... again.

 

It's be a waste of MB.com bandwidth to quote the article so if you wish to read his ramblings click here: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/wtf/

I dont think its a waste. He speaks the truth.

 

WTF is right. Down with Loria.

 

RFerry stop being such a FO apologists.

This isn't analysis. It's an unnecessary rant that adds nothing to the debate. Brian Borawski and Maury Brown cover the business of baseball beat incredibly well over there. Yet Brattain still can't get the monkey off his back. In his mind, Loria destroyed Montreal (yet the former majority owner twice gave up and tried to sell the club to DC interests) and shall forever pay. He has absolutly no credibility. In every article discussing the Marlins he distorts the picture and leaves out relevant facts. To ignore the Marlins are in a very unique situation that strains revenue and are folowing the same path tred by many teams and endorsed by MLB is inexcusable. To fault the Marlins for their actions is to have absolutly no grasp on the situation. However it's the former that Brattain is interested in and he'll slander and distort to accomplish his goal if it calls for it. As you can clearly see in the mischaracterization of the quotes which offer no such attempt to analyze them for anything but a way to shove them back in Loria's (and Samson) face.

 

I point to a history of articles (warning: it gets boring after the 2nd one, after you realize it's the same crap over and over again): http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/...ge-for-dummies/

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/battered-fish/

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/...ewing-continue/

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/dumb-and-dumber/

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/...nd-black-humor/

 

Loria and Samson have their faults for sure, but even Jesus himself couldn't have saved Montreal. It's ironic Brattain has such resentment seeing as Loria actually made some effort to improve the Expos when he took over for Claude Brochu. The problem was Loria felt no pressure upon the cover of the coffin as he was trying to take out the nails. The situation they were thrown into in South Florida isn't much better. There's a reason Henry abandoned us. There's a good reason MLB has allowed Loria to seek other host cities. The town, at present, is unsupportive and does not expect to be until there is a new stadium - something the local government won't give up and something MLB can't afford to let an owner pay for. We've seen Loria's enthusiasm. I fully expect if he saw a significant amount who supported his efforts, he'd continue forth in steps to build up the fan base. But demand is so weak and so hopeless under it's current situation, that without a new stadium it's entirely pointless to make any effort at all.

I remember when that Expos fan came on here bashing Loria last season and we jumped all over him and whatnot, kinda regret that now :lol .

rferry...are you saying jesus christ cant hit a curveball?

rferry...are you saying jesus christ cant hit a curveball?

 

I dare someone to try and throw a 12-6 in my wheelhouse.

Christ Almighty, the man Himself!

o my god !!

We've seen Loria's enthusiasm.

 

 

Yes taking apart the World Series team right after it won, letting loose some of the most popular players, opening up still fresh wounds of 1997 and then whining no one shows up or cares. Or crying poverty, poverty, poverty, then putting together the payroll he did in 2005, after saying he lost money in 2004. Usually you cut payroll if you are losing money not make it higher. Then he tricked fans into thinking he was trying and making long term commitments to winning with signing Delgado, which was a one year rental all the way. The number of people showing up to the stadium had been going up the last few years, so how does he reward that? By having Samson run out making deadline after deadline after deadline. They obviously didn't mean anything because hey, they've been through 10+ deadlines and still in the same position. He also rewards it threatening again and again to move. They still haven't. He lies about his contribution towards the stadium plan, acting liking he is putting in all the leg work when all he is doing is paying his rent. I'll give him credit the Marlins are still on TV and english radio. If he really believed S. Fla is the market he wants to be in and could make money there, why did he not fund the gap himself in the Miami deal? Is that not really where he wants to be? If he really wanted that deal done he would have put the money forward taken a loss in the short term to gain in the long term, that is if he really thinks over time the stadium deal would be a plus, maybe he doesn't believe that. How many franchises and fan bases does he need to burn to the ground, then salt the earth, before people realize he wants a key to a stadium of his own so he can do to someone what Wayne has done to him?

 

The Marlins payroll is half of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays this year, does that mean last year the Marlins had half the revenue of the D-Rays? I doubt that.

 

There is no reason he needed to play out the wheelings and dealings with the state and city so publicly. His goal is to make it seem like he is the victim, that his hand is being forced and he has no choice anymore. And it appears there are at least some willing to let him take up that role. Who do I think is the vicitim? The growing fanbase that now is being completely shunned. Rebuilding the Marlins franchise and it's fanbase is going to take time, time is something Loria does not seem to care for. Winning a World Series does not mean you are dedicated to winning or repairing old scars. If Loria cared he would have realized he was slowly getting more people to the gates every year, but that wasn't good enough for him. If he showed the willingness to win and to put a productive product on the field for 4-5 years in a row I bet the setiment around the team would be a lot different, but he doesn't have the patience for that. He doesn't seem to think losing money in the short term for benefit in the long term is worth it.

rferry...are you saying jesus christ cant hit a curveball?

 

I dare someone to try and throw a 12-6 in my wheelhouse.

 

not only are you great at hitting 12-6 curves, but i hear you sacrifice yourself to move runners over when the team needs it.

rferry...are you saying jesus christ cant hit a curveball?

 

I dare someone to try and throw a 12-6 in my wheelhouse.

 

not only are you great at hitting 12-6 curves, but i hear you sacrifice yourself to move runners over when the team needs it.

:lol :lol

We've seen Loria's enthusiasm.

 

 

Yes taking apart the World Series team right after it won, letting loose some of the most popular players, opening up still fresh wounds of 1997 and then whining no one shows up or cares. Or crying poverty, poverty, poverty, then putting together the payroll he did in 2005, after saying he lost money in 2004. Usually you cut payroll if you are losing money not make it higher. Then he tricked fans into thinking he was trying and making long term commitments to winning with signing Delgado, which was a one year rental all the way. The number of people showing up to the stadium had been going up the last few years, so how does he reward that? By having Samson run out making deadline after deadline after deadline. They obviously didn't mean anything because hey, they've been through 10+ deadlines and still in the same position. He also rewards it threatening again and again to move. They still haven't. He lies about his contribution towards the stadium plan, acting liking he is putting in all the leg work when all he is doing is paying his rent. I'll give him credit the Marlins are still on TV and english radio. If he really believed S. Fla is the market he wants to be in and could make money there, why did he not fund the gap himself in the Miami deal? Is that not really where he wants to be? If he really wanted that deal done he would have put the money forward taken a loss in the short term to gain in the long term, that is if he really thinks over time the stadium deal would be a plus, maybe he doesn't believe that. How many franchises and fan bases does he need to burn to the ground, then salt the earth, before people realize he wants a key to a stadium of his own so he can do to someone what Wayne has done to him?

 

The Marlins payroll is half of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays this year, does that mean last year the Marlins had half the revenue of the D-Rays? I doubt that.

 

There is no reason he needed to play out the wheelings and dealings with the state and city so publicly. His goal is to make it seem like he is the victim, that his hand is being forced and he has no choice anymore. And it appears there are at least some willing to let him take up that role. Who do I think is the vicitim? The growing fanbase that now is being completely shunned. Rebuilding the Marlins franchise and it's fanbase is going to take time, time is something Loria does not seem to care for. Winning a World Series does not mean you are dedicated to winning or repairing old scars. If Loria cared he would have realized he was slowly getting more people to the gates every year, but that wasn't good enough for him. If he showed the willingness to win and to put a productive product on the field for 4-5 years in a row I bet the setiment around the team would be a lot different, but he doesn't have the patience for that. He doesn't seem to think losing money in the short term for benefit in the long term is worth it.

 

Poor soul, he died so young, bayoneted in his bed by Marlins2003 and Rferry.

We've seen Loria's enthusiasm.

 

 

Yes taking apart the World Series team right after it won, letting loose some of the most popular players, opening up still fresh wounds of 1997 and then whining no one shows up or cares. Or crying poverty, poverty, poverty, then putting together the payroll he did in 2005, after saying he lost money in 2004. Usually you cut payroll if you are losing money not make it higher. Then he tricked fans into thinking he was trying and making long term commitments to winning with signing Delgado, which was a one year rental all the way. The number of people showing up to the stadium had been going up the last few years, so how does he reward that? By having Samson run out making deadline after deadline after deadline. They obviously didn't mean anything because hey, they've been through 10+ deadlines and still in the same position. He also rewards it threatening again and again to move. They still haven't. He lies about his contribution towards the stadium plan, acting liking he is putting in all the leg work when all he is doing is paying his rent. I'll give him credit the Marlins are still on TV and english radio. If he really believed S. Fla is the market he wants to be in and could make money there, why did he not fund the gap himself in the Miami deal? Is that not really where he wants to be? If he really wanted that deal done he would have put the money forward taken a loss in the short term to gain in the long term, that is if he really thinks over time the stadium deal would be a plus, maybe he doesn't believe that. How many franchises and fan bases does he need to burn to the ground, then salt the earth, before people realize he wants a key to a stadium of his own so he can do to someone what Wayne has done to him?

 

The Marlins payroll is half of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays this year, does that mean last year the Marlins had half the revenue of the D-Rays? I doubt that.

 

There is no reason he needed to play out the wheelings and dealings with the state and city so publicly. His goal is to make it seem like he is the victim, that his hand is being forced and he has no choice anymore. And it appears there are at least some willing to let him take up that role. Who do I think is the vicitim? The growing fanbase that now is being completely shunned. Rebuilding the Marlins franchise and it's fanbase is going to take time, time is something Loria does not seem to care for. Winning a World Series does not mean you are dedicated to winning or repairing old scars. If Loria cared he would have realized he was slowly getting more people to the gates every year, but that wasn't good enough for him. If he showed the willingness to win and to put a productive product on the field for 4-5 years in a row I bet the setiment around the team would be a lot different, but he doesn't have the patience for that. He doesn't seem to think losing money in the short term for benefit in the long term is worth it.

agreed...he was headed in the right direction and then sat next to the enemy in houston

That article says it all. The Marlins FO and Loria want the taxpayers to foot the bill and I'll bet they are now saying..."Thank God we didn't". If you want to keep your fan base, you don't get rid of ALL of your players. I know, I know...we still have Willis and Cabrera but mark my words, one or both will be gone at the end of this year or before.

The guys that went with other teams, or were traded are damn happy they got off a sinking ship.

Selig and Company are just as much responsible for these kind of shenanigans as the Marlins FO is.

We've seen Loria's enthusiasm.

 

 

Yes taking apart the World Series team right after it won, letting loose some of the most popular players, opening up still fresh wounds of 1997 and then whining no one shows up or cares.

You lost me right there.

 

We had less turnover after the World Series than the powerhouse that won it after us did after their championship.

 

The only "key" player from that World Series team that we let go by our own choice was Derrek Lee. Maybe you could argue Mark Redman. We tried to sign Pudge, but refused to give him a stupid contract.

 

To say we "took apart" a World Series team right after it won is a total spinjob. We brought back 6 of the 8 regulars from the lineup (Castillo, Gonzalez, Lowell, Cabrera, Pierre, Conine) and 4 of the 5 starting pitchers (Beckett, Willis, Penny, Pavano). And we upgraded the closer spot (Looper/Urbina to Benitez). The '04 team was a good ballclub and they had a real shot to make the playoffs until that damn hurricane.

FLguy-right on point. Loria just sees himself as a savior who wasn't appreciated. Now he is a victim, just like poor John Henry, who would build a stadium, then said "who me? how could I say that. I cant afford it. Oh lets bring in Admin LUchessi and figure out how to make a go of it. OH, Admin, lets get forget about the Marlins and why you came here and together we buy the Red Sox and MLB will manipulate the Yawkey family so they take the LOWER offer." MLB takes away the all-star game because the stadium is not good enough. Crap on the fans over and over and then.........

 

Bring in Loria, who is the poorest owner and can't afford to play with the big boys. Have Samson talk and guarantee "permanence in S. Florida". Wow, 3 years of improving attendance and what happened to "permanence". He spoke with forked tongue-"we are here for the long term,we will make it is safe to fall in love with the Florida Marlins again" This market is different and the first dismantling matched with horrible teams is total justification for the poor attendance for years. It seemed by their words, that Loria and Samson understood the level of committment it would take to build the trust back. It was happening, people were coming back. NOW, even the most die hard Loria and Samson apologists cannot expect a market to wildly support this team. For those of us who love baseball, we are scared of losing our team. We will still go to the park, but know that there is not enough of us who accept false promises and a minor league product just so we can keep baseball here. We know that this latest dismantling and the pimping of the team just turns off the masses that were coming back. THREE YEARS AND DONE-BS. How much revenue stream would a new stadium bring in and how much more income would 30,000 per game bring in over 23,000. Enough to justify a $15 mill payroll to be increased to compete with the other teams? No way. IMO, even if we won another World Series last yr., Delgado was gone-a $4 mill rental.

 

Loria acts like HE brought us the 2003 title. He lucked out, the players performed and the contracts were manageable. He brought in Uggie, Chad Fox was a lucky pick up whose arm lasted only for 2003. Pudge was a rental that was ready to go to Japan. It all fell into place. But that is what wins sometimes. Most of the time it doesn't happen. So when you can't keep key players and other players do not perform, your luck runs out. Sure, we were 28th in attendance, but there were many teams just a few thousand average more-not much of a difference in terms of revenue. So, if we had 3,000 more avg per game and ranked 18th-20th then this wouldn't be happening-HA HA. We all know about the bad lease deal they have-that is true. BUT they had it in 2002 when they came and it didnt stop them from offering "permanence and we are here long term" (defined by Samson as meaning non permanent and just a few years).

 

I guess there was no written guarantee of "permanence" so it is ok to just use whatever words you want, all the better to fool you, my dear. Samson is good wolf for that. All of his recent interviews have new twists and turns and hedging and possible disclaimers to previous statements etc etc.

 

I can't keep ranting. Bottom line, the building fan support is destroyed, the trust is destroyed and they have all the built in justification for being the victims and placing all the blame elsewhere. And just keep Samson as the front man-just gut wrenching to watch him and listen to him.

Same old same old from the same old band of provacateurs.

 

Half the story built on half-truths and BS. When a piece like this is published you can count on the same people to make the same comments over and over. I guess the idea is if you repeat a falsehood enough times sooner or later the gullible will believe it.

Same old same old from the same old band of provacateurs.

 

Half the story built on half-truths and BS. When a piece like this is published you can count on the same people to make the same comments over and over. I guess the idea is if you repeat a falsehood enough times sooner or later the gullible will believe it.

 

 

 

If you say there are falsehoods, then please point out what is untrue.

Until then, don't be surprised when people write about what they see as the truth based on what has gone on under the last couple of Marlins owners.

Same old same old from the same old band of provacateurs.

 

Half the story built on half-truths and BS. When a piece like this is published you can count on the same people to make the same comments over and over. I guess the idea is if you repeat a falsehood enough times sooner or later the gullible will believe it.

 

I don't think they think that far. Presenting the picture they do comforts them. They are weak people who need an enemy to blame their personal demons upon. To erase the memories of their disappointment in their city, fellow fans and perhaps the owner himself. To tell themselves 'I'm good, we're good' to override that sense that they aren't. From correspondence with Brattain, he has admitted it's something he needs to let go. That was 2 rants ago.

 

 

I'm not saying Loria or Samson are necessarily good men. They are human beings with good traits and bad traits that come out depending on the situation and how the other people involved react. I feel that in 02-04 we experienced something we all want from an owner. And that what we've experienced from 04-06 is something that we expected from him (IMO, any owner allowed into the club of MLB), but hoped would never occur. Or at the very least never had to come about - hoping it would be staved off by local politicians. I'm not going to hold him accountable for looking out for himself or using PR tactics or the stadium game or anything else that I know of owners and should have kept in mind even in the bad times. I, and anyone else who ignored that fact, was a fool. But you know what? That says something about ME, not them.

Same old same old from the same old band of provacateurs.

 

I guess the idea is if you repeat a falsehood enough times sooner or later the gullible will believe it.

 

 

Yup, you epitomize that statement.

Same old same old from the same old band of provacateurs.

 

Half the story built on half-truths and BS. When a piece like this is published you can count on the same people to make the same comments over and over. I guess the idea is if you repeat a falsehood enough times sooner or later the gullible will believe it.

 

 

 

If you say there are falsehoods, then please point out what is untrue.

Until then, don't be surprised when people write about what they see as the truth based on what has gone on under the last couple of Marlins owners.

 

Totally agree.

Same old same old from the same old band of provacateurs.

 

Half the story built on half-truths and BS. When a piece like this is published you can count on the same people to make the same comments over and over. I guess the idea is if you repeat a falsehood enough times sooner or later the gullible will believe it.

 

 

 

If you say there are falsehoods, then please point out what is untrue.

Until then, don't be surprised when people write about what they see as the truth based on what has gone on under the last couple of Marlins owners.

It would be a full-time job pointing out and repeating OVER AND OVER AND OVER the real facts as they apply to this discussion. People can continue to lie and misrepresent the facts all they want but I don't feel the obligation to once again set the record straight.

 

Or take the bait of a provacateur.

Why is it that Loria can't seem to get his wallet out of his pocket, or as Rferry says, that MLB can't allow an owner to pay for a stadium? Have I missed something? Aren't there some owners out there that have contributed to the share of the building cost, and I'm not talking just bs rent payments. Is there some magical barrier, like 10%, that MLB won't let owners cross? In any case, it seems like Loria is stuck on 0% contribution. And if MLB does have some unwritten policy, they better change with the times.

There really is no point to these type of threads anymore. The supporters of Loria believe that they are right and the anti-management groups think they are right and at this point, nothing is going to change either groups minds. We're just arguing in circles now about the same things that we do in every thread about this subject.

We've seen Loria's enthusiasm.

 

 

Yes taking apart the World Series team right after it won, letting loose some of the most popular players, opening up still fresh wounds of 1997 and then whining no one shows up or cares.

You lost me right there.

 

We had less turnover after the World Series than the powerhouse that won it after us did after their championship.

 

The only "key" player from that World Series team that we let go by our own choice was Derrek Lee. Maybe you could argue Mark Redman. We tried to sign Pudge, but refused to give him a stupid contract.

 

To say we "took apart" a World Series team right after it won is a total spinjob. We brought back 6 of the 8 regulars from the lineup (Castillo, Gonzalez, Lowell, Cabrera, Pierre, Conine) and 4 of the 5 starting pitchers (Beckett, Willis, Penny, Pavano). And we upgraded the closer spot (Looper/Urbina to Benitez). The '04 team was a good ballclub and they had a real shot to make the playoffs until that damn hurricane.

I am not saying he completely ripped the team apart like what happened after 1997, but people felt the same thing was going on. And then after saying he needed to let some guys go to save money he was able to put a payroll together in 2005 that was higher than the franchise had almost ever seen. It's that he chose not to keep the 2003 team together, he had the money for it. Also right after the 2003 WS they were already screaming poverty and the need for a new stadium, and it wasn't even a whole year after before Vegas was being thrown around. Way to give the fans time to enjoy things. The attendance has risen since 2002 and is higher than it was in 2000. The attendance now was among the highest in franchise histroy, just below the first few years of the franchise and the 1997 year. If Loria really believed people would come out for a winner, or that in the long term winning fans over would be the key he would use the money and do it. If he wanted to really stay in S. Fla he would not have done what he did this year. He would have put another great product on the field, get the attendance to go higher, get more people in the stands who care and would miss the team, not give the people no reason to come to the games or no reason to care, which is what he did. Now the general public won't miss the AAA Marlins. You can't field a a good product for a year or two then pull the plug on it if you are seeing growth and say that's it no more, if you really want the growth and to stay. The Marlins and the S. Fla. community needed time and patience and I am sorry but 2-3 years is not enough. Sadly growth was being seen, but that will be washed out now completely. It was sabatoged the day he realized he would not be getting a key to a stadium in Florida, in the forseen future.