team. It means he was unlucky at the worse possible time. More like stopped running halfway to first base after a problematic dribbler.

Of course that didn't last for long. From the start the Marlins had expressed their displeasure at the proposal for obvious reasons. The Marlins pressed for a better stadium, in which there would be a full set of suites and an adequate concessions arrangement (where all the kitchens, closets and holding centers wouldn't be on just one side) and greater shares of gameday revenues. This is when the city began seeking other sites, one of them adjacent to the Orange Bowl and known as simply the 'Orange Bowl site' for quite awhile in the press. And no, I wouldn't call that backing out of a deal from the Marlins. I would call that negotiating. Backing out of a deal is trying to destroy your partner is turning our back on an agreed-on principle or by requesting provisions that would lead to them relinquishing control of the greatest fixed asset, which is what the city of Miami attempted to do to the Marlins. Also, I didn't say there hasn't been any progress since 2002. I said that there hasn't been progress in 2 years, when the Marlins were still attempting to make amends with the fan base and city by investing in a competitive franchise, offering exciting promotions and putting up billboards across town and at bus stations. I said for 15 years South Florida has known that someone (MLB) with power to change direction of the franchise wanted a new stadium and 10 years ago to this very day, someone directly connected to the franchise has been requesting a new stadium What killed the Marlins' hopes in S. Fla? Was it not the state failing to give them the tax rebate and then neither the city nor the team wanting to fund that game the state left? Like I said as bad as you say the deal was, if the tax rebate went through the Marlins were going to have a very hard time turning that down, but by the way you characterize the deal you make it sound like they would have said no anyway. Also you are faulting the county and city for walking away from the deal after countless amount of Marlins' self imposed deadlines, after the Marlins said they had no intrest in it anymore. And then you complain there hasn't been any progress in the last 2 years. What a shock, why wouldn't there be? Maybe because in the last 2 years the Marlins have met with city after city, and Miami-Dade had no intrest in being used as leverage for the Marlins. If the deal was left on the table Loria and Co. could go to these other cities and say "Hey Miami is offering us X, you need to do better." Not to mention it was Miami's way of protecting itself. There is no way they see the franchise right now worth the offer they were given a couple years ago now. Loria was the closest in those 10 years and he let the chance squander away.

Earmarked funds for renovation of the Orange Bowl for a private university's football team. They didn't offer anything to the Marlins. They told them we'll take our contribution and yours and build a substandard stadium for you with much the same poor lease terms as you have at Dolphins Stadium. Revenue from suites and parking were going to be constrained and a high lease (to cover costs of stadium). That's not a fair offer. But you said they were trying to get the Marlins' to use their funds to help renovation of the Orange Bowl, and at least the Herald says no it was public funds that was bookmarked for that, and I think they still are. You also say Loria never made any progress down here in recent years. Yet it got to a point where there was a number on the table, and to a point where the Marlins were able to tell the city and state no for a change, versus the other way around. That is progess. It might end the same, but it is progress, yet you contest that. The parking garage was going to pay for itself. And if it was such a bad offer why did the deal go as far as it did? If the state OK'd the tax rebate all signs pointed to the deal going through. For Loria being such the great business man, and not wanting to lose money, why do you think they let a deal that you contest was horrible for him and the team, get so far that the thing that made it fail was the state and not the city or county?

Of course flyguy edits the stories in such a way as to be as incomplete as possible and offers an unreachable link as his evidence. http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:D6Umu7...lient=firefox-a For the hard of Googling ones out there. Don't hurt your head too much. You forget that Miami constantly backed out the deal. They tried to ahve them pay for the Canes' stadium. Your point?!? Once again, you're not making any sense. The Marlins can't reject an offer that doesn't resemble in any way that of past stadium deals? The Marlins must bend the rules of the stadium game to include being screwed over by the city? Well my point to quoting those two things was 1.) The Marlins turned down offers, and 2.) The city already earmarked money to put into the area. And yes the Marlins are allowed to reject offers if they want, but then don't say they didn't make progress. The got offers made to them, fair ones. Maybe not like ones in the past, but then again that doesn't mean the ones in the past were fair. Loria & co, were able to do something the other owners couldn't, yet you contest there was no progess.

You forget that Miami constantly backed out the deal. They tried to ahve them pay for the Canes' stadium. Posted on Tue, Mar. 16, 2004 BALLPARK Marlins reject stadium at OB or Miami Arena The Florida Marlins say they aren't being fickle but reject an offer So far, city leaders have offered only the Orange Bowl site, though the Marlins would have to build their stadium north of the existing structure, earmarked for a $100 million renovation. ''At this stage in the game, I'm so beat up,'' Arriola said in a telephone interview. ``I wish them luck. I hope they build a stadium, I'm still a fan. But you can pretty much rule out anything with the city.'' Arriola said Marlins executives had indicated they would agree to the Orange Bowl proposal if the city allowed them to reduce the team's contribution by half. ''That doesn't work for me, so the city is out,'' Arriola said. ``I have nothing left to offer.'' And how did Samson respond to that? ''We are confident that 45 days from now we will be here celebrating having the Marlins in South Florida for generations to come,'' team president David Samson said in a press conference at Pro Player Stadium. http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sport...all/8195925.htm

I don't get your esistence on changing the rules of the game. I can't enter a casino and demand that my $1 is worth $100, that the 2's in my hand replace the wild and . That's what South Florida's politicians have been doing. There is an established price to playing host to a major league franchise. It has been founded in a half century's worth of leases and ballpark financing plans. I don't get why South Florida should get off scott free. I don't get why it's okay for them to back out of deals and continually place certain provisions as the city of Miami did. Yet somehow it's repulsive for Loria to seek the publically built stadium MLB has requested for over 15 years. That by somehow wanting a profitable venture, he somehow dislikes South Florida. That by somehow seeking out other alternatives if South Florida doesn't ante up with a casino-certified chip, he doesn't want to stay here. Your arguments make no sense. Take your over 212-mile long leash and shove it. The Marlins will find a new pet. You make it sound like they didn't offer anything up. The Marlins came to them with the plan, told them the cost, and what it would have to take to keep the Marlins in S. Fla. The local officials offered up most of the cost, asking Loria to pay rent and then cover some of the construction costs and over-runs. Why is that not fair? Loria came to them saying how much it would cost and would be using his contractors, at least according to 2003. Did he not believe his own numbers, or his own contractors and really knew it would cost more? Maybe, but wanted Miami to get stuck with the over-runs, not wanting to pay the extra $100 million or whatever it was really going to cost. I am not blaming Loria for wanting to make his money, or to move the team. The problem is that he wants to play himself off as the victim. He wants to play like he did everything he could, but that he couldn't make gains no matter what he did, which is a bold faced lie. He won't admit the truth to the situation, and that is what peeves me. He wants a stadium of his own. At the most, he wants to have to pay rent, but nothing else. He tried it with the Expos, and that failed. Now he is trying with the Marlins. But he won't admit to that. He won't admit he has no affinity to the fans, or the community, he does the opposite and acts like he does. And it is sickening. I am not saying he dislikes S. Fla. I am saying S. Fla. doesn't mean anything more to him than SA, Ok. City, etc. they are all just potential places that will get him his pay day. And if you really think he believes he can stay in Florida, you are as naiive as could be. He was making gains, blew them up, and then said no matter what he did he couldn't make gains.

First it was the arbitration panel and then the courts which found, as did the Toronto Globe and Mail, the preeminent newspaper in Canada, that it was what became the minority owners of the Expos and eventually the Marlins that ruined the franchise there, not Loria. The Globe and Mail went further, saying Loria was setup to be "the fallguy" by the failed partnership in Montreal. The evidence you provide is second to nobody. :plain Because as we remember it was the minority owners who hired Samson, fired Alou, decided to turn down the radio and television coverage.... oh wait. Plus in my book if you are going to be the "fallguy" who comes in, winds up making money in 2 years only to be allowed to buy another team with a nice hefty loan from MLB, you didn't go out so badly. You just don't get it, he wants to look like the fall guy, the victim. He will be 0/2 on keeping teams in the city he found them in, at some point it stops being everyone else's fault. I think it should be obvious to everyone here at this point that the word "truthful" has no place in your vocabulary. Once again, your evidence is second to not a single soul. Relying on personal attacks is always seen as the honest way to do things. It's very Samson-esque of you. There's still a large gap that is climbing by the day as the price land, labor and materials increse. Until that is righted, IMO, there has been no progress. Since when the offer was given to Loria to sign? Maybe not. But from the point that Henry sold the team there has been a huge amount of progress. It got down to a number. A number that if Loria really believed the market would be successful and he wanted to be here, he would have signed. But no he showed his true colors that he wants to go where he'll get his stadium for rent at the most and nothing more. He has no affinity to S. Fla. or any other town. But, he tries to pass himself off as he does. If he funded the gap he would have been free of the one problem you say he has, DS. He would have won the public over, been the hero of the franchise, and would have paved the way to make the money back that he had lost and then some. If he funded the gap. But he didn't, he whined about it. He said he could get a better deal elsewhere, and that is exactly what he wants, a better deal. He doesn't care if it's here there or anywhere and that's the point, that has been the point from the beginning. Nevermind that it was the former owners, now silent minority owners of the Marlins, who had ruined the Expos' reputation in the business community, marketing and on-field talent which led to the broadcasters offering such ridiculous offers. Proof? It is key here that they are the minority owners, and by the time Loria sold the Expos he had 90+% of the ownership.

First it was the arbitration panel and then the courts which found, as did the Toronto Globe and Mail, the preeminent newspaper in Canada, that it was what became the minority owners of the Expos and eventually the Marlins that ruined the franchise there, not Loria. The Globe and Mail went further, saying Loria was setup to be "the fallguy" by the failed partnership in Montreal. The evidence you provide is second to nobody. :plain Because as we remember it was the minority owners who hired Samson, fired Alou, decided to turn down the radio and television coverage.... oh wait. Plus in my book if you are going to be the "fallguy" who comes in, winds up making money in 2 years only to be allowed to buy another team with a nice hefty loan from MLB, you didn't go out so badly. You just don't get it, he wants to look like the fall guy, the victim. He will be 0/2 on keeping teams in the city he found them in, at some point it stops being everyone else's fault.

I don't know who you think this magical owner is that is willing to take losses for a half-decade or more to gain something that may not even occur. Loria has said before he runs his teams like a business, and businesses from time to time take losses to make money in the future. Unless he is lying, he believes once the team gets a stadium down here that the franchise would soar, I am assuming that he believes would lead to profits for him. Would make sense at least. It is not like he is a 80+ year old owner clinging to life who would not see the good days if they came, he would have seen the good times if he believes what he says, which maybe could be called into doubt. That there's been no progress in a year and half is not exactly at fault of the Marlins. Loria said a while back there was some progress, just very small progress. And you want to say not the fault of the Marlins? So I guess you approve of Samson running around biting the hand he expects to feed him? That makes sense. Also slashing payroll killed any outcry for saving the team. Not to mention brought up the 1998 setiment towards the team, and news back for Loria's stay in Montreal. Fans didn't show up as expected. Fans' lobbying efforts had no effect. And Dade County made no progress in closing the funding gap. How long do you expect someone to have patience to continually running a disruptive franchise while hopes are deminishing? How long do you expect someone to make any effort towards their goal when hope is deminishing? But more fans showed up. 100,000 more fans showed up. That is about a 6% increase, and if the team was kept together there would probably be more fans this year. Before Loria bought the team it was easy to see time, work, and money needed to be put into this team. A stadium had been wanted for years when he bought the team and other people have failed to get it. If he thought because he strutted into town making promise after promise that would get him a stadium just because, then he was naiive. He used similar tactics, but he did get closer than anyone before him. And he did get a number on the table that he would have to cover to make the deal happen. But he chose not to. Despite saying he believes in the market and that all that was needed to succeed was a new stadium, he believed he would never recoup the money he needed to lay out to make the deal happen. "I will do everything in my power to ensure that baseball regains the popularity it once enjoyed in this city," Loria wrote. "I am confident that it will." http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/...rlins_loria_ap/ That is what he said when he bought the team.... that team being Montreal. Thing is, he basically said the same thing when he came down here. "I'm desirous of the challenge of making this successful," he says. I guess from the day this ownership took over we should learned not to trust them. From day 1 it was all about the spin: At least 60 fired as Loria closes deal to buy Marlins Posted: Saturday February 16, 2002 3:39 PM Updated: Saturday February 16, 2002 10:59 PM MIAMI (AP) -- At least 60 Florida Marlins' employees were fired as Jeffrey Loria closed Saturday on his purchase of the team from John Henry. During the final hours of negotiations to seal the sale, the entire player development staff was fired, including scouts, administrators and minor league managers and coaches. The dismissals were anticipated, allowing the new ownership to bring in about 50 employees from the Montreal Expos, the team Loria owned since December 1999. "We haven't laid off anybody," said new Marlins president David Samson, who is among those making the move from the Expos. " http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/...arlins_sale_ap/ ``It's a business and I run it like one. You have a passion for it the way I do, and you try to find ways to keep it alive. But I am not a guy with endless patience.'' http://www.baseball-fever.com/archive/index.php/t-416.html Loria on about how to run a team. And something that was needed here was patience and he didn't show nearly enough. It is business to him. The goal all along, like in Montreal, was to make money, cut expenses, share a cut of the pie with his friends and then do with the team that is best for him. Keep them in the city they are in or move them. And no matter what come out looking like the victim who just tried to hard. The goal is to line his pockets not to do right by the fans or the city the team was in. It's a business to him. And let's not forget about the cronieism, Samson, Torborg, etc. "We enjoyed the people of Canada," Loria says. "Unfortunately the market just didn't seem to be there." Montreal 1969-2004 Florida 1993-2009?

I guess it's convenient to forget late 2003 when virtually every politician in South Florida wanted face time with the World Champion Marlins and was promising the electorate (nevermind Loria) that they'd get a new stadium built for the local heroes. City and county commissioners, mayors from both governments, state reps and senators of both parties all proclaimed it was time to get a new stadium built. And who do you hear people blame for not having a stadium deal done. Hit the streets and talk to people. Most will say Loria not any of the politicians. If Loria played things clean and straight forward, showed fans what they wanted to see he could have gotten them on his side. Problem is that is not what he did. Their PR was just as bad as what the county and city did. Mud-slinging back and fourth, who is going to win? The one who doesn't want to use the tax money of the people. When you want to use tax money it's an upward battle for you already, you can't play level with the other people, you have to get ahead of them. The Marlins were going to hire out of state General Contractors who couldn't be bought and weren't going to allow no-show contractors and special interests to drive prices out of hand out. There was going to be no skimming for the politicos. And services and concessions contracts were going to those who bid the most not contributed the most to the mob running Miami. So you are basically saying they were going to hire people they could trust, but not trust enough to cover the over-runs themselves. Interesting. Loria's biggest mistake? Believing fielding a world champion team and trying to replicate it in 2004 and again in 2005 would be enough to get him out of Huizenga's hell on earth. I agree 100%. Maybe for a different reason though. I think to him just winning the WS and then showing good faith in keeping the team up for a couple years was enough to entitle him to a stadium, which is his mistake. He was not the first owner who failed at getting a stadium here, but he used similar tactics of the past. In the end he had a number on the table and chose not to jump at it thinking he could get himself a better deal elsewhere. I just have a hard time believing that he wouldn't fund the gap if he believes that stadium would have solved all his problems and worries. I have to believe if he wanted that he would have found a way.

Sorry if you don't feel that by simultaneously investing in the team (hello Pudge, Lowell and Delgado!) and telling fans they can't keep this up without a new stadium is not a way to encourage fans to contact their local politicians. 1 year rental, no longer here, one year rental. Delgado was rented for a year as a ditch effort to show he was trying. At this point I think it is pretty clear he had no intention of Delgado being on the team in 2006, unless he had a stadium deal done. And the problem is there aren't an overwhelming amount of fans, and now there will only be less. He also used the same line that others have used in the past, it didn't work then, didn't work now, the team didn't leave then, but they probably will now. He used tactics of the past that didn't work the first time, people had been there and seen that. He showed a commitment to winning for only a little while there. And he was doing good, but then he destroyed all the goodwill he had built up. 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 8 years. How long is enough for it to get it in your thick head that there is no Marlins and no Marlins future without a new stadium. How long can one wait on nothing happening. What improvement in stadium negotiations did you note through the entire 2005 season? I know there will be no Marlins with no stadium and that is why he put the final nail in the coffin. This team marks the end of the fans trusting him, thus politicians no longer trusting him. There was a number on the table if he agreed to close it. He chose not to. From 2003 he had half a decade before he would need a new home for the team. Yet he made these aribtrary deadline time and again. He would take 3 steps forward and then 2 back the whole time. They were making gains, but slow ones. He took on a team that he never should have. The person who bought the Marlins from Henry needed to put time and money into the effort. Yes it was probably a losing venture, soe outlets say that is false but I will say he lost money, but eventually it would pay off. They could have waited another year or two with competing, building up more good will, but he didn't and let everything he had go. He wasn't going to go broke.

The support from local politicians, and their constituents, has not been encouraging. Since 1998 this is a franchises whose owners have reserved themselves that they'd either move and/or resell the team if there's no effort to build them a new stadium. But that is the problem the sense of entitlement of the owners, Loria included. Just because you have a team doesn't mean you deserve a stadium. Loria came in and faced doubt, but he did win the World Series and could have clinched onto that and used that. How is it you will change the mind of politicians? By changing the mind of the general public. And how would Loria do that? By showing the local people and the fans why they should care about the Marlins, why they need this team here and what they will be missing if they leave. Now how would one do that? By going out in public reminding us every 10 minutes without a deal they'll leave. Or by telling us again and again that they want to succeed in S Fla at any cost... just not more than they want to pay. Not to mention fielding the team they did this year at the cost they did. The public will not be taken as fools or let someone make them their pawn, they can see through this. Companies and businesses regularly take losses at times for future benefit. Anyone looking at the Marlins before Loria bought them could have easily realized at the time there was not money to be made but eventually the money lost would pay off. Loria's solution to make money? To flirt with the idea of operating a winning team at a loss, but winning over the public and then eventually the politicos to get the stadium and a sweetheart deal? Or to field a team for about half of what the Devil Rays are putting out, and make money through the media deals, merchandise, MLB welfare and tickets sold? He chose the first, then dropped it after about 3 years to move on to option 2, really completely killing any chance of option 1 ever working again. Maybe he didn't kill baseball in S. Fla, but he has put the final nail in the coffin.

We've seen Loria's enthusiasm. Yes taking apart the World Series team right after it won, letting loose some of the most popular players, opening up still fresh wounds of 1997 and then whining no one shows up or cares.You lost me right there. We had less turnover after the World Series than the powerhouse that won it after us did after their championship. The only "key" player from that World Series team that we let go by our own choice was Derrek Lee. Maybe you could argue Mark Redman. We tried to sign Pudge, but refused to give him a stupid contract. To say we "took apart" a World Series team right after it won is a total spinjob. We brought back 6 of the 8 regulars from the lineup (Castillo, Gonzalez, Lowell, Cabrera, Pierre, Conine) and 4 of the 5 starting pitchers (Beckett, Willis, Penny, Pavano). And we upgraded the closer spot (Looper/Urbina to Benitez). The '04 team was a good ballclub and they had a real shot to make the playoffs until that damn hurricane. Amen. People that whine about breaking up the '03 champs team, give me a damn break. It's not like Pudge was a Marlin for 10 years & then they ceremoniously dumped him. He was a one year hired gun. And if you polled 100 people whether they wanted to keep Lowell, Castillo, or DLee, I'm pretty sure Lee would've gotten the least votes. It's not like Delgado was a Marlin for 10+ years and a lot of people took that personally. Pudge was the best player on the team since '97, he embodied the hope that the franchise would turn it around and be dedicated to winning year in and year out and do what it needed to do to bring the team back and have a place in S. Fla. And as far as Lee at opening day 2004 fans were not happy at all with Choi, but he won them over with that homerun of his and they chanted for him the next time up instead of snickers when he first came up. And it's not just that they changed the players on the field it's that they wasted no time in starting the "we need a stadium now now now" chant, not letting the attendance the next year speak for the team. And it was within a year they first spoke of Vegas. So much for letting the fans enjoy things and forget about the past. Hot, all you're doing is arguing the facts with people who have no respect for them. It's fruitless. They're here to further their agendas, nothing more, nothing less. Which facts? The fact that despite some unwise PR moves, among others, that attendance, and general interest in the team was going up. That people were finally warming up to the team, little by little and then he completely blew it up and he continues to lie again and again about his motives and doing excatly what past owners have done. Not to mention making deadline after deadline, that at this point no one cares anymore, because the deadlines don't mean anything. He desensitized and alienated the area completely. He was making gains and destroyed it, now he needs to start from scratch again, if he wants to. You've added a lot to this conversation. You are just a Loria-homer at all costs. Since you didn't post about this topic I have to find what you think of Loria else where. I don't care what Brantley or the naysayers say, I'm proud to have Jeffrey Loria as our owner and fan #1. I'm as optimistic as he is that this franchise has turned the corner and in years to come we'll look back on these days with humor instead of frustration. You laughing full of humor yet? We're just living through the nightmare that John Henry (groan, what a liar and jerk) left us with and thankfully JL understands that. It seems it. :plain From the article you posted: Still, the Marlins are 28th in the majors in attendance. "Purely a factor of the weather,'' Loria says. "If we get a new park, with a dome, where people know they won't be rained on, they'll come out. I believe in this market." http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/basebal...-sports-marlins (You bolded it.) So if you agree with Loria, you don't blame the fans, nor the market, because he doesn't. It's always someone else's fault according to him, or something else's fault. So who do you blame? Obviously not him.

The Marlins and the S. Fla. community needed time and patience and I am sorry but 2-3 years is not enough. Sadly growth was being seen, but that will be washed out now completely. It was sabatoged the day he realized he would not be getting a key to a stadium in Florida, in the forseen future. The community has had 15 years since they were told to seek another stadium. 10 years since the first demands from its owners for one. 8 years since it has been necessary for them to seek other options at expense of developping a long-term relationship with fans. Ignore the fan argument for a moment. There is no point in even discussing them if the team can not sustain itself in South Florida without taking drastic repulsive actions such as paying their team less than half the Devil Rays pay theirs. Right now there is no future to the Marlins in South Florida. And because of that there's no point investing anything into developping a relationship with fans. To do would be a waste of resources and little immediate benefit. And what you just said is basically Loria's whole talking point. That is how he wants people to see him, as the victim. That there is nothing he can do, this whole thing is doomed. That from the day he owned the team it was set in stone this is what was going to happen, that is what he wants you to believe. The truth of the matter is if the team was not able to sustain itself they would have moved already, yet they've hung around and hung around. The team can succeed in S. Florida, just not immediately. He needs to win fans over, get more butts in the seats and get people to care. If someone actually gave the fans a reason to like the team for more than a year or two at the time and let people fall in love with the team, letting the team become a way of life to them, then there would be a change in the politics and there would be much more of a local outcry not to lose the team. Right now you have a local populace that figures the team is only worth seeing for a couple years here and there and in between it's not worth it, so instead of going without a good franchise for years and years that they'd be missing, they would be missing just snapshots of goodness. Maybe after this latest offseason it is too late for South Florida and Loria completely alienated a fan base, but it's not because of the fans. If he tried and was willing to lose money in the short term for long term benefit it probably would have paid off. But right now S. Florida is looking at an owner who doesn't want to commit the money to win, and a product not worth throwing a stadium at. But whatever happens it is not because of the fans, you can't just throw people on a field and expect everyone to show up. Things were growing and getting better not that it matters now. I'm sick and tired of the b.s. argument that our fan base was growing from 03-05. Horrendous attendance to piss-poor attendance may be an improvement, but it is not enough to sustain a franchise. And, given the high payroll (and success) the Marlins have had over the years, the attendance they've "enjoyed" in recent years has been nothing short of putrid. Also, why do you assume that Loria had the money for the high payrolls he bankrolled the past few years? I don't think you can make that assumption. For all we know, he lost a lot of money gambling that the fans would show up once he put a good product on the field. Silly Loria, you should have realized that So. Fla fans will only come out for an "event." They're hands-down the WORST fans in North America. And, once and for all, because of the horrific lease with Wayne, the Marlins wouldn't have made that much money if they averaged 30K a night the past few years. But at least MLB-average attendance would have sent a strong signal to the politicians that So. Florida wants baseball and would have given them the political cover to green-light a new stadium. I'm not saying Loria and co haven't made substantial PR mistakes over the years (as did Henry, as did Huizenga). But to place the blame squarely on ownership's shoulders without blaming the horrible, apathetic, blase fans is foolish. Then if the fan base is so bad and that there can never be success in S. Fla with that fanbase, why would Loria even try? Because for some unknown reason he just wants a team in Florida, just because? No because he knows a team can succeed there in the long term. If he didn't believe that then it would not be a goal to try and keep a team there. His problem is is that he is trying to keep a team in S. Fla for as little as possible, as in trying to reap the benefits of South Florida without paying for any of the downside. And I didn't say attendance would get him money. I said he would lose money in the short term basically no matter what. But if he kept a consistent product on the field he would get more and more fans, thus more of a sway in the political world in S. Florida. No owner has allowed the fans to get attatched to the Marlins. Having a good team for a couple of years doesn't allow people time to fall in love with the team or to make the Marlins part of their lives. The more people cared about them the more people wouldn't want them to leave. You can't just put a product on the field and expect people to go, you need to build relations which no owner, Loria included really never did. If Loria was willing to lose money in the short term the last 3-4 years and did not whine and complain about any number of things in public, or have Samson threaten moves more people would have showed up. Heck, if they didn't threaten to leave and didn't negotiate out in the media and in the public I think attendance would have been higher than also. Why should fans show up if in the end the team is just going to move anyway? Fans don't like being someone's pawn. If Loria did those two things I don't think things would be like they are now.

The Marlins and the S. Fla. community needed time and patience and I am sorry but 2-3 years is not enough. Sadly growth was being seen, but that will be washed out now completely. It was sabatoged the day he realized he would not be getting a key to a stadium in Florida, in the forseen future. The community has had 15 years since they were told to seek another stadium. 10 years since the first demands from its owners for one. 8 years since it has been necessary for them to seek other options at expense of developping a long-term relationship with fans. Ignore the fan argument for a moment. There is no point in even discussing them if the team can not sustain itself in South Florida without taking drastic repulsive actions such as paying their team less than half the Devil Rays pay theirs. Right now there is no future to the Marlins in South Florida. And because of that there's no point investing anything into developping a relationship with fans. To do would be a waste of resources and little immediate benefit. And what you just said is basically Loria's whole talking point. That is how he wants people to see him, as the victim. That there is nothing he can do, this whole thing is doomed. That from the day he owned the team it was set in stone this is what was going to happen, that is what he wants you to believe. The truth of the matter is if the team was not able to sustain itself they would have moved already, yet they've hung around and hung around. The team can succeed in S. Florida, just not immediately. He needs to win fans over, get more butts in the seats and get people to care. If someone actually gave the fans a reason to like the team for more than a year or two at the time and let people fall in love with the team, letting the team become a way of life to them, then there would be a change in the politics and there would be much more of a local outcry not to lose the team. Right now you have a local populace that figures the team is only worth seeing for a couple years here and there and in between it's not worth it, so instead of going without a good franchise for years and years that they'd be missing, they would be missing just snapshots of goodness. Maybe after this latest offseason it is too late for South Florida and Loria completely alienated a fan base, but it's not because of the fans. If he tried and was willing to lose money in the short term for long term benefit it probably would have paid off. But right now S. Florida is looking at an owner who doesn't want to commit the money to win, and a product not worth throwing a stadium at. But whatever happens it is not because of the fans, you can't just throw people on a field and expect everyone to show up. Things were growing and getting better not that it matters now.

We've seen Loria's enthusiasm. Yes taking apart the World Series team right after it won, letting loose some of the most popular players, opening up still fresh wounds of 1997 and then whining no one shows up or cares. You lost me right there. We had less turnover after the World Series than the powerhouse that won it after us did after their championship. The only "key" player from that World Series team that we let go by our own choice was Derrek Lee. Maybe you could argue Mark Redman. We tried to sign Pudge, but refused to give him a stupid contract. To say we "took apart" a World Series team right after it won is a total spinjob. We brought back 6 of the 8 regulars from the lineup (Castillo, Gonzalez, Lowell, Cabrera, Pierre, Conine) and 4 of the 5 starting pitchers (Beckett, Willis, Penny, Pavano). And we upgraded the closer spot (Looper/Urbina to Benitez). The '04 team was a good ballclub and they had a real shot to make the playoffs until that damn hurricane. I am not saying he completely ripped the team apart like what happened after 1997, but people felt the same thing was going on. And then after saying he needed to let some guys go to save money he was able to put a payroll together in 2005 that was higher than the franchise had almost ever seen. It's that he chose not to keep the 2003 team together, he had the money for it. Also right after the 2003 WS they were already screaming poverty and the need for a new stadium, and it wasn't even a whole year after before Vegas was being thrown around. Way to give the fans time to enjoy things. The attendance has risen since 2002 and is higher than it was in 2000. The attendance now was among the highest in franchise histroy, just below the first few years of the franchise and the 1997 year. If Loria really believed people would come out for a winner, or that in the long term winning fans over would be the key he would use the money and do it. If he wanted to really stay in S. Fla he would not have done what he did this year. He would have put another great product on the field, get the attendance to go higher, get more people in the stands who care and would miss the team, not give the people no reason to come to the games or no reason to care, which is what he did. Now the general public won't miss the AAA Marlins. You can't field a a good product for a year or two then pull the plug on it if you are seeing growth and say that's it no more, if you really want the growth and to stay. The Marlins and the S. Fla. community needed time and patience and I am sorry but 2-3 years is not enough. Sadly growth was being seen, but that will be washed out now completely. It was sabatoged the day he realized he would not be getting a key to a stadium in Florida, in the forseen future.

We've seen Loria's enthusiasm. Yes taking apart the World Series team right after it won, letting loose some of the most popular players, opening up still fresh wounds of 1997 and then whining no one shows up or cares. Or crying poverty, poverty, poverty, then putting together the payroll he did in 2005, after saying he lost money in 2004. Usually you cut payroll if you are losing money not make it higher. Then he tricked fans into thinking he was trying and making long term commitments to winning with signing Delgado, which was a one year rental all the way. The number of people showing up to the stadium had been going up the last few years, so how does he reward that? By having Samson run out making deadline after deadline after deadline. They obviously didn't mean anything because hey, they've been through 10+ deadlines and still in the same position. He also rewards it threatening again and again to move. They still haven't. He lies about his contribution towards the stadium plan, acting liking he is putting in all the leg work when all he is doing is paying his rent. I'll give him credit the Marlins are still on TV and english radio. If he really believed S. Fla is the market he wants to be in and could make money there, why did he not fund the gap himself in the Miami deal? Is that not really where he wants to be? If he really wanted that deal done he would have put the money forward taken a loss in the short term to gain in the long term, that is if he really thinks over time the stadium deal would be a plus, maybe he doesn't believe that. How many franchises and fan bases does he need to burn to the ground, then salt the earth, before people realize he wants a key to a stadium of his own so he can do to someone what Wayne has done to him? The Marlins payroll is half of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays this year, does that mean last year the Marlins had half the revenue of the D-Rays? I doubt that. There is no reason he needed to play out the wheelings and dealings with the state and city so publicly. His goal is to make it seem like he is the victim, that his hand is being forced and he has no choice anymore. And it appears there are at least some willing to let him take up that role. Who do I think is the vicitim? The growing fanbase that now is being completely shunned. Rebuilding the Marlins franchise and it's fanbase is going to take time, time is something Loria does not seem to care for. Winning a World Series does not mean you are dedicated to winning or repairing old scars. If Loria cared he would have realized he was slowly getting more people to the gates every year, but that wasn't good enough for him. If he showed the willingness to win and to put a productive product on the field for 4-5 years in a row I bet the setiment around the team would be a lot different, but he doesn't have the patience for that. He doesn't seem to think losing money in the short term for benefit in the long term is worth it.

Race mixing? Oh no! NBC was just asking for trouble sending a non-white person to a NASCAR event. There is no reason a muslim should be at a NASCAR track everyone knows they wouldn't go on their own. :plain Props to the talking head at ignoring the good news here, nothing happened! Instead of knocking NBC they should thank them for proving their fan base is progessive thinking and wouldn't pick on someone that doesn't look like them. God forbid Dateline actually points that out. Oh maybe NASCAR hates good news. Stupid liberal NASCAR. Also this guy bashes them for "making news" I wonder if he shuns Dateline and the others when they do the stings against sexual predators, or mechanic stings or when they catch those people cheating on insurance. I bet he also loves that show Black.White .

He was not knocking the players, it was more of a rift on the organization as in "how did it come to an MLB team having to start 6 rookies?" It was more of a knock on Loria than anything else. We could have won yesterday and he probably would have said the same thing. The fact that there are single players making more than the entire organization is what he is ragging on not the players themselves. From how he talked I don't think he believes the team will win more than 60-70 at the most but he didn't seem to be blaming the players for that.

Judge dismisses Expos lawsuit Associated Press Saturday, February 12, 2005, Page S5 MIAMI -- The lawsuit by the former limited partners of the Montreal Expos against former principal owner Jeffrey Loria was dismissed yesterday when a federal judge approved an arbitration panel's ruling. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Pag...orce_login=true You forgot a small part as to why it was dismissed: U.S. District Court Judge Ursula Ungaro-Benages accepted stipulations from both sides Friday to end the suit. So once again: It was eventually sent to arbitration and settled for an undisclosed sum, permitting the move to Washington to take place. So once it was infront of the panel the parties came to some sort of agreement so the minority owners were no longer pushing on the charges. And the goverment had no reason to persue the case further so it was dismissed, everyone was happy with the "accepted stipulations".

No one has proven me wrong because the facts are on my side, being that I'm the one being truthful here. So where are your facts. You have shown none.

He and the other defendants were toally exonerated. I love your proof of this. You get proven wrong yet you pander on. The truth of the matter is Loria and Selig were charged with raketeering and conspiring to deliberatley defraud the minority Montreal owners. If there was nothing to this it would not have been sent to arbitration, and would have been thrown out of court like you said it did... even though it hung around for 2 years. So Selig was the one who came up with the money? What a shock figuring he has a lot more at his disposal than Loria. Before the settlement: A lawsuit by former Expos minority owners against ex-Expos owner Jeffrey Loria, under the RICO Act, is still on the docket. Informed sources see the case being settled out of court with the minority owners receiving a settlement. Then, maybe MLB will sell the Expos. After: In 2002 the former minority owners of the Montr?al Expos baseball team filed charges under the RICO Act against Major League Baseball commissioner Bud Selig and former Expos owner Jeffrey Loria claiming that Selig and Loria deliberately conspired to devalue the team for personal benefit in preparation for a move. If found guilty, Major League Baseball could have been found liable for up to $300 million in punitive damages. The case lasted for two years, successfully stalling the Expos move to Washington or contraction during that time. It was eventually sent to arbitration and settled for an undisclosed sum, permitting the move to Washington to take place. This happened notably after Loria, now owner of the Florida Marlins had received a significant financial boost after winning the World Series and Selig refused to permit the Expos to engage in September callups, effectively killing their chances at the playoffs. I know it is hard to put one and one together, but try reeeeally hard. I know you can do it.

You guys assume Samson or Loria value the truth. Do we all forget about that RICO trial where the two of them were the defendants? Loria's goal in life is to get a stadium of his own on someone else's dime. If he doesn't think it will happen here he might as well as salt the earth here and make it look like lack of support not that it was his fault, thus he needs to seek a stadium elsewhere. You are a creep beyond compare. Both the mediator who first heard the plaintiff's complaint and then the court found their position was completely without merit and summarily tossed it out. To bring it up as if either of them were gulty of anything is low-life and morally bankrupt. That's why they settled out of court for an undisclosed amount of money right? :whistle I never said they were guilty but these guys are far from great. They walked out of Montreal with items in hand. I mean you want to think of these guys as the most innocent thing ever go ahead. In 2002 the former minority owners of the Montr?al Expos baseball team filed charges under the RICO Act against Major League Baseball commissioner Bud Selig and former Expos owner Jeffrey Loria claiming that Selig and Loria deliberately conspired to devalue the team for personal benefit in preparation for a move. If found guilty, Major League Baseball could have been found liable for up to $300 million in punitive damages. The case lasted for two years, successfully stalling the Expos move to Washington or contraction during that time. It was eventually sent to arbitration and settled for an undisclosed sum, permitting the move to Washington to take place. This happened notably after Loria, now owner of the Florida Marlins had received a significant financial boost after winning the World Series and Selig refused to permit the Expos to engage in September callups, effectively killing their chances at the playoffs. When Loria bought the Expos, he presented himself as the franchise's savior. Just a few years later, however, he sold the team to buy the Marlins, taking everything with him he could sneak past customs, including computers, scouting reports, two complete sets of autographed jerseys, life-size cutouts of Vladimir Guerrero and a box of signed baseballs. It was as if he sent in Ruben Rivera for a final pass through the clubhouse. Awesome. Settling isn't admitting liability or guilt. It's a way to resolve the dispute without going to trial. Going to trial is expensive. I am not trying to say they are guilty. But I think people take these two at their words even though they really haven't earned it. Plus the people who charged them wanted their money back, I don't think they wanted them in jail or anything. So they settled out of court and they got enough money to make them happy, so the persecuting side got enough of what they wanted. Plus what happened is a lot different than: Both the mediator who first heard the plaintiff's complaint and then the court found their position was completely without merit and summarily tossed it out

You guys assume Samson or Loria value the truth. Do we all forget about that RICO trial where the two of them were the defendants? Loria's goal in life is to get a stadium of his own on someone else's dime. If he doesn't think it will happen here he might as well as salt the earth here and make it look like lack of support not that it was his fault, thus he needs to seek a stadium elsewhere. You are a creep beyond compare. Both the mediator who first heard the plaintiff's complaint and then the court found their position was completely without merit and summarily tossed it out. To bring it up as if either of them were gulty of anything is low-life and morally bankrupt. That's why they settled out of court for an undisclosed amount of money right? :whistle I never said they were guilty but these guys are far from great. They walked out of Montreal with items in hand. I mean you want to think of these guys as the most innocent thing ever go ahead. In 2002 the former minority owners of the Montr?al Expos baseball team filed charges under the RICO Act against Major League Baseball commissioner Bud Selig and former Expos owner Jeffrey Loria claiming that Selig and Loria deliberately conspired to devalue the team for personal benefit in preparation for a move. If found guilty, Major League Baseball could have been found liable for up to $300 million in punitive damages. The case lasted for two years, successfully stalling the Expos move to Washington or contraction during that time. It was eventually sent to arbitration and settled for an undisclosed sum, permitting the move to Washington to take place. This happened notably after Loria, now owner of the Florida Marlins had received a significant financial boost after winning the World Series and Selig refused to permit the Expos to engage in September callups, effectively killing their chances at the playoffs. When Loria bought the Expos, he presented himself as the franchise's savior. Just a few years later, however, he sold the team to buy the Marlins, taking everything with him he could sneak past customs, including computers, scouting reports, two complete sets of autographed jerseys, life-size cutouts of Vladimir Guerrero and a box of signed baseballs. It was as if he sent in Ruben Rivera for a final pass through the clubhouse. Awesome.

It's amusing the efforts people take to stick up for the fans. It's admirable in many ways, but it's getting to the point where it's the same people with the same diatribes and no support. Isn't that all Loria and Samson do? They contest the fans down here deserve an MLB team and the only reason they don't have a good one to root for right now is not their fault it is the evil evil Wayne's fault and evil evil Miami-Dade who won't free them of the grips of the evil Wayne. Not to mention they also believe the fans and community have earned a brand new stadium and it is wrong to make those fans have to deal with heat and rain.