I don't know who you think this magical owner is that is willing to take losses for a half-decade or more to gain something that may not even occur.

 

Loria has said before he runs his teams like a business, and businesses from time to time take losses to make money in the future. Unless he is lying, he believes once the team gets a stadium down here that the franchise would soar, I am assuming that he believes would lead to profits for him. Would make sense at least. It is not like he is a 80+ year old owner clinging to life who would not see the good days if they came, he would have seen the good times if he believes what he says, which maybe could be called into doubt.

 

That there's been no progress in a year and half is not exactly at fault of the Marlins.

Loria said a while back there was some progress, just very small progress. And you want to say not the fault of the Marlins? So I guess you approve of Samson running around biting the hand he expects to feed him? That makes sense. Also slashing payroll killed any outcry for saving the team. Not to mention brought up the 1998 setiment towards the team, and news back for Loria's stay in Montreal.

 

Fans didn't show up as expected. Fans' lobbying efforts had no effect. And Dade County made no progress in closing the funding gap. How long do you expect someone to have patience to continually running a disruptive franchise while hopes are deminishing? How long do you expect someone to make any effort towards their goal when hope is deminishing?

But more fans showed up. 100,000 more fans showed up. That is about a 6% increase, and if the team was kept together there would probably be more fans this year. Before Loria bought the team it was easy to see time, work, and money needed to be put into this team. A stadium had been wanted for years when he bought the team and other people have failed to get it. If he thought because he strutted into town making promise after promise that would get him a stadium just because, then he was naiive. He used similar tactics, but he did get closer than anyone before him. And he did get a number on the table that he would have to cover to make the deal happen. But he chose not to. Despite saying he believes in the market and that all that was needed to succeed was a new stadium, he believed he would never recoup the money he needed to lay out to make the deal happen.

 

"I will do everything in my power to ensure that baseball regains the popularity it once enjoyed in this city," Loria wrote. "I am confident that it will."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/...rlins_loria_ap/

 

That is what he said when he bought the team.... that team being Montreal. Thing is, he basically said the same thing when he came down here.

 

"I'm desirous of the challenge of making this successful," he says.

 

I guess from the day this ownership took over we should learned not to trust them. From day 1 it was all about the spin:

 

At least 60 fired as Loria closes deal to buy Marlins

Posted: Saturday February 16, 2002 3:39 PM

Updated: Saturday February 16, 2002 10:59 PM

 

MIAMI (AP) -- At least 60 Florida Marlins' employees were fired as Jeffrey Loria closed Saturday on his purchase of the team from John Henry.

 

During the final hours of negotiations to seal the sale, the entire player development staff was fired, including scouts, administrators and minor league managers and coaches.

 

The dismissals were anticipated, allowing the new ownership to bring in about 50 employees from the Montreal Expos, the team Loria owned since December 1999.

 

"We haven't laid off anybody," said new Marlins president David Samson, who is among those making the move from the Expos. "

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/...arlins_sale_ap/

 

``It's a business and I run it like one. You have a passion for it the way I do, and you try to find ways to keep it alive. But I am not a guy with endless patience.''

http://www.baseball-fever.com/archive/index.php/t-416.html

 

Loria on about how to run a team. And something that was needed here was patience and he didn't show nearly enough. It is business to him. The goal all along, like in Montreal, was to make money, cut expenses, share a cut of the pie with his friends and then do with the team that is best for him. Keep them in the city they are in or move them. And no matter what come out looking like the victim who just tried to hard. The goal is to line his pockets not to do right by the fans or the city the team was in. It's a business to him. And let's not forget about the cronieism, Samson, Torborg, etc.

 

"We enjoyed the people of Canada," Loria says. "Unfortunately the market just didn't seem to be there."

 

Montreal 1969-2004

Florida 1993-2009?

First it was the arbitration panel and then the courts which found, as did the Toronto Globe and Mail, the preeminent newspaper in Canada, that it was what became the minority owners of the Expos and eventually the Marlins that ruined the franchise there, not Loria. The Globe and Mail went further, saying Loria was setup to be "the fallguy" by the failed partnership in Montreal.

First it was the arbitration panel and then the courts which found, as did the Toronto Globe and Mail, the preeminent newspaper in Canada, that it was what became the minority owners of the Expos and eventually the Marlins that ruined the franchise there, not Loria. The Globe and Mail went further, saying Loria was setup to be "the fallguy" by the failed partnership in Montreal.

 

The evidence you provide is second to nobody. :plain Because as we remember it was the minority owners who hired Samson, fired Alou, decided to turn down the radio and television coverage.... oh wait.

 

Plus in my book if you are going to be the "fallguy" who comes in, winds up making money in 2 years only to be allowed to buy another team with a nice hefty loan from MLB, you didn't go out so badly.

 

You just don't get it, he wants to look like the fall guy, the victim. He will be 0/2 on keeping teams in the city he found them in, at some point it stops being everyone else's fault.

Few businesses run at a loss and stays in business for long. And those that do eventually stop thinking long-term. I sense that's the crust of your argument. You want an open-ended opportunity. Well, guess what? It's been 15 years since MLB requested a new stadium, 10 years since its owner has and 8 years since it has become necessary. Put yourself in his shoes. How much time do you give them without seeking out other options? How many years do you continually run the team with operating losses to give the market and its local politicians one more try? How long is enough?

 

There's still a large gap that is climbing by the day as the price land, labor and materials increse. Until that is righted, IMO, there has been no progress.

 

Sounds nice, but of those 100000 fans contacted their local politicians and had much effect? That's what is going to make a difference here.

I don't get where you get the impression the Marlins are upset at the market. Its stadium lease, yes. Its present ability to reach the market, yes. Its demand to build them a ballpark, yes. In every interview, Loria and Samson have expressed their preference in stay in South Florida. It is arguably the best market out there. But NOT when they are forced to play at Dolphins Stadium with a lease that reduces revenues to major league lows. Under that situation, markets such as San Antonio, Las Vegas and Alaska look like a better alternative! Loria and Samson don't hate the market (or you). They want to be here, but they simply won't if circumstances do not change. No one wants to stay here under the current circumstances.

 

I'm not going to bother dealing with quotes from a forlorn time period that ahve nothing to do with the present situation. If you want to re-write history, go ahead, but you might face legal repercussions from Brattain for stealing his shtick.

 

Plus in my book if you are going to be the "fallguy" who comes in, winds up making money in 2 years only to be allowed to buy another team with a nice hefty loan from MLB, you didn't go out so badly.

 

 

The evidence that Samson is a poor employee is suspect at best. That he is a trusted as much as he is says the exat opposite.

So?!

Nevermind that it was the former owners, now silent minority owners of the Marlins, who had ruined the Expos' reputation in the business community, marketing and on-field talent which led to the broadcasters offering such ridiculous offers.

 

Montreal 1969-2004

Florida 1993-2009?

 

Don't kill the messenger.

First it was the arbitration panel and then the courts which found, as did the Toronto Globe and Mail, the preeminent newspaper in Canada, that it was what became the minority owners of the Expos and eventually the Marlins that ruined the franchise there, not Loria. The Globe and Mail went further, saying Loria was setup to be "the fallguy" by the failed partnership in Montreal.

 

The evidence you provide is second to nobody. :plain Because as we remember it was the minority owners who hired Samson, fired Alou, decided to turn down the radio and television coverage.... oh wait.

 

Plus in my book if you are going to be the "fallguy" who comes in, winds up making money in 2 years only to be allowed to buy another team with a nice hefty loan from MLB, you didn't go out so badly.

 

You just don't get it, he wants to look like the fall guy, the victim. He will be 0/2 on keeping teams in the city he found them in, at some point it stops being everyone else's fault.

I think it should be obvious to everyone here at this point that the word "truthful" has no place in your vocabulary.

First it was the arbitration panel and then the courts which found, as did the Toronto Globe and Mail, the preeminent newspaper in Canada, that it was what became the minority owners of the Expos and eventually the Marlins that ruined the franchise there, not Loria. The Globe and Mail went further, saying Loria was setup to be "the fallguy" by the failed partnership in Montreal.

 

The evidence you provide is second to nobody. :plain Because as we remember it was the minority owners who hired Samson, fired Alou, decided to turn down the radio and television coverage.... oh wait.

 

Plus in my book if you are going to be the "fallguy" who comes in, winds up making money in 2 years only to be allowed to buy another team with a nice hefty loan from MLB, you didn't go out so badly.

 

You just don't get it, he wants to look like the fall guy, the victim. He will be 0/2 on keeping teams in the city he found them in, at some point it stops being everyone else's fault.

I think it should be obvious to everyone here at this point that the word "truthful" has no place in your vocabulary.

Once again, your evidence is second to not a single soul. Relying on personal attacks is always seen as the honest way to do things. It's very Samson-esque of you.

 

 

There's still a large gap that is climbing by the day as the price land, labor and materials increse. Until that is righted, IMO, there has been no progress.

Since when the offer was given to Loria to sign? Maybe not. But from the point that Henry sold the team there has been a huge amount of progress. It got down to a number. A number that if Loria really believed the market would be successful and he wanted to be here, he would have signed. But no he showed his true colors that he wants to go where he'll get his stadium for rent at the most and nothing more. He has no affinity to S. Fla. or any other town. But, he tries to pass himself off as he does. If he funded the gap he would have been free of the one problem you say he has, DS. He would have won the public over, been the hero of the franchise, and would have paved the way to make the money back that he had lost and then some. If he funded the gap. But he didn't, he whined about it. He said he could get a better deal elsewhere, and that is exactly what he wants, a better deal. He doesn't care if it's here there or anywhere and that's the point, that has been the point from the beginning.

 

Nevermind that it was the former owners, now silent minority owners of the Marlins, who had ruined the Expos' reputation in the business community, marketing and on-field talent which led to the broadcasters offering such ridiculous offers.

 

 

Proof? It is key here that they are the minority owners, and by the time Loria sold the Expos he had 90+% of the ownership.

Notice that flguy:

 

1) has the same disdain for logical argument and facts as Arriola

 

2) joined MB.com after Arriola decided to step down/was pushed out

 

3) never denied he WASN'T Arriola

 

hmmm...

I don't get your esistence on changing the rules of the game. I can't enter a casino and demand that my $1 is worth $100, that the 2's in my hand replace the wild and . That's what South Florida's politicians have been doing. There is an established price to playing host to a major league franchise. It has been founded in a half century's worth of leases and ballpark financing plans. I don't get why South Florida should get off scott free. I don't get why it's okay for them to back out of deals and continually place certain provisions as the city of Miami did. Yet somehow it's repulsive for Loria to seek the publically built stadium MLB has requested for over 15 years. That by somehow wanting a profitable venture, he somehow dislikes South Florida. That by somehow seeking out other alternatives if South Florida doesn't ante up with a casino-certified chip, he doesn't want to stay here. Your arguments make no sense.

 

Take your over 212-mile long leash and shove it. The Marlins will find a new pet.

I don't get your esistence on changing the rules of the game. I can't enter a casino and demand that my $1 is worth $100, that the 2's in my hand replace the wild and . That's what South Florida's politicians have been doing. There is an established price to playing host to a major league franchise. It has been founded in a half century's worth of leases and ballpark financing plans. I don't get why South Florida should get off scott free. I don't get why it's okay for them to back out of deals and continually place certain provisions as the city of Miami did. Yet somehow it's repulsive for Loria to seek the publically built stadium MLB has requested for over 15 years. That by somehow wanting a profitable venture, he somehow dislikes South Florida. That by somehow seeking out other alternatives if South Florida doesn't ante up with a casino-certified chip, he doesn't want to stay here. Your arguments make no sense.

 

Take your over 212-mile long leash and shove it. The Marlins will find a new pet.

 

 

You make it sound like they didn't offer anything up. The Marlins came to them with the plan, told them the cost, and what it would have to take to keep the Marlins in S. Fla. The local officials offered up most of the cost, asking Loria to pay rent and then cover some of the construction costs and over-runs. Why is that not fair? Loria came to them saying how much it would cost and would be using his contractors, at least according to 2003. Did he not believe his own numbers, or his own contractors and really knew it would cost more? Maybe, but wanted Miami to get stuck with the over-runs, not wanting to pay the extra $100 million or whatever it was really going to cost.

 

I am not blaming Loria for wanting to make his money, or to move the team. The problem is that he wants to play himself off as the victim. He wants to play like he did everything he could, but that he couldn't make gains no matter what he did, which is a bold faced lie. He won't admit the truth to the situation, and that is what peeves me. He wants a stadium of his own. At the most, he wants to have to pay rent, but nothing else. He tried it with the Expos, and that failed. Now he is trying with the Marlins. But he won't admit to that. He won't admit he has no affinity to the fans, or the community, he does the opposite and acts like he does. And it is sickening. I am not saying he dislikes S. Fla. I am saying S. Fla. doesn't mean anything more to him than SA, Ok. City, etc. they are all just potential places that will get him his pay day.

 

And if you really think he believes he can stay in Florida, you are as naiive as could be. He was making gains, blew them up, and then said no matter what he did he couldn't make gains.

Let's see. I see FLGuy making points and defending his position. I see his (and mine) detractors calling him names, comparing him to Arriola and other personal attacks which should therefore prove that FLGUY is wrong because he is a bad guy. But FLguy maintains his integrity which adds credibility to his arguments and does not return the name calling.

 

So when Flguy repeats a fact, and he has had many that are facts-regardless of whether Marlin2003 "thinks" they are half truths, thus they are no longer facts because they have been brought up before. That is an old, old tactic used in debate to create doubt. Old President Reagan (and I am not comparing you guys to a President, so dont get your ego up) used to say "and there you go again" when he would be critcized more than once, REGARDLESS of how correct the criticism was.

 

Well, while all owners would love to make money, baseball does not guarantee it ( it is not the NFL). It requires a committment to a community for a period of time. Darn, great baseball cities like Cleveland used to draw just a few thousand no further back than the late 80's. Then they got the JAKE. But maybe you dont know that last year with a team in the hunt until the last 3 days, they AVERAGED 24,000 per game, just 1,000 more than us. They are not moving. I know, the revenue stream-so it is not the fans, IS IT?

 

You just dont leave town after giving it a shot for 3 WHOLE years,(year one was not much). Start threatening to leave, have your fan base watch the season opener and you are sitting at the game with your hot mistress and wonder "why are the fans not willing to committ". Unfortunately, most are not like me, mindless drones who will still go to watch a bad team. But after 1997, when 65,000 show up for a pep rally after the world series and Wayne couldnt see that in 98 had he kept the team together attendance would have been over 35,000, then John Henry ("what am I doing here") and his slapstick act, we get a couple of guys with a history. Anyone with common sense knew this would take time, both to trust baseball and to trust these guys. It takes time. These guys knew it and to pretend that they are surprised that "gee it has been all of 4 years-why don't they love us-is absurd.

 

You got a retort-good, but the personal attacks and character assasination is not a very persuasive reply.

You forget that Miami constantly backed out the deal. Read Marlins2003's comments above. They tried to ahve them pay for the Canes' stadium. Then tried to take over the team by asking for a lien against the franchise to cover cost overruns without giving up control of construction, essentially guaranteeing there would be cost overruns and the city, who'd be in control of the team if they went too far, in position to decide when was enough. Then Arriolla refused to deal with Loria, trying to force a sale to his friends at lower than market value.

 

It's a bit incredible to suggest that Loria does not prefer South Florida over any other available market if the situation was the same. The reason why he's seeking out San Antonio is because they promise something South Florida hasn't delivered on for 15 years and hasn't made any progress to covering the funding gap in 2 years. If there was a profitable stadium in South Florida, Loria wouldn't even think about leaving. The only one lying or being less than sincere on this issue is you.

 

In my estimation, he has done everything he reasonably could be expected to do. Everything that any other MLB owner in his situation would have done. That that's not enough, then that is a statement about you, not him.

 

 

To the other guy:

15 years, not 3. 10 since been directly asked, not 3. 8 since the situation has made it necessary, not 3.

You can't squat forever when the land owner has repeatedly told you can not. Pay up or shut up time. Sorry.

"You got a retort-good, but the personal attacks and character assasination is not a very persuasive reply."

 

"The only one lying or being less than sincere on this issue is you"

 

Where did this come from? Well, done. You are really a class act. What a waste of time. I can't tell if you are 12 yrs old or maybe 15. Don't waste my time, reply all you want. Bang your head against the wall for all your opinion matters now.

DC, while the idea that flyguy is Joe Arriola is too delicious an image to not spend a moment chuckling over, somehow I don't for a minute think it's true. Joe is more the neanderthalish type, by now he'd be cursing and screaming at us rather than the measured tone of this character.

 

But your point remains one for people here to consider. He's clearly a provacateur with a well-thought and purpose-driven agenda who seems to have made a full-time job out of practicing his disinformationalist craft.

 

For example his comment, "It is key here that they are the minority owners, and by the time Loria sold the Expos he had 90+% of the ownership.", ignores the reason they were by then minority investors. It was because they abandoned the franchise and their commitment to sustain it financially. As both the arbitration board and later the court found, they had every opportunity to not dilute their ownership stake by continuing to finance the club, but chose not to. Loria's initial investment was for a minority of the franchise and it was by their own actions that he became majority stockholder, not because of anything he did rather because of their own actions and what they didn't do.

 

Of course, like so many other facts in the the public record, information like that does not ever find its way into a post by flyguy.

 

Who flyguy is and why he's here may forever be a mystery, but there's no question what he is and what his agenda is. Luckily, I suspect by now he's been discredited in the eyes of most people here, which is not a bad thing.

You forget that Miami constantly backed out the deal.

They tried to ahve them pay for the Canes' stadium.

 

Posted on Tue, Mar. 16, 2004

 

BALLPARK

 

Marlins reject stadium at OB or Miami Arena

 

The Florida Marlins say they aren't being fickle but reject an offer

 

So far, city leaders have offered only the Orange Bowl site, though the Marlins would have to build their stadium north of the existing structure, earmarked for a $100 million renovation.

 

 

''At this stage in the game, I'm so beat up,'' Arriola said in a telephone interview. ``I wish them luck. I hope they build a stadium, I'm still a fan. But you can pretty much rule out anything with the city.''

 

Arriola said Marlins executives had indicated they would agree to the Orange Bowl proposal if the city allowed them to reduce the team's contribution by half.

 

''That doesn't work for me, so the city is out,'' Arriola said. ``I have nothing left to offer.''

 

 

And how did Samson respond to that?

 

''We are confident that 45 days from now we will be here celebrating having the Marlins in South Florida for generations to come,'' team president David Samson said in a press conference at Pro Player Stadium.

 

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sport...all/8195925.htm

"You got a retort-good, but the personal attacks and character assasination is not a very persuasive reply."

 

"The only one lying or being less than sincere on this issue is you"

 

Where did this come from? Well, done. You are really a class act. What a waste of time. I can't tell if you are 12 yrs old or maybe 15. Don't waste my time, reply all you want. Bang your head against the wall for all your opinion matters now.

 

Yet somehow you consider his character assasination of Loria to be regarded as a fact.

Of course flyguy edits the stories in such a way as to be as incomplete as possible and offers an unreachable link as his evidence.

You forget that Miami constantly backed out the deal.

They tried to ahve them pay for the Canes' stadium.

Your point?!? Once again, you're not making any sense.

 

The Marlins can't reject an offer that doesn't resemble in any way that of past stadium deals? The Marlins must bend the rules of the stadium game to include being screwed over by the city?

Of course flyguy edits the stories in such a way as to be as incomplete as possible and offers an unreachable link as his evidence.

 

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:D6Umu7...lient=firefox-a

 

For the hard of Googling ones out there. Don't hurt your head too much.

 

 

 

You forget that Miami constantly backed out the deal.

They tried to ahve them pay for the Canes' stadium.

Your point?!? Once again, you're not making any sense.

 

The Marlins can't reject an offer that doesn't resemble in any way that of past stadium deals? The Marlins must bend the rules of the stadium game to include being screwed over by the city?

 

Well my point to quoting those two things was 1.) The Marlins turned down offers, and 2.) The city already earmarked money to put into the area.

 

And yes the Marlins are allowed to reject offers if they want, but then don't say they didn't make progress. The got offers made to them, fair ones. Maybe not like ones in the past, but then again that doesn't mean the ones in the past were fair. Loria & co, were able to do something the other owners couldn't, yet you contest there was no progess.

PhishPhan, how many times have you been banned already?

Earmarked funds for renovation of the Orange Bowl for a private university's football team. They didn't offer anything to the Marlins. They told them we'll take our contribution and yours and build a substandard stadium for you with much the same poor lease terms as you have at Dolphins Stadium. Revenue from suites and parking were going to be constrained and a high lease (to cover costs of stadium). That's not a fair offer.

Earmarked funds for renovation of the Orange Bowl for a private university's football team. They didn't offer anything to the Marlins. They told them we'll take our contribution and yours and build a substandard stadium for you with much the same poor lease terms as you have at Dolphins Stadium. Revenue from suites and parking were going to be constrained and a high lease (to cover costs of stadium). That's not a fair offer.

 

 

But you said they were trying to get the Marlins' to use their funds to help renovation of the Orange Bowl, and at least the Herald says no it was public funds that was bookmarked for that, and I think they still are.

 

You also say Loria never made any progress down here in recent years. Yet it got to a point where there was a number on the table, and to a point where the Marlins were able to tell the city and state no for a change, versus the other way around. That is progess. It might end the same, but it is progress, yet you contest that.

 

The parking garage was going to pay for itself.

 

And if it was such a bad offer why did the deal go as far as it did? If the state OK'd the tax rebate all signs pointed to the deal going through. For Loria being such the great business man, and not wanting to lose money, why do you think they let a deal that you contest was horrible for him and the team, get so far that the thing that made it fail was the state and not the city or county?

o my god !!

 

 

 

Literally ! :lol

 

 

We've seen Loria's enthusiasm.

 

 

Yes taking apart the World Series team right after it won, letting loose some of the most popular players, opening up still fresh wounds of 1997 and then whining no one shows up or cares. Or crying poverty, poverty, poverty, then putting together the payroll he did in 2005, after saying he lost money in 2004. Usually you cut payroll if you are losing money not make it higher. Then he tricked fans into thinking he was trying and making long term commitments to winning with signing Delgado, which was a one year rental all the way. The number of people showing up to the stadium had been going up the last few years, so how does he reward that? By having Samson run out making deadline after deadline after deadline. They obviously didn't mean anything because hey, they've been through 10+ deadlines and still in the same position. He also rewards it threatening again and again to move. They still haven't. He lies about his contribution towards the stadium plan, acting liking he is putting in all the leg work when all he is doing is paying his rent. I'll give him credit the Marlins are still on TV and english radio. If he really believed S. Fla is the market he wants to be in and could make money there, why did he not fund the gap himself in the Miami deal? Is that not really where he wants to be? If he really wanted that deal done he would have put the money forward taken a loss in the short term to gain in the long term, that is if he really thinks over time the stadium deal would be a plus, maybe he doesn't believe that. How many franchises and fan bases does he need to burn to the ground, then salt the earth, before people realize he wants a key to a stadium of his own so he can do to someone what Wayne has done to him?

 

The Marlins payroll is half of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays this year, does that mean last year the Marlins had half the revenue of the D-Rays? I doubt that.

 

There is no reason he needed to play out the wheelings and dealings with the state and city so publicly. His goal is to make it seem like he is the victim, that his hand is being forced and he has no choice anymore. And it appears there are at least some willing to let him take up that role. Who do I think is the vicitim? The growing fanbase that now is being completely shunned. Rebuilding the Marlins franchise and it's fanbase is going to take time, time is something Loria does not seem to care for. Winning a World Series does not mean you are dedicated to winning or repairing old scars. If Loria cared he would have realized he was slowly getting more people to the gates every year, but that wasn't good enough for him. If he showed the willingness to win and to put a productive product on the field for 4-5 years in a row I bet the setiment around the team would be a lot different, but he doesn't have the patience for that. He doesn't seem to think losing money in the short term for benefit in the long term is worth it.

 

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

 

You said it all

 

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

 

 

That article says it all. The Marlins FO and Loria want the taxpayers to foot the bill and I'll bet they are now saying..."Thank God we didn't". If you want to keep your fan base, you don't get rid of ALL of your players. I know, I know...we still have Willis and Cabrera but mark my words, one or both will be gone at the end of this year or before.

The guys that went with other teams, or were traded are damn happy they got off a sinking ship.

Selig and Company are just as much responsible for these kind of shenanigans as the Marlins FO is.

 

 

I'm not completly sure that Selig isn't in on the whole deal.

 

Selig doesn't seem to want baseball in Florida at all. He helped AZ get their stadium by loaning Colangelo $ 40 million to get the AZ stadium done. He also loaned the DC "ownerless" franchise $ 60 million this past year, but has outright flatly refused to help the Marlins franchise, saying MLB can't afford it. Yet giving us that $ 30 million would have been the smallest amount risked.

 

I ask you guys how much does Selig want baseball in So Fla ?

I don't understand your first point. Check your grammar and see if that's what you meant to say.

 

With the Marlins funds, the city planned a stadium in which the Canes then had access to greater suites and more advanced concessionaries as the stadiums would be joined together. (This all ignoring that the Canes should also have to contribute something to the project).

The parking garage was going to pay for itself because the city had planned for to take a huge chunk of the proceeds, just as Huizenga does now on days the Marlins play at Dolphins Stadium.

Of course that didn't last for long. From the start the Marlins had expressed their displeasure at the proposal for obvious reasons. The Marlins pressed for a better stadium, in which there would be a full set of suites and an adequate concessions arrangement (where all the kitchens, closets and holding centers wouldn't be on just one side) and greater shares of gameday revenues. This is when the city began seeking other sites, one of them adjacent to the Orange Bowl and known as simply the 'Orange Bowl site' for quite awhile in the press. And no, I wouldn't call that backing out of a deal from the Marlins. I would call that negotiating. Backing out of a deal is trying to destroy your partner is turning our back on an agreed-on principle or by requesting provisions that would lead to them relinquishing control of the greatest fixed asset, which is what the city of Miami attempted to do to the Marlins.

 

Also, I didn't say there hasn't been any progress since 2002. I said that there hasn't been progress in 2 years, when the Marlins were still attempting to make amends with the fan base and city by investing in a competitive franchise, offering exciting promotions and putting up billboards across town and at bus stations. I said for 15 years South Florida has known that someone (MLB) with power to change direction of the franchise wanted a new stadium and 10 years ago to this very day, someone directly connected to the franchise has been requesting a new stadium

 

He also loaned the DC "ownerless" franchise $ 60 million this past year, but has outright flatly refused to help the Marlins franchise, saying MLN can't afford it.

 

Proof? I don't recall this from reading the Nats' hometown paper, the Post or its daily express, everyday for the past 5 years. Let alone from the Nats and business of baseball blogs and messageboards I often frequent.

Of course that didn't last for long. From the start the Marlins had expressed their displeasure at the proposal for obvious reasons. The Marlins pressed for a better stadium, in which there would be a full set of suites and an adequate concessions arrangement (where all the kitchens, closets and holding centers wouldn't be on just one side) and greater shares of gameday revenues. This is when the city began seeking other sites, one of them adjacent to the Orange Bowl and known as simply the 'Orange Bowl site' for quite awhile in the press. And no, I wouldn't call that backing out of a deal from the Marlins. I would call that negotiating. Backing out of a deal is trying to destroy your partner is turning our back on an agreed-on principle or by requesting provisions that would lead to them relinquishing control of the greatest fixed asset, which is what the city of Miami attempted to do to the Marlins.

 

Also, I didn't say there hasn't been any progress since 2002. I said that there hasn't been progress in 2 years, when the Marlins were still attempting to make amends with the fan base and city by investing in a competitive franchise, offering exciting promotions and putting up billboards across town and at bus stations. I said for 15 years South Florida has known that someone (MLB) with power to change direction of the franchise wanted a new stadium and 10 years ago to this very day, someone directly connected to the franchise has been requesting a new stadium

 

What killed the Marlins' hopes in S. Fla? Was it not the state failing to give them the tax rebate and then neither the city nor the team wanting to fund that game the state left? Like I said as bad as you say the deal was, if the tax rebate went through the Marlins were going to have a very hard time turning that down, but by the way you characterize the deal you make it sound like they would have said no anyway.

 

Also you are faulting the county and city for walking away from the deal after countless amount of Marlins' self imposed deadlines, after the Marlins said they had no intrest in it anymore. And then you complain there hasn't been any progress in the last 2 years. What a shock, why wouldn't there be? Maybe because in the last 2 years the Marlins have met with city after city, and Miami-Dade had no intrest in being used as leverage for the Marlins. If the deal was left on the table Loria and Co. could go to these other cities and say "Hey Miami is offering us X, you need to do better." Not to mention it was Miami's way of protecting itself. There is no way they see the franchise right now worth the offer they were given a couple years ago now.

 

Loria was the closest in those 10 years and he let the chance squander away.

He also loaned the DC "ownerless" franchise $ 60 million this past year, but has outright flatly refused to help the Marlins franchise, saying MLN can't afford it.

Proof? I don't recall this from reading the Nats' hometown paper, the Post or its daily express, everyday for the past 5 years. Let alone from the Nats and business of baseball blogs and messageboards I often frequent.

 

It was reported on ESPN and also in the Miami Herald 5 or 6 months ago, when the City of Miami stadium deal went away. It was in a column and was aking why MLB helped other franchises but lets the Marlins franchise sink, as it did the Montreal franchise.

 

Why was the "swap" necessary anyways ? Why did Loria have to buy the Marlins ? He should have been allowed to stay with the DC franchise. But no Selig knew he wasn't a good owner, and that to have him in DC without a new stadium, and being the poorest owner in baseball that would have spelled doom to baseball in DC once again. Also he knew that baseball could be saved by having Mr Arriola's Venezuelan friend buy the Marlins franchise and build the stadium. Its obvious that Selig doesn't want, and never has wanted baseball in So Fla. He has done everything he could to ruin it....from taking away the 1999 All-Star Game, to bringing in the Franchise Ruiner (Loria), to not helping his friend Henry to build a stadium, and then once again not helping with a loan from MLB to build the So Fla stadium.

 

DC aside, Is it not true the MLB made a loan to help Colangelo build the AZ stadium ???

 

I love the Marlins but I am afraid they are doomed in South Fla, and its not the public's fault. There was a chance but MLB, in its infinite wisdom has made its success in So Fla nearly impossible.