Here's how it goes. Each side makes their opening argument. One side goes first. Once the other side goes, the first side may post again and defend his argument. You can only go again once the opposing side gets to speak. You've got 48 hours.

 

ONLY the competitors of this specific debate, the judges and myself may post in this thread.

 

At the end the judges will privately vote on a winner.

 

This debate ends 8:00 PM Eastern on 1/6.

 

Topic: Who should start Opening Day between Josh Beckett and A.J. Burnett?

 

Josh Beckett - Madman81

 

A.J. Burnett - Juanky

 

Either side may begin.

I know the easy choice is Josh Beckett. He won World Series MVP, he's started Opening Day before, and he always had his name in the spotlight from the second he was drafted just behind Josh Hamilton. But is the easy choice always best? No, it isn't. This is a clear example of one of the situations where this notion is challenged.

 

While Becks has done alot for the Fish, ask yourself right off the bat - is he the ace of this staff? Production wise? No, that would be Al Leiter. And if you want to include only production as a Marlin, it's either AJ or Dontrelle. He's never finished an entire season, yet he's supposed to be the ace and Opening Day starter of a staff production wise? No way. Is he the ace of the staff talent wise? No, that would clearly be AJ. While Josh has some major talent, AJ is the one scouts have always drooled over. AJ is the one who has clocked 98 miles per hour in the 9th inning of a complete game. AJ is the one who has thrown a no hitter, and the one who has set the record for most K's by a Marlin in a single game. AJ has finished a season before, and in 2002 was among the best pitchers in the majors, with over 200 K's and one of the best ERA's in the league. The best part was, he was still developing.

 

And among the most important factors, besides AJ clearly being the best pitcher on the staff, is that he is in his walk year. What better way for a front office, who has yet to show much interest in resigning him mind you, that they care by entrusting him with the ball on the first game of the season?

 

Start the year off right and send AJ to the hill against the Braves Game 1 of 162.

While Becks has done alot for the Fish, ask yourself right off the bat - is he the ace of this staff? Production wise? No, that would be Al Leiter.

 

I'd have to say that there is no clearcut ace of the staff. Basing off of production simply does not work. Greg Maddux is not the ace in Chicago, yet he has produced the most, has he not? I have a hard time calling someone who hasn't pitched for the ballclub in 7+ years the ace of the staff.

 

And if you want to include only production as a Marlin, it's either AJ or Dontrelle. He's never finished an entire season, yet he's supposed to be the ace and Opening Day starter of a staff production wise? No way.

 

Boasting about a career 36-37 record? Both are young, and neither have produced in large parts for the Marlins yet. Saying he's never finished an entire season, are you questioning reliability? Compare that to AJ Burnett, who had Tommy John surgery, and then was unable to pitch late last season while the Marlins were in the Wild Card race.

 

Is he the ace of the staff talent wise? No, that would clearly be AJ. While Josh has some major talent, AJ is the one scouts have always drooled over.

 

You are willing to say that AJ clearly had more talent than Josh at this early stage in their careers? Josh is the pitcher whose fastball was ranked in the Top 3 in Baseball America, not AJ. You can not say that AJ is the one who scouts have always drooled over. If so was the case, why did Josh go in the 1st round, and AJ in the 8th?

 

AJ is the one who has clocked 98 miles per hour in the 9th inning of a complete game. AJ is the one who has thrown a no hitter, and the one who has set the record for most K's by a Marlin in a single game. AJ has finished a season before, and in 2002 was among the best pitchers in the majors, with over 200 K's and one of the best ERA's in the league. The best part was, he was still developing.

 

Surgery was a major change on his arm. While his previous feats are impressive, what do they have to do with him starting opening day 2005? Development-wise, how is AJ not the same old pitcher who throws a strong majority of fastballs? Beckett has developed his arsenal, working on a 4th, split-finger changeup to compliment his other three pitches. AJ mostly goes with 2 pitches, the fastball and the breakingball. Josh has 3 pitches that can be unhittable, and his fourth is very strong as well.

 

And among the most important factors, besides AJ clearly being the best pitcher on the staff, is that he is in his walk year.

 

When did it become so clear that AJ was and is the best pitcher on the staff? He has a losing record for his career, and his career ERA is 34 points higher than Beckett's.

 

What better way for a front office, who has yet to show much interest in resigning him mind you, that they care by entrusting him with the ball on the first game of the season?

 

And how does the team look in the offseason, if they disappoint the fans once again by failing to retain another player? It surely does not look good if they opening day starter departs after the season.

 

 

Opening day is a very important part of the season. It is important to get off on a good note, and Josh Beckett is the man to do that for the Marlins. Opening day is considered a big game. What other games has AJ pitched that have proven he can pitch confidently and well in pressure-packed games? We all have seen Beckett's great display during the World Series; he can clearly pitch well in big games, and handle the pressure. He has even shown an ability to thrive off the pressure. The Marlins should show confidence in their scouting department by starting a homegrown player whom they selected.

Just to clarify a brief point, there's a difference between saying something in a tone that clarifies that being a fact and one which takes an avenue of possibility but never ventures into that realm of being absolute truth. This was obviously misunderstood at the getgo.

 

Al Leiter should not be the Ace of the Marlins, however he is way more qualified for such a task than Josh if you would want the most experienced or most successful pitcher heading the rotation. AJ beats Josh out in other reasons as to why you pick an ace. This just means that Josh has absolutely no reason to be considered an Ace.

 

What is an ace? Someone who is chronically injured? Then suit Josh up, hell he could be the Ace and pitchers 2 and 3 all at the same time. So you are going to say that Josh is honestly more reliable than AJ, when the former has never (let me bold, underline, and italicize that), NEVER finished a season. That's durable? Compared to the man who has had one injury in his entire career? Yeah, I can see the connection there alright. That's so faulty I almost want to retire in amazement from the debate.

 

Also, Win-Loss record on a pitcher is about as reliable as the Service Engine Soon light on your car. It's a nice indicator, but you're better off judging by other matters. Josh, with the benefit of the second best team in Marlins history, went just 9-8. Nine wins on a World Championship team! While AJ, playing for a mediocre team in 2002, led the staff with 12. Regardless, let's look at pure stats. So, how many 200 K seasons has Josh had? Whole lot of none, while AJ has. How many times has Josh pitched over 200 innings? OK, that's unfair for Mr. Glass, how about 160? Oops, none. AJ's done it twice. How many times has Josh had at least two complete games, or more than one shutout? None, while AJ has done it twice and once respectively (leading the league in shutouts in 02). But he hasn't done much production wise, right? And AJ wasn't able to go for the Fish in the WC hunt, where was Josh half of the summer?

 

Another misunderstood statement, Josh went ahead of AJ because AJ was a late bloomer production wise. He didn't start blowing everyone away until Minor League ball. Since then, everyone has feared AJ more than Josh. If Josh was so much better than AJ, why would Curt Schilling (whom I think knows a tad about pitching) say AJ had "the best arm in the majors" ? One would think that there was no one better than the best, right? Or do I own the wrong copy of Webster's?

 

AJ isn't the same pitcher he was before, he can control his pitches. He couldn't do that in 2002, and have you seen the numbers he put up? Imagine now! Did you see the game against Colorado? He showed every pitch that game, striking out the majority of the 15 with knucklecurves. Jeromy Burnitz and Todd Helton both swung at pitches that bounced 5 feet or more in front of home plate. I've never quite seen Josh manage that. Ask Todd and Jeromy if AJ only throws fastballs. He also has a slider, a hard breaking two seamer which is essentially a 94+ MPH sinker, and a change up from time to time when he gets bored of dropping the Hammer to strike out the side. Josh has a split finger, but it sucks. There's a difference between 4 quality pitches and two that are good, one that sucks, and another that is solid but rarely used. Also, when in doubt, AJ doesn't just lean back and throw fastballs. He mixes stuff up to see if anything catches on. Becks has the Penny syndrome - when in doubt, throw as hard as you can - and this is evidenced by the 16 homers he allowed, second most on pitchers who were Marlin regulars.

 

I'm not going to get into a Front Office debate because I don't want to have to drop a hammer in two topics, but why do you automatically assume failure on the Front Office's part to resign AJ? He has said recently that he would stay here if the team showed interest in him enough. Hopefully they are smart enough to do so, that is yet to be seen. But if the FO took the initiative and made the extension sooner instead of later, they'd be set for the long run to worry about the guy with the horrible grooming habits who is going to be a big name free agent pitcher soon as well.

 

I guess having someone develop fully in your system isn't grounds to be an Opening Day starter. Who the hell are half the teams going to send out there then? No Kazmir for the Rays, Schilling for the Sox, Garcia for the other Sox, Hudson for the Braves, the list goes on and on and on. Opening Day isn't pressure packed at all - it's just alot of fanfare to the day that every team has a chance. As much as Josh has succeeded more in pressure packed playoff games, he has by the same sword failed more than AJ has. AJ made his living playing with a crappy offense and still managed great numbers and a respectable record. Josh has always been awarded a King's run support, numbers that would make Eric Milton and Russ Ortiz blush, and he still can't get the job done. Yet this shmuck is supposed to start Opening Day. Wouldn't he rather be with Leann anyways?

 

When did it become so clear that AJ was and is the best pitcher on the staff?

Something tells me you haven't been reading what I've been writing, because it clearly states that not only is AJ the better pitcher, but that Josh needs to get his act together just to be #2.

Late practice means I won't be able to respond before 48 hours is up. Hopefully I can get free 8th period and post my response.

My point was that career productivity rarely holds much weight in determining the staff's ace. If you don't want to go buy win percentage, what do you want to go by? Josh easily has the better career ERA. Since when did strikeouts become so important? You bring up the topic of strikeouts multiple times, yet when did that become so unbelievably important? Strikeouts hold little importance in determining who the better pitcher is. ERA is much more important than strikeouts.

 

Once again, you bring up the bogus topic of durability. Josh has had his fair share of injuries, but don't say AJ has not. Josh may have had more, but they were little things, such as blisters and skin tears, not reconstructive elbow surgery. AJ missed over a year of baseball; his time out is longer than Josh's time off the mound, adding Josh's injury time up. You want to talk about finishing a season? AJ was entirely useless for the final three weeks of the season, nursing the elbow injury. Both pitchers come in to this season with durability questions, so durability is not a deciding factor of who to start on opening day.

 

You want to bring up the subject of innings? The last two seasons, Josh has thrown 300.2 innings (not including his many playoff innings) to AJ's 143. The last time AJ had more innings in a year than Josh was 2002. Should that season, 1 major surgery and 2 full seasons ago, hold weight in determining the opening day starter? Heck, no.

 

If AJ was a late-bloomer, he wasn't the one that the scouts always drooled over. You contradicted yourself with that statement. Curt Schilling, while a great pitcher, is still only one man. A great compliment he gave AJ, sure, but Josh's fastball was ranked in the top three by Baseball America, not AJ's. Baseball America polled scouts, coaches, and players from across the league, so it's results wield the opinion of a larger percentage of those in baseball.

 

AJ rarely throws that slider. I watched him all year. We'll just go with quality pitches that they throw often. AJ has a very nice fastball and a knee-buckling curveball. Josh has a fastball nearly as good, a curveball just as knee-buckling, and a changeup that can rank among the leagues best.

 

The situation with AJ in the front office is not a very important part of our debate here. I may have misunderstood some of the things you said, but you misunderstood what I said about the front-office. Putting a player with the potential to walk after the season on the hill for opening day sets up the fan-base for another disappointment, in the case that he opts for a different team. I'm not saying he will walk - be sure to see that - but after how 2 fan favorites were let go this offseason, there is no value in starting AJ over Josh for the reason that AJ might not resign with the Marlins.

 

Starting opening day does not come with a large amount of pressure? Starting the first real baseball game for multiple months and attempting to start your season and your team on a high note? Opening day does come with a large amount of pressure. Josh has the better career ERA ? you haven?t produced any category that would be more important to how good a pitcher is than ERA ? and he has shown that he can handle the pressure. Josh is the pitcher to start opening day for the Fish in 2005. You talk about how much better AJ is, yet the only numbers you have to back that up are strikeouts! Strikeouts are not a necessity, and they are clearly not as important in determining the talent of a pitcher than ERA is.

That makes 48 hours...good debate.

That makes 48 hours...good debate.

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It ends at 8pm Eastern so still 15 mins.

I think there is some yet to be said.

I?d like to start off by saying I commend my opponent. It was a valiant effort, and a nice defense for occam?s razor ? the obvious choice. But in the end, it was just that ? the tall, obvious choice with horrendous pubescent hair growing from his chin. I digress, however, on the main point. It?s reason enough to not make him ace just so we don?t have to put up with that for six innings or however long until he dents his pinky or something, but we?d have to deal with that eventually anyways.

 

Here?s some quick thoughts for you, try to follow me a second though I know it might be tough to hop on my brain?s train but it?s a fun ride, I promise. You say I don?t want to use win loss record as a determinate for the Ace, but you do. Why, because Josh is .500 pitching for good teams for his career, or because AJ is one game under .500 pitching most of the time for mediocre teams? I can?t really see that point from my seat on the train, but can I borrow your binoculars? Why do I keep bringing up strikeouts? Because it?s really the only area where the two have any separation. The ERA is less than .5 difference for careers, careers in which AJ has logged over 200 more innings. Why are strikeouts important? Because they guarantee an out, when the ball is put in play you never know what the defense is going to do. Josh had the benefit of the best defense in baseball in 2003 bar none to boost his ERA, AJ on the other hand had a developing squad who made more miscues and more importantly didn?t get to as many balls as the 03 team did. Why else do I bring up strikeouts more? I don?t know, because they are both strikeout pitchers? If they are both of the same mold, but AJ fits that mold better, isn?t he in turn the better pitcher? Or is this golf, where the lower numbers win?

 

Here?s the difference between AJ?s injury and Josh?s shopping list of ailments. AJ has had one major injury, to this I have acknowledged many a time. However, that was one injury. An injury where you can fully recover, just ask John Smoltz and Kerry Wood. I?d say they?ve been just fine since TJ lent them a hand, wouldn?t you? Not only that, but AJ has never sat out a game because a stupid injury. Josh, on the other hand, well you never really know if he is going to play or not. Today he could be sitting out with a blister, tomorrow back problems, next start he?ll say his right hand hurts trying to make up for Leann leaving him. I can remember another Marlin who wouldn?t play during a dumb injury ? Ramon Castro.

 

Where was AJ his last three starts? Shut down by the team because the Marlins were clearly out of it, not shut down by AJ. If he had his way, he would have started every game down the stretch, he wasn?t allowed to. You still haven?t answered me, where was Josh during the summer? You know, that time when AJ and Carl were carrying the staff? When was Josh then? Oh, suffering from a blister. He seems to have a sexual attraction to those or something. And was Josh carrying the staff down the stretch when management shut AJ down? No, he was too busy choking to help Carl out. Yeah, I said it.

 

We can get into innings when Josh throws over 160. Until then, the word ?innings? and ?Josh Beckett? are not to be uttered in the same sentence.

 

Damn, my train is slowing down. It?s because I can?t comprehend this amazing statement:

?Josh's fastball was ranked in the top three by Baseball America, not AJ's?

 

If this is accurate, why the need for ?Josh has a fastball nearly as good? ? The train is stopping, don?t let it! And if you are going to go against your trusted Baseball America source in the topic of fastball discussion, then I guess that utters the whole paragraph starting with ?If AJ was a late-bloomer,? completely moot and I believe it should be stricken from the record so our poor audience doesn?t waste their time. If your judgment on the fastball is lacking, I shutter to think what kind of nonsense might have been invented for the other pitches. I think Todd Helton, one of the top 5 hitters in baseball, who has hammered Josh?s curveball but swung at an AJ curveball 5 feet in front of homeplate, thinks AJ's hamemr is better. So, who would one trust more, Todd Helton or Madman81? It really is a tough, tough call, but I?m going to have to reluctantly go with the perennial All Star.

 

Again, I?m not getting into the FO garbage just so you can take attention off of the real story and put it on Admin Beinfest and Jeffrey Loria. Sorry, maybe someone else would have fallen for it. I?ll take a flyer and I?ll be open to discussing it next time, but why don?t you stick to the real issue at hand rather than the office letting go of ?two fan favorites? ? Oh, because you?re not doing well in the other one. Nevermind, go back to talking about the Front Office.

 

By this philosophy, we should just not play the rest of the year and award the World Series Championship to the winner of the Opening Day game between the Marlins and the Braves. Is this game going to be on Global TV? Is there going to be a parade for the winner? Will Peter Gammons lobby for the winning pitcher to enter the Hall of Fame? No, no, and no, respectively. In the great span of things, if you go 5-1 the first week of the season but lost Opening Day as opposed to the second day, it makes about as much difference in the baseball world as someone farting in Alaska has on me this second. But regardless, I?ll play your flawed game. Josh has the better career ERA for now, but how does he do in stats where only the pitcher controls and he has no help from the defense? AJ has a better career Slugging Against, On Base Against, and OPS Against, plus that faithful Opponent Average. All of which have more to do with the man on the mound than ERA does. Since you don?t think that strikeouts for strikeout pitchers are important, how about those nice stats? Where are the amazing Josh?s shutouts, or complete games, or complete seasons for that matter?

 

In closing, it?s a nice little luxury to be able to have this debate. Many teams would give anything to have this kind of talent at the top of their rotation. Josh has Ace talent, as does AJ. But there is no question in my mind that AJ not only deserves this spot but he has to be the Ace. There is no way that starting off the year in any other way would be a good idea. Start the season off right instead of wrong, send your Florida Marlin Ace, #34 Allan James Burnett, to the mound against Tim Hudson of the Braves. That is, if you want to actually win the game and not have a blister problem.

Bascially nothing new - I have no time to reply. I thought 48 fours was 7:26 to 7:26, but okay.

This debate ends 8:00 PM Eastern on 1/6.

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Bascially nothing new - I have no time to reply. I thought 48 fours was 7:26 to 7:26, but okay.

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Debate closed...

Juanky wins. Great debate!

very good debate

It sucks to have to defend an arrogant a**hole :lol

Cool. Congrats to Madman for putting up a valiant fight for a bum.

Cool. Congrats to Madman for putting up a valiant fight for a bum.

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Congrats on winning :thumbup

 

I did my best, yet right away I thought "damn, I want AJ to start it anyway!"

One of the best debates yet. Congrats to both of you for a nice job!

:plain

Congratulations to both of you!

Awesome debate was a tough decision to make...good job to both of you

:plain

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:lol

 

 

yeah good debate