Here's how it goes. Each side makes their opening argument. One side goes first. Once the other side goes, the first side may post again and defend his argument. You can only go again once the opposing side gets to speak. You've got about 48 hours.

 

ONLY the competitors of this specific debate, the judges and myself may post in this thread.

 

At the end the judges will privately vote on a winner.

 

This debate ends 9:00 PM Eastern on 4/2.

 

Topic: Miguel Cabrera is the projected #3 hitter in the lineup. Was this the right decision or should the Marlins have used Mike Lowell 3rd instead?

 

Should've used Lowell - Heckeroo

 

Cabs was the right choice - Hotcorner

 

Either side may begin.

:plain

 

 

ooookay.....

 

 

 

Well I guess we could start off with the fact that Lowell is a better hitter out of the 5 spot. And not by a little bit either. Average of 50 points higher over the past 3 seasons.

 

-Year - 3rd - 5th

2002 - .198 - .312

2003 - .234 - .308

2004 - .287 - .298

 

He evened out a little last season, but over the years Lowell has done a better job batting 4th or 5th. I don't know that there's a whole lot of difference really breaking down their approaches at the plate for batting 3rd. Lowell is a severe fly ball hitter which is nice because you don't want to see a lot of double-plays that end an inning before Delgado comes up... but let's face it Cabrera is already the more feared hitter and no one knows how high his numbers could go. Plus in general teams want their best offensive players batting early in the order.

 

As I said, I'm not sure there a measurable difference in the two approaches, Cabs strikes out more but will probably improve with experience, and he's likely to hit more homers & drive in more runs than Mikey. Both are as slow as my Great Uncle Lou who has a bum hip, so that doesn't factor in.

 

Lowell is Mr. Consistent in most respects, but one noticable hiccup is his average batting 3rd. So for whatever reason he's more comfortable in other spots.

Lowell should be batting third, and you even mentioned yourself why: He's Mr. Consistent. What can you expect from a very very young player like Miguel? Yes, he has a very high ceiling, but you just don't know what you're going to get from him. With loewll, you know that you will get a much much more patient hitter with less strikeouts than you would with miguel. Lowell grounds into less double plays, a big component of hitting third since you don't want to end an inning abruptly with your big gun on deck.

 

A lot of you might think: but look: Miguel's numbers are so much better!

 

Well, the fact is, they're really not

 

Lowell's average last year was .293, and Miguel's was .294. Lowell's OBP was .365, while miguel's was .366. Lowell's OPS was .870, and miguel's was .878. Miguel had 33 HR's while lowell had 27. The desparity's not as great as you would think. Then take into account that lowell, for one reason or another, just broke down in the second half. Now, you would logically think that he's been working hard to not do that again this year, and he will probably show the effects of that hard work throughout the year by not doing so, therefore giving him a great year, or at least noticeably better than last year.

 

So now that you see that the numbers are basically the same, take into account the intangibles. Miguel has not even played for two full years. Lowell is a 7 year veteran. Lowell is a clubhouse leader. Lowell is considered by many to be the heart of this team. What kind of statement is it if your "heart" is batting fifth in the order, when his stats are equal to those of the one that is.

 

Another big component of hitting third is putting the ball in play. This is where the real big difference is. Miguel struck out 148 times last year, nearly once a game. Imagine if once a game, you had Juan Pierre on second with masher carlos delgado on deck, and then Miguel strikes out, not advancing the runner, just a useless out. now compare this to the fact that lowell struck nearly half as much as Miguel (77), and you have your number 3 hitter.

It's true that Miguel's numbers were not much different than Lowell's.

 

The difference is that Mike Lowell is in his prime, while that was Cabrera's first full season in the majors.

 

I think if you polled marlins fans, the majority would say Cabrera has an even higher ceiling than Lowell. And no, of course you don't know what you'll get yet with Cabrera, but everyone's drooling over him for a good reason.

 

My argument is not necessarily that Cabrera is better than Lowell though, just that he's better than Lowell in the 3 spot. I'm not knocking Mike Lowell, he's been my favorite player on the team for years.

 

And yes, even though Lowell is Mr. Consistent, I relate that term more to his end of season numbers than his consistency from month to month. It's easy to predict what he'll wind up with at the end of the season, but Lowell has gone through mid-season slumps. Cabrera's first full season went without a noticable slump at all during the year, and it's reasonable to think his strikeout numbers will decrease as he gets more experience (though that's not always the case).

 

Again, the matter of one being better than the other is irrelevant to me really. Lowell has hit better when he's not in the 3 spot, and that's what I'm basing this on.

If you say cabrera has improved then why can't Lowell? In fact, what you are arguing, the fact that he's not suited for 5, has been contradicted by the fact that he showed improvement in the 3rd spot on a year to year basis. Just because he is in his "prime", doesn't mean he still can't learn. You have to learn your position in the line up and how to hit in it. He has shown that by his improved average in the 3rd spot every year since 2002, with a marked improvement each year mind you.

 

I feel that cabrera is a good player, and has talent that is absolutely through the roof, but when you stick a 1.5 year 22 year old in the 3rd spot, that's a lot of pressure to handle. Why not give it to the experienced 7 year veteran who put up virtually identical numbers? I've already made my case on the strikeouts, so I won't repeat that, but it is surely a very valid point and would be one of the bigger disadvantages of having Cabs hit third.

 

Lowell has showed constant improvement from the 3rd spot, as you have shown yourself, so what would make you think that he will all of a sudden stop showing improvement? his skills are not diminishing, and that would be the only thing that would stop him.

 

You also say that cabrera went through no long slumps, yet in september, he hit a miniscule .229 and only scored 13 runs, so to say that is not entirely true.

 

Cabrera, in my opinion, is just too much of a risk in the 3rd spot. He's a young inexperienced hitter and a frequent strikeout victim. Not the type of hitter you want batting third for a team with high expectations when you have a guy like Mike Lowell as the alternative.

If you say cabrera has improved then why can't Lowell? In fact, what you are arguing, the fact that he's not suited for 5, has been contradicted by the fact that he showed improvement in the 3rd spot on a year to year basis. Just because he is in his "prime", doesn't mean he still can't learn. You have to learn your position in the line up and how to hit in it. He has shown that by his improved average in the 3rd spot every year since 2002, with a marked improvement each year mind you.

 

I'm not saying Lowell can't improve, he certainly can. But historically he's batted worse at 3rd than at other spots, so why put him there? Why bother?

 

Lowell's also shown a tendency to slow down in the 2nd half. His OPS has dropped 200 points after the All-Star break every time the past 3 seasons. And although Lowell doesn't hit into many double-plays, Cabs only hit into 3 more than Mike all last season, so that's basically a wash.

 

Cabrera's everyone's future Albert Pujols. The best young hitter in the game. You don't bat that guy 5th. As for putting a lot of pressure on him, this is the kid who batted cleanup in the World Series in Yankee Stadium as a rookie. He'll be fine.

Cabs grounding into 3 more double plays is really more significant than you make it out to be, if you look at it from my perspective. Lowell grounded into 15% less double plays, that puts the stats into perspective. Essentially every double play is a rally killer. If you're only going to commit 20 or so every year, than yes, 3 is actually is a pretty big deal. Maybe I can put into perspective. I don't know how many of you are familiar with track and field, but 20 seconds is more or less what a great 200 meter runner would run. If you took 3 seconds off of that, his splits would be world records for the 100. So yes, 3 is a big difference.

 

As for lowell, i'm saying that he has shown constant improvemnt from the 3 spot. He will keep improving. He hit .287 last year, more than a respectable number. Now when you take into account that it should raise even more this year, with about 30 HR's and 100 RBI's guranteed in a healthy year, you have a bona fide number 3.

 

Miguel, on the other hand, is a much bigger risk. Yes, he is an experienced 22 year old, but those are the key words. How experienced can a 22 year old be? How much pressure can he really take? No matter how poised or calm he may seem to be, he's just one long slump away from having his confidence sunk. A guy like mike lowell can take that mental strain, and has proven to be a clutch hitter as well with his late inning heroics. This makes him the clear cut choice to be the #3 hitter for the 2005 Florida Marlins.

Hotcorner has been voted the winner.

Good stuff Heck.

Good stuff Heck.

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If i won this debate, i think I would've built a shrine to myself or something

 

i think i did the best I could,so i'm fine with it

 

good job hotcorner

Hate to say I told you so

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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:plain