I'm with Todd as well. Baseball is a lot like stock car racing in this respect - everybody bends the rules to get an advantage.

Allow me to continue my previous thought.

 

I suspect when Frank went out and made this stink, the last people who wanted to see it was the umpires, who I suspect were not pleased to be put in this situation in the first place. They all know what's going on and know not to call it unless it's so flagrant it can't be ignored, and I'd bet money at least one them quietly inquired of Frank if "he really wanted to open this can of worms?"

 

BTW, I'm not raging against Frank Robinson, in the scheme of things this was just a little bit of theater, but it simply foolish and beneath a great Hall of Famer like him to do such a thing.

 

There's no question it's going to come back to haunt him one day and just for laughs I hope it's Jack McKeon who does so we all get to see it firsthand. I don't think this episode is over yet.

How can you compare intentionally injuring an opponent to using pine tar in a game? Donnelley cheated and he was caught. I really don't think it's a big deal.

 

When I played a Babe Ruth All-Star game, our manager coached third on a hot day with shorts and a t-shirt. Around the second inning, the opposing manager told the ump and the ump made skip put on pants- apparently, there was some rule that didn't allow you to wear shorts while coaching third. Did I think that coach was a jerk? Sure, because it didn't affect the game. Donnelley using pine tar does.

 

I guess I just don't "get it."

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Gee, you're the last guy I have a bone to pick with here, you and I are more often than not on the same sides of rational debate, but really the point of this exercise is to cast light on the fact that there are really TWO sets of rules that govern the game.

 

There's the ones in the rulebook that you keep alluding to (the third base coach in shorts for example) and the other, the unwritten ones that every player knows and lives by. The only reason I used the example of how cleating has disappeared from the game was because, like the use of pine tar for purposes other than to gain an advantage in doctoring the ball, it's generally considered fair practice and everyone does it.

 

You'll notice I've stayed away from using it to doctor the ball, which I happen to agree is beyond what's accepted. But to use a little to get a better grip or help a SS when the conditions are less than optimum, is done so frequently you'd have half the players in the majors serving suspensions if it was enforced the way Frank wanted it enforced that night.

 

I'm sure you go to many games. You see umpires checking balls all the time. It wasn't the umpires who had a problem with Donnelly, it was Frank, and that ought to tell you something. They see scrubbed and marked balls all the time. Half the time you see them rubbing one up, removing whatever's on it, and giving it to the catcher to throw back or throwing it back themselves.

 

There is in fact a conspiracy of silence on these kinds of things. If you're looking for a pure sport, look elsewhere.

There's a bit of an element of payback involved here. The feeling around baseball is that Guillen tipped him off as payback to the Angels for the way he was treated last season by them. Frank could have been doing it to show supoprt for his guy. More likely he saw a chance to eliminate a good reliever and increase his team's chances of winning. Is it a bit of gamesmanship? Sure it is. But his team won the game, so you better believe his guys loved it. Something like this happens every few years and everyone gets their panties in a wad over it, and then things go right back to the way they were. We all hear some lame excuse (my favorite being Joe Niekro's "I need the emery board to file my nails in the dugout) and laugh about it later. Heck, I'm laughing about it now. I didn't know Frank stayed awake past the sixth inning. He was fired up!

How can you compare intentionally injuring an opponent to using pine tar in a game?? Donnelley cheated and he was caught.? I really don't think it's a big deal.?

 

When I played a Babe Ruth All-Star game, our manager coached third on a hot day with shorts and a t-shirt.? Around the second inning, the opposing manager told the ump and the ump made skip put on pants- apparently, there was some rule that didn't allow you to wear shorts while coaching third.? Did I think that coach was a jerk?? Sure, because it didn't affect the game.? Donnelley using pine tar does.?

 

I guess I just don't "get it."?

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Gee, you're the last guy I have a bone to pick with here, you and I are more often than not on the same sides of rational debate, but really the point of this exercise is to cast light on the fact that there are really TWO sets of rules that govern the game.

 

There's the ones in the rulebook that you keep alluding to (the third base coach in shorts for example) and the other, the unwritten ones that every player knows and lives by. The only reason I used the example of how cleating has disappeared from the game was because, like the use of pine tar for purposes other than to gain an advantage in doctoring the ball, it's generally considered fair practice and everyone does it.

 

You'll notice I've stayed away from using it to doctor the ball, which I happen to agree is beyond what's accepted. But to use a little to get a better grip or help a SS when the conditions are less than optimum, is done so frequently you'd have half the players in the majors serving suspensions if it was enforced the way Frank wanted it enforced that night.

 

I'm sure you go to many games. You see umpires checking balls all the time. It wasn't the umpires who had a problem with Donnelly, it was Frank, and that ought to tell you something. They see scrubbed and marked balls all the time. Half the time you see them rubbing one up, removing whatever's on it, and giving it to the catcher to throw back or throwing it back themselves.

 

There is in fact a conspiracy of silence on these kinds of things. If you're looking for a pure sport, look elsewhere.

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Thanks for the explanation. While I still may not agree TOTALLY, I understand where you're coming from.

Stealing signs is a part of baseball, relaying pitch location is as well. Baseball has lots of cheating. 824451[/snapback]

Is it in the rulebook that you can't steal signs or relay pitch locations? Is it in the rulebook that you can't use pine tar as a pitcher? There is a difference.

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If you use pine tar the other team might know and they just say "what the hey weve got guys using it", but if you steal a sign you get beaned with a ball. Which violation is more harmfull to the game and the saftey of the players, the legal cheating or the illegal one that gives you a little bit more grip.