ZiggyTaxi

Cubs will probaly give up a first rounder if the Twins offer Hawkins Arbitration.? Stupid deal!? A relief pitcher for your first round pick?? Does the Billy Goat have an effect on the Front office also?? No Wonder the Cubs havent won a WS in ages. Hawkins is a very good pitcher, and 1st round draft picks mean less in baseball than any other sport, so I have to disagree. I thought this was a very good move by the Cubs. If they don't have Hawkins closing on opening day, they are on crack, he has all the tools IMO to be a very good closer. They will be on crack if they DO have him close. Joe Borowski is the Cubs closer. LaTroy just provides a great setup man and the bridge to JoBo. I don't think LaTroy has the makeup to be a closer. Borowski does. LaTroy to Borowski is a very good combo. Borowski is a setup man. He doesn't have the stuff to consistently shut it down and close games for a quality team like the north siders, while LaTroy can gun it at 97+ with pinpoint control. They should use Borowski as the bridge to LaTroy, I think he would go a great job there, and the Cubs could virtually make most games a 7 inning game. Borowski IS a closer. He proved that this year. Everyone knows LaTroy doesn't have the makeup to close, and Borowski does. LaTroy will not close. Borowski will.

Cubs will probaly give up a first rounder if the Twins offer Hawkins Arbitration. Stupid deal! A relief pitcher for your first round pick? Does the Billy Goat have an effect on the Front office also? No Wonder the Cubs havent won a WS in ages. Hawkins is a very good pitcher, and 1st round draft picks mean less in baseball than any other sport, so I have to disagree. I thought this was a very good move by the Cubs. If they don't have Hawkins closing on opening day, they are on crack, he has all the tools IMO to be a very good closer. They will be on crack if they DO have him close. Joe Borowski is the Cubs closer. LaTroy just provides a great setup man and the bridge to JoBo. I don't think LaTroy has the makeup to be a closer. Borowski does. LaTroy to Borowski is a very good combo.

Cubs will probaly give up a first rounder if the Twins offer Hawkins Arbitration. Stupid deal! A relief pitcher for your first round pick? Does the Billy Goat have an effect on the Front office also? No Wonder the Cubs havent won a WS in ages. I wasn't impressed with the draft class this year anyway, and we are picking 25th, so it isn't that big of a deal. I feel that good draft picks can be made in other rounds then the 1st, and not many of the highly sought-after players will fall to the 25th so the Cubs would have to try to get some good pickups anyway. Who knows. Maybe LaTroy will sign after December 7th. That would be a nice bonus.

I have heard now that it was only a rumor the Cubs were interested. Articles now aren't mentioned the Cubs made an offer like I previously thought. Honestly, ESPN and all the sports media have no clue a lot of times during the offseason. It is a bit frustrating.

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/NASApp/ml...s_mlb&fext=.jsp The trade was a rumor that got out of hand.

Wow, Ziggy, you're really passionate about this Marlins-not-getting-a-great-deal thing. Choi, for his hitting potential, costs $305,000 with no arbitration until AFTER 2005. Next ridiculous point?? I'm guessing Steve Bartman is the reason the Cubs didn't make it to the World Series. Actually that game I blamed on Alex Gonzalez, but that is another story... Next ridiculous point? "players that come through in the clutch" MiggysLadi, come on. Once it is proved there is any sort of correlation from year to year, will I believe there is such thing as a clutch player. So far, the only evidence has been against such a correlation, saying there isn't one. Jesus :banghead I'm not saying the Cubs should only get hitters that can only produce when it counts. But some of them should at least have that quality. :banghead Listen. That is what I have been saying all along. There aren't people with that quality. There is NO correlation from year to year. It just doesn't happen.

Wow, Ziggy, you're really passionate about this Marlins-not-getting-a-great-deal thing. Choi, for his hitting potential, costs $305,000 with no arbitration until AFTER 2005. Next ridiculous point? I'm guessing Steve Bartman is the reason the Cubs didn't make it to the World Series. Actually that game I blamed on Alex Gonzalez, but that is another story... Next ridiculous point? "players that come through in the clutch" MiggysLadi, come on. Once it is proved there is any sort of correlation from year to year, will I believe there is such thing as a clutch player. So far, the only evidence has been against such a correlation, saying there isn't one. Jesus

D. Lee is not going to be your best hitter. He might be just as good as Ramirez batting (which had a great yr last yr) but where you will see where he stands out is in his defense. Hes a vacuum cleaner overthere at 1st base. We Marlins fans have gotten spoiled. I truly wish the best for him. BTW, we as fans cant say how good this trade will be until years have past bye but i think it will work out for both of us. He would have been the best hitter for us in 2003 at a pitchers friendly park, so he very well easily could be in 2004. I look at EQA by the way, which takes a LOT of things into consideration, but I already mentioned that.

Lets put it to rest...The Marlins got what they needed out of the trade and so did the Cubs...We both won in this deal...On a side note, i was thinking on how the Montreal Expos organization has effected both out teams for the better...We have one of the best organizations b/c of the migration from the Expos of several of their people and Hendry of the Cubs worked with the Marlins before ging to the Cubs That is a good point. The Marlins got rid of salary. The Cubs got a great 1B. It all comes down to whether or not Hendry can lock up Lee long term. I love Choi. He was one of my favorite players because he was a class act. I hope he does good, just not when facing the Cubs! :lol

Ziggy, you are arguing with the wrong people we have watched him play since 1998, we know what he can and cannot do Like, for me, I would love to have Sammy Sosa, but you say he never hits when it counts... i woudlnt know that because i dont watch the Cubs that much No, I never said he doesn't hit when it counts. All I am saying is simple. There is no such thing as a clutch player since there is no correlation of stats from year to year. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Park/11...tchhitting.html Geez, that is all. I don't care if Derrek Lee isn't Clutch in any of your minds, I want him to put up good numbers, that is what I would rather have. He should put up even better numbers in Hitter Friendly Wrigley.

Like CapeFish pretty much said.. How do you plan on winning without having players that can produce when it really matters? If you don't have any players that can come through with a big hit with men on base, 2 outs, bottom 9th, bases loaded, tied game, etc....then how are you going to win? I know you don't think the Cubs will not have any close games and blow out all their opponents...sorry but you can't depend on the Cubs pitching for everything. Oh, and another thing. Go ahead fill your team with "clutch" players, while I take the best players available. Hitting in the clutch. Clutch hitters. Give it a rest. What are we going to use RBI's to judge a player now? I never said to fill your WHOLE team with clutch players. I'm not saying that clutch is everything. I really don't think it is. But answer my question, how are you gonna win if you don't at least have a couple of players that can come through in late game situations? You don't get mine. There is no such thing as a clutch player. There is no correlation. There have even been studies done on that, I think the correlation from year to year is something like .01 Which is pretty much means, no correlation. I can't wait for Derrek Lee to be in Cubbie Blue and be their best hitter.

Like CapeFish pretty much said.. How do you plan on winning without having players that can produce when it really matters? If you don't have any players that can come through with a big hit with men on base, 2 outs, bottom 9th, bases loaded, tied game, etc....then how are you going to win? I know you don't think the Cubs will not have any close games and blow out all their opponents...sorry but you can't depend on the Cubs pitching for everything. Oh, and another thing. Go ahead fill your team with "clutch" players, while I take the best players available. Hitting in the clutch. Clutch hitters. Give it a rest. What are we going to use RBI's to judge a player now? The system we use here in Florida to evaluate young players have lead to 2 World Championships with two totally different generations of players. The system in Chicago has led to "let's wait until next year." You traded the farm away for a chance to make a run in 2003, but then saw another teams farm beat you. Look at the Cubs of 2003 and how many came from the Cubs farm system? Not many, most were traded for or signed free agents who left other teams for more money. Our farm system is mainly pitching, so it makes sense there were only two positional players from our farm system. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Park/11...tchhitting.html That explains the correlation, well the lack thereof, of clutch hitting very well. Oh, and when you say traded the farm away, what are you talking about? The only player that had any sort of small value was Bobby Hill, who the Cubs were once high on but he had faded a lot due to poor performance. The others given away I wouldnt call trading away our farm. Hendry made some very nice trades.

Like CapeFish pretty much said.. How do you plan on winning without having players that can produce when it really matters? If you don't have any players that can come through with a big hit with men on base, 2 outs, bottom 9th, bases loaded, tied game, etc....then how are you going to win? I know you don't think the Cubs will not have any close games and blow out all their opponents...sorry but you can't depend on the Cubs pitching for everything. Oh, and another thing. Go ahead fill your team with "clutch" players, while I take the best players available. Hitting in the clutch. Clutch hitters. Give it a rest. What are we going to use RBI's to judge a player now?

I don't care about clutch that is the point. Who builds a team around clutch players? Choi maybe good just never Derrek Lee good. The statement above is why the Cubs never win and never will win. If you think a player already in the league over 6 years, who has never been clutch will help your non-clutch team win then you will never understand why the Marlins made a good trade. We got Choi with all the potential he has to work with, Lee is a dead end. If Choi can have a good glove and not K at the same rate Lee did, we don't care how much he homers or how many splits he does. You couldn't be more wrong. The Cubs never win because they make and have made the worst management moves I have ever seen. But now is a different time. They actually have a good farm system, things are looking better. Choi has never proven himself. Sorry, but he will have to work hard to do what Derrek Lee has done. We will see what Lee does in a hitter's park. A winning ballclub isn't filled with guys who can hit in the clutch, have you all gone mad. There is no such thing as a clutch player. "Clutch" statistics never carry over from year to year, there is NO correlation. A winning ballclub is built around good players. And maybe Choi will do as good as Derrek, that is a maybe. He is 24 and hasn't proven himself.

I don't care about clutch that is the point. Who builds a team around clutch players? Choi maybe good just never Derrek Lee good.

Sosa hit half of his homeruns with Runners on, and his OPS improved with Runners on. Hitting with runners on base isn't clutch, hitting when you team has 2 men on base and is down 1 with 2 outs in the 8th inning is clutch. Clutch is getting a hit when your team desperately needs one, not hitting with runners on base, and I know you can't spit out some stat about how sammy hits late in the game in a close game with runners on base and 1 or 2 outs when the cubs really need a hit to tie or win the game. What about the Split: Close and Late? Though I really don't care. Close and Late statistics generally never carry over for a player from year to year. So if that is clutch, then each year it changes, there is no real correlation each year.

Clutch means absolutely nothing for me. To say Alex Gonzalez is good because of a few walk off hr's would be dumb on my part. I'm just saying you want a good player that also HITS IN THE CLUTCH, and Lee is a good player, but he chokes when it matters. Oh, and btw, clutch means nothing to you huh? Have you ever heard of a player named Derek Jeter? I hate Jeter and think he is amazingly overrated, but he is as clutch as they come. I don't get how all of Sosa's homeruns were meaningless when he hit exactly half of them with runners on. :lol I love it when people don't even bother to look things up when they make claims, it is so much funnier that way.

Sosa hit half of his homeruns with Runners on, and his OPS improved with Runners on.

No offense, but statistics are exactly what you go for in baseball. Noone is going to convince me that the intangibles of the game, far outweigh the tangibles. Stats are important, but you are making it sound like intanglibles that don't show up in stats aren't important, which is simply not true. I know that you are aware as a cub fan that most of sammy's homers and such are hit at meaningless times, and you can't tell me that that doesn't matter. Sosa is our best hitter. Are you telling me Alex Gonzalez is good because he had three game winning, last AB homeruns?!? No, Alex Gonzalez is downright terrible. You can tell me all you want about these intangibles and why Lee wasn't your best hitter, but I really don't care. He was your best hitter, by statistics, which is how you judge players, period. Clutch means absolutely nothing for me.

If Lee is your best hitter, there is seriously something wrong.? He was probably our 7th best hitter last year. Actually, going by EQA, Derrek Lee was your best hitter. If any of you don't know what EQA is I suggest you look here: Equivalent Average. A measure of total offensive value per out, with corrections for league offensive level, home park, and team pitching. The EqA adjusted for all-time also has a correction for league difficulty. The scale is deliberately set to approximate that of batting average. Average is .260 Here are the team statistics: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/current/eqa.html#tmsort Look for Florida, on the top it will say Derrek Lee. I don't give a s*** about your stats. I'm going by what I saw in every game this season. Lowell, Pudge, Cabrera, and Conine(at the end) were way more consistent than Lee. They came up with the big hits night in and night out. Sure Lee wold add his solo home run in here and there when it didn't matter. and our guys at the front were getting on base every game, doing their job. Stats don't always tell the whole story. Derrek was also getting on base, and getting XBH even with men on base. Look at his statistics.

If Lee is your best hitter, there is seriously something wrong.? He was probably our 7th best hitter last year. Actually, going by EQA, Derrek Lee was your best hitter. If any of you don't know what EQA is I suggest you look here: Equivalent Average. A measure of total offensive value per out, with corrections for league offensive level, home park, and team pitching. The EqA adjusted for all-time also has a correction for league difficulty. The scale is deliberately set to approximate that of batting average. Average is .260 Here are the team statistics: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/current/eqa.html#tmsort Look for Florida, on the top it will say Derrek Lee. Joe Novak, Northern Illinois Football Coach: "Stats are helpful to show how good a player on occasion, but for the most part, stats are the most overused and overrated things in sports." Maybe you should think about more than some numbers on a paper when you are figuring out how good a player is. No offense, but statistics are exactly what you go for in baseball. Noone is going to convince me that the intangibles of the game, far outweigh the tangibles. Maybe in a sport like Football, where coaching is also much more important (e.g., Bears) but don't get me started on the Bears.....::sigh:: :banghead

Maybe because I don't really care about Sammy.? He is one player on a team.? He is our best hitter, but won't be with Lee coming in. :lol Lee is a better hitter than Sosa? Whatever you say. Miguel Olivo corked his bat, shouldn't you be defending him?? It is the same thing. When did this happen? If it did, I lose A LOT of respect for Olivo, but I find that very hard to believe, because I know it's never happened to him in the majors. Do you have a link to prove your claim?Going by EQA he is the best hitter on the Marlins, and the best hitter on the Cubs. Look into it I suggest, it is a very nice statistic. Though it is hard to get some people to see beyond Batting Average. :angry He did it in the Minor Leagues. Still want a link? http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2003/0603/1562807.html White Sox catcher Miguel Olivo was suspended for six games in 2001 from the Double-A Birmingham Barons for a corked bat. I have lost respect for Sosa, though I disagree with him why he would even want to use it, since it doesn't really help, especially how far he hits the balls, but that is another story. To me, if someone does it, it doesn't matter if it is in the Majors or Minors, I lose the same amount of respect.

If Lee is your best hitter, there is seriously something wrong. He was probably our 7th best hitter last year. Actually, going by EQA, Derrek Lee was your best hitter. If any of you don't know what EQA is I suggest you look here: Equivalent Average. A measure of total offensive value per out, with corrections for league offensive level, home park, and team pitching. The EqA adjusted for all-time also has a correction for league difficulty. The scale is deliberately set to approximate that of batting average. Average is .260 Here are the team statistics: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/current/eqa.html#tmsort Look for Florida, on the top it will say Derrek Lee.

He is our best hitter, but won't be with Lee coming in. DLee is now the best Cubs hitter? Yep. At least he projects to be in the 2004 season. He adds something the Cubs really need, OBP. Who is better, Sosa, Alou, Ramirez, Corey? No not really. I don't go by batting average.

Prepare for the realization that Lee pads those numbers when the game is already out of reach for either team. He will fit right in with the cubs then. Their right fielder has made a career out of putting up meaningless numbers when the game is insignificant or already over. And with that, I now prepare for the resident cub fans around here to say how sammy is the greatest and the cork incident only happened because the bat boy screwed up, and how sammy isn't on steroids, and how frank thomas sucks, and how mark prior and the cubs didn't choke, and how kerry wood is the greatest pitcher ever who has never won 20 games. Typical Sox fan. Go ahead, do your eye roll smiley face to me. Because of course, a pitcher's W-L record tells how good he is. You are absolutely right. Of course it is not lgERA that tells a pitcher's ERA and takes park effects into account. How brilliant you are. Russ Ortiz should have won the Cy Young because of course, he had 20 wins. I think it is a thing called run support. Maybe you should look into that before you come across as an idiot. Umm dude...the last paragraph of my post was pure sarcasm, because nobody had said any of that yet. Everybody around here knows i'm not an idiot either, so don't even try that argument. And why aren't you rushing to sammy's defense about the stuff I said about him? Maybe because I don't really care about Sammy. He is one player on a team. He is our best hitter, but won't be with Lee coming in. Miguel Olivo corked his bat, shouldn't you be defending him? It is the same thing.