I'm sitting here scratching my head. I never realized that this many people despise Jeffrey Loria. I think he is a fantastic owner.

 

I am sick of people comparing 97 and 03 and talking about the two "firesales". Please stop comparing the two.

 

The 97 team was given NO CHANCE to defend their title. NONE.

 

The 03 team was given every reasonable opportunity to defend. They were given two years and failed.

 

Loria gave several key figures long term deals.

 

Loria went out and spent money for BIG TIME players: Pudge Rodriguez, Carlos Delgado...and South Florida slept.

 

Then, when the the 05 team disappointed, he got rid of players. But look at the team now. We are competing. The talent around here is exciting.

 

Loria has never been afraid to do what is needed to win.

 

Loria gave Pudge a 1 year deal and let him walk after the World Series. Derrek Lee was traded for Hee Seop Freaking Choi. Juan Encarnacion was shipped to Los Angeles. Carl Pavano didnt return either.

 

The WS team didnt have a legit chance to defend their title

Also, the Delgado deal was so backloaded that it is plainly obvious it wasn't entered into for the "long-term." I think it cost Loria less money to sign Delgado for one year that it cost for Pudge.

Carl Pavano signed for 4 years, $39 Million with the Yankees. Pavano had a great 03 season, but before that he was mediocre at best. Pavano was the 5th best guy on the rotation talent wise. Not worth that contract. Marlins made the right choice.

 

 

Pavano pitched for the fish in 04, and was our best pitcher that year winning 18 games. Then he went to the yankees.

Who cares if his contract was backloaded? Carlos Delgado played here in 05.

 

 

Carl Pavano signed for 4 years, $39 Million with the Yankees. Pavano had a great 03 season, but before that he was mediocre at best. Pavano was the 5th best guy on the rotation talent wise. Not worth that contract. Marlins made the right choice.

 

 

Pavano pitched for the fish in 04, and was our best pitcher that year winning 18 games. Then he went to the yankees.

 

You're right. My bad. I meant to say Pavano had a great 04 season.

He didn't let Pudge "walk". Pudge was aggressively pursued by the Marlins. They gave him a very fair offer. But, Boras was his agent and he signed with the Tigers for 5 years $50 Million. At the time I didn't think that was a good idea.

 

Carl Pavano signed for 4 years, $39 Million with the Yankees. Pavano had a great 03 season, but before that he was mediocre at best. Pavano was the 5th best guy on the rotation talent wise. Not worth that contract. Marlins made the right choice.

 

Encarnacion? Come on. I don't view him as a key ingredient to the 03 WS.

 

Derrek Lee went on to post numbers that no one was expecting. He was a tough one to see go, but they had to make that decision.

 

When you have a team that has a horrible stadium lease and ranks at the bottom in attendance year after year, you have to be careful about what you do. They kept the core players that weren't going to underperform their contracts.

 

Then the year after he brings Carlos Delgado to a team that should have made the playoffs.

 

I call that giving them a chance to defend.

 

aka weren't making significant money :thumbup

Marlins 2004 Players Making over $1M

(according to Baseball Reference.com)

 

Mike Lowell $ 6,500,000

Luis Castillo $ 4,666,667

Paul Lo Duca $ 4,066,667

Dave Weathers $ 3,933,333

Carl Pavano $ 3,800,000

Brad Penny $ 3,725,000

Juan Encarnacion $ 3,565,000

Armando Benitez $ 3,500,000

Jeff Conine $ 3,000,000

Alex Gonzalez $ 2,800,000

A.J. Burnett $ 2,500,000

Juan Pierre $ 2,400,000

Josh Beckett $ 1,509,375

Guillermo Mota $ 1,475,000

Chad Fox $ 1,200,000

 

:whistle

Marlins 2004 Players Making over $1M

(according to Baseball Reference.com)

 

Mike Lowell $ 6,500,000

Luis Castillo $ 4,666,667

Paul Lo Duca $ 4,066,667

Dave Weathers $ 3,933,333

Carl Pavano $ 3,800,000

Brad Penny $ 3,725,000

Juan Encarnacion $ 3,565,000

Armando Benitez $ 3,500,000

Jeff Conine $ 3,000,000

Alex Gonzalez $ 2,800,000

A.J. Burnett $ 2,500,000

Juan Pierre $ 2,400,000

Josh Beckett $ 1,509,375

Guillermo Mota $ 1,475,000

Chad Fox $ 1,200,000

 

:whistle

 

You cant have Encarnacion and Penny on the same list as Lo Duca and Mota

 

who are you kidding?

They all played in 04. They were paid some money by the team.

 

Also, the LoDuca/Mota acquisition proves that Loria gave the time a serious chance to contend. He upgraded in key positions and took on some payroll. He allowed Beinfest to make the moves necessary.

Who cares if his contract was backloaded? Carlos Delgado played here in 05.

 

My point was that he was similar to Pudge - a one-year rental. Although, we did get back a few nice players for Delgado. It is disingenious to say that Loria brought in Delgado to demonstrate a commitment to "long-term" winning. At the time, I thought it was one of the most significant FA signings in our team's history...and in many ways was a PR move to show the public that, despite losing so many players from the 2003 and 2004 teams, that our team was till committed to winning. However, looking back, his backloaded deal and eventual trade merely a year later tell me that the Delgado signing was never intended for the "long term"

I certainly see your point. But we can't really say for certain that his intention was to get rid of Delgado after one year. What if Delgado had been injured or underperformed? That contract would have been very difficult to move. And maybe if the team had played like they were supposed to or if the fans showed up and helped pay for Delgado and the other contracts, they would have kept him here. Fact is, we don't know for sure.

 

You can't deny that the 05 team was built to win. Win the entire thing. It fell way short of that, and didn't draw a significant amount of fans. You can't keep losing money like that.

 

Maybe one or two years down the line, I change my mind on Loria, but up until now I haven't disagreed with anything he's done (in Florida).

They all played in 04. They were paid some money by the team.

 

Also, the LoDuca/Mota acquisition proves that Loria gave the time a serious chance to contend. He upgraded in key positions and took on some payroll. He allowed Beinfest to make the moves necessary.

 

He upgraded at Catcher and Reliever while hurting the Rotation. And just because they all played for us in 2004, doesnt mean they were on the team at the same time. They cancel each other out

 

It's gonna suck in 3 years when all these guys that we have now are gonna start deserving more and more money and we'll have the gut payroll again

I certainly see your point. But we can't really say for certain that his intention was to get rid of Delgado after one year. What if Delgado had been injured or underperformed? That contract would have been very difficult to move. And maybe if the team had played like they were supposed to or if the fans showed up and helped pay for Delgado and the other contracts, they would have kept him here. Fact is, we don't know for sure.

 

You can't deny that the 05 team was built to win. Win the entire thing. It fell way short of that, and didn't draw a significant amount of fans. You can't keep losing money like that.

 

Maybe one or two years down the line, I change my mind on Loria, but up until now I haven't disagreed with anything he's done (in Florida).

 

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

Reading that article, I had a hard time understanding how all the pieces of the story connected. It read like a rant by some guy lamenting over the one that got away. Which makes sense since Dayn Perry was a Baseball Prospectus writer, a sabremetric journal which took a harsh stance against Selig and all things owners. Not only that, but Perry was a Expos fan. Like most who falsely believe baseball in Montreal could have been saved, he's chosen Loria as a 'scapegoat'. The franchise was heading toward its end before Loria even joined the club. The franchise had been given up on by local owners and sold to DC-area interests before Loria was even named managing member. It couldn't keep up with the competiting local revenues of better and more supportive markets. It seems he's having a hard time dealing with the death of his favorite franchise and chose a scapegoat.

 

 

 

Also for those creating their own fantasies for South Florida, contrary to public opinion, owners are not ATM machines. The MLB Executive Council will steer all candidates to fall in line with the hardliners that make up the council, a direction many personal testimonials say Loria is relunctant associate to.

He upgraded at Catcher and Reliever while hurting the Rotation. And just because they all played for us in 2004, doesnt mean they were on the team at the same time. They cancel each other out

 

 

 

Ramp, that's a baseball move, not a payroll move. It was a determination that the team's weak spots were catcher and bullpen while the rotation was a strength. We upgraded SIGNIFICANTLY at those two positions and while we did weaken the rotation, don't forget that we still had Pavano, Beckett, Burnett, and Willis...thats not exactly leaving the rotation in shambles.

 

And as far as the list goes, notice there wasn't a total at the bottom. It wasn't meant to show how much money the Marlins spent, it was meant to show that there were players on the team making good money (to contradict an earlier statement that the only players left weren't making good money). There's no need to cancel anyone out. Those four players did play at some point in 04 and did make good money.

I certainly see your point. But we can't really say for certain that his intention was to get rid of Delgado after one year. What if Delgado had been injured or underperformed? That contract would have been very difficult to move. And maybe if the team had played like they were supposed to or if the fans showed up and helped pay for Delgado and the other contracts, they would have kept him here. Fact is, we don't know for sure.

 

You can't deny that the 05 team was built to win. Win the entire thing. It fell way short of that, and didn't draw a significant amount of fans. You can't keep losing money like that.

 

Maybe one or two years down the line, I change my mind on Loria, but up until now I haven't disagreed with anything he's done (in Florida).

 

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

Do you believe a successful businessman like Loria finds operating losses acceptable?

Do you believe the other 29 (well, 15) enjoy keeping the Marlins afloat with annual revenue sharing transfers?

Do you believe they like their teams being beaten by this charity case?

And just what do you think they think of the slow progress to right the situation with the construction of a new stadium?

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

 

 

No, he's making money off the team this year, yes. But its meant to offset the GIANT losses from the previous years. The man lost a ton of money trying to make this team a winner, who can blame him for trying to recoup some of those losses?

 

And by the way, 7-2 in the fourth! I'm glad those bats finally woke up.

Loria conned S. Florida fans into buying season tickets for one product then offered another....and then refused to give refunds. He has totally gutted a team....to the point that he is making a good bit of money off revenue sharing. He has dangled the franchise to any city that is willing to make an offer. Through his actions he basically has given a big middle finger to all the remaining South Florida fans. He has acted like a man who is trying to extract every bit of value from a business venue before washing his hands of it. All this, and yet some on this board will defend him to his grave.

 

There should be no debate that this man is a terrible owner. Under probably any other ownership we would have had our stadium by now.

 

Incorrect. The deadline to buy or renew season tickets for the 2006 season occurred in the offseason, at a time when the team was torn down and rebuilt. There were some who opted to renew early late last season despite strong rumors of a significant restructuring for guaranteed playoff tickets if that sad sack of a team made the playoffs. I'd hardly call that conned. Unless you go around blaming all major league teams and 99% of businesses out there that don't have the open return policies of Circuit City and Bloomingdale's.

I certainly see your point. But we can't really say for certain that his intention was to get rid of Delgado after one year. What if Delgado had been injured or underperformed? That contract would have been very difficult to move. And maybe if the team had played like they were supposed to or if the fans showed up and helped pay for Delgado and the other contracts, they would have kept him here. Fact is, we don't know for sure.

 

You can't deny that the 05 team was built to win. Win the entire thing. It fell way short of that, and didn't draw a significant amount of fans. You can't keep losing money like that.

 

Maybe one or two years down the line, I change my mind on Loria, but up until now I haven't disagreed with anything he's done (in Florida).

 

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

Do you believe a successful businessman like Loria finds operating losses acceptable?

Do you believe the other 29 (well, 15) enjoy keeping the Marlins afloat with annual revenue sharing transfers?

Do you believe they like their teams being beaten by this charity case?

And just what do you think they think of the slow progress to right the situation with the construction of a new stadium?

This year Loria will lead MLB in Operating Profit and I'm sure you're high fiving yourself because of it. He ahs every right to make a ton of cash but it sucks for the fans when the owner puts profits first.

 

I'm certain the other owners are furious that Loria is pocketing the revenue sharing money rather than investing it in the team either through added players or by allocating it towards the stadium funding gap. Don't get confused, the reason this team is doing relatively well (9 games under .500) is because we have a Beinfest and not because Loria is a good owner.

 

Loria can solve the slow progress of the stadium situation by putting money in or getting the local business community behind the stadium deal. Neither is likely to happen.

Loria conned S. Florida fans into buying season tickets for one product then offered another....and then refused to give refunds. He has totally gutted a team....to the point that he is making a good bit of money off revenue sharing. He has dangled the franchise to any city that is willing to make an offer. Through his actions he basically has given a big middle finger to all the remaining South Florida fans. He has acted like a man who is trying to extract every bit of value from a business venue before washing his hands of it. All this, and yet some on this board will defend him to his grave.

 

There should be no debate that this man is a terrible owner. Under probably any other ownership we would have had our stadium by now.

 

you seem to forget, he is an owner...his loyalty comes in the form of income...and while it sucks to admit that...thats the way it is for every owner...and trust me...spending like he did last year on the team and still getting poor fan support, didnt exactly make him want to spend another 65 million on a team that couldnt draw...and personally..."gutting" this franchise the way he did made us competitive for the next 10 years at least...he is not a terrible owner and he is closer than any other previous owner to getting us a new stadium...again...he is no saint and has many skeletons in his closet...but lets not burn him at the stake yet...besides...how frustrated would you be dealing with arriola or whatever his name is on a day in, day out basis...its tough and he (along with the best front office in baseball) has done more for this franchise than anyone else has...and i give him props for that

Loria has every right to try to make as much money as he can but it sucks to be a fan of a team whose owner looks at the bottom line first and foremost as Loria is doing now. The Marlins are in line to make about $30 to $35 million this year which will put them at the top of MLB in Operating Income. That's great for Loria but it sucks for the fans. Don't confuse the great job done by Beinfest and his people with anything Loria has done. I also have a problem with people like Loria who lie about their finances while looking for welfare which is what he's doing with his hand out for public money for a stadium. If a billionaire wants taxpayers to build him a stadium he should open up his books.

What are you talkign about? $30-$35 million operating income? The Marlins make more than that (or atleast did, by a great margin, in previous years) and they've never been anywhere near the top. $30-35MM?!? Teams make just about that much just with their local broadcast rights contracts.

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

 

 

No, he's making money off the team this year, yes. But its meant to offset the GIANT losses from the previous years. The man lost a ton of money trying to make this team a winner, who can blame him for trying to recoup some of those losses?

 

And by the way, 7-2 in the fourth! I'm glad those bats finally woke up.

I think this year he'll recoup all the accumulated losses from when he bought the team.

 

 

 

 

Loria conned S. Florida fans into buying season tickets for one product then offered another....and then refused to give refunds. He has totally gutted a team....to the point that he is making a good bit of money off revenue sharing. He has dangled the franchise to any city that is willing to make an offer. Through his actions he basically has given a big middle finger to all the remaining South Florida fans. He has acted like a man who is trying to extract every bit of value from a business venue before washing his hands of it. All this, and yet some on this board will defend him to his grave.

 

There should be no debate that this man is a terrible owner. Under probably any other ownership we would have had our stadium by now.

 

you seem to forget, he is an owner...his loyalty comes in the form of income...and while it sucks to admit that...thats the way it is for every owner...and trust me...spending like he did last year on the team and still getting poor fan support, didnt exactly make him want to spend another 65 million on a team that couldnt draw...and personally..."gutting" this franchise the way he did made us competitive for the next 10 years at least...he is not a terrible owner and he is closer than any other previous owner to getting us a new stadium...again...he is no saint and has many skeletons in his closet...but lets not burn him at the stake yet...besides...how frustrated would you be dealing with arriola or whatever his name is on a day in, day out basis...its tough and he (along with the best front office in baseball) has done more for this franchise than anyone else has...and i give him props for that

Loria has every right to try to make as much money as he can but it sucks to be a fan of a team whose owner looks at the bottom line first and foremost as Loria is doing now. The Marlins are in line to make about $30 to $35 million this year which will put them at the top of MLB in Operating Income. That's great for Loria but it sucks for the fans. Don't confuse the great job done by Beinfest and his people with anything Loria has done. I also have a problem with people like Loria who lie about their finances while looking for welfare which is what he's doing with his hand out for public money for a stadium. If a billionaire wants taxpayers to build him a stadium he should open up his books.

What are you talkign about? $30-$35 million operating income? The Marlins make more than that (or atleast did, by a great margin, in previous years) and they've never been anywhere near the top. $30-35MM?!? Teams make just about that much just with their local broadcast rights contracts.

If you don't know the difference between "Operating Income" and "Revenues" then I really can't help you. That's pretty basic stuff that you should know before getting into this type of discussion.

"Don't confuse the great job done by Beinfest and his people with anything Loria has done."

 

Polo, yes Beinfest deserves most of the credit, but I think its unfair to say that Loria has nothing to do with it. When Beinfest has asked for special money, Loria has given it to him. I'd hardly call that doing nothing.

I certainly see your point. But we can't really say for certain that his intention was to get rid of Delgado after one year. What if Delgado had been injured or underperformed? That contract would have been very difficult to move. And maybe if the team had played like they were supposed to or if the fans showed up and helped pay for Delgado and the other contracts, they would have kept him here. Fact is, we don't know for sure.

 

You can't deny that the 05 team was built to win. Win the entire thing. It fell way short of that, and didn't draw a significant amount of fans. You can't keep losing money like that.

 

Maybe one or two years down the line, I change my mind on Loria, but up until now I haven't disagreed with anything he's done (in Florida).

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

Do you believe a successful businessman like Loria finds operating losses acceptable?

Do you believe the other 29 (well, 15) enjoy keeping the Marlins afloat with annual revenue sharing transfers?

Do you believe they like their teams being beaten by this charity case?

And just what do you think they think of the slow progress to right the situation with the construction of a new stadium?

This year Loria will lead MLB in Operating Profit and I'm sure you're high fiving yourself because of it. He ahs every right to make a ton of cash but it sucks for the fans when the owner puts profits first.

 

I'm certain the other owners are furious that Loria is pocketing the revenue sharing money rather than investing it in the team either through added players or by allocating it towards the stadium funding gap. Don't get confused, the reason this team is doing relatively well (9 games under .500) is because we have a Beinfest and not because Loria is a good owner.

 

Loria can solve the slow progress of the stadium situation by putting money in or getting the local business community behind the stadium deal. Neither is likely to happen.

He probably will. And that's a testament to his knack as a businessman. When did profiting become an evil act?

 

Pocketing revenue sharing transfers? I've heard accusations about former Rays boss Namioli (sp?). And the Pirates owner too. By legitimate voices, not some fan on the street with neither a case of facts or knowledge of economics. I suggest you look around the names in the Marlins' front office and their Marlins' holdings around the globe. We have some of the best scouts that are well compensated. Our front office features three of the most desired GM candidates in the league and everyone of them got raises to stay this offseason. We have camps in Europe, Venezuela, the Dominican and the U.S. All expenses consistent with the law and spirit of the revenue sharing transfers' use to improve field talent or player development. And do we even need to discuss the issues with Dolphins Stadium?

 

You are assuming that Loria can. By all accounts, he can not. Supposedly he can't stretch his credit that far. And apparently some don't consider Marlins baseball in South Florida a worthy investment. But there's another reason why he can't. MLB is on his back not to succumb to the demands of local politicians. MLB is pressing Loria to follow their protocols regarding the stadium negotiations.

 

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

 

No, he's making money off the team this year, yes. But its meant to offset the GIANT losses from the previous years. The man lost a ton of money trying to make this team a winner, who can blame him for trying to recoup some of those losses?

 

And by the way, 7-2 in the fourth! I'm glad those bats finally woke up.

I think this year he'll recoup all the accumulated losses from when he bought the team.

 

Loria conned S. Florida fans into buying season tickets for one product then offered another....and then refused to give refunds. He has totally gutted a team....to the point that he is making a good bit of money off revenue sharing. He has dangled the franchise to any city that is willing to make an offer. Through his actions he basically has given a big middle finger to all the remaining South Florida fans. He has acted like a man who is trying to extract every bit of value from a business venue before washing his hands of it. All this, and yet some on this board will defend him to his grave.

 

There should be no debate that this man is a terrible owner. Under probably any other ownership we would have had our stadium by now.

you seem to forget, he is an owner...his loyalty comes in the form of income...and while it sucks to admit that...thats the way it is for every owner...and trust me...spending like he did last year on the team and still getting poor fan support, didnt exactly make him want to spend another 65 million on a team that couldnt draw...and personally..."gutting" this franchise the way he did made us competitive for the next 10 years at least...he is not a terrible owner and he is closer than any other previous owner to getting us a new stadium...again...he is no saint and has many skeletons in his closet...but lets not burn him at the stake yet...besides...how frustrated would you be dealing with arriola or whatever his name is on a day in, day out basis...its tough and he (along with the best front office in baseball) has done more for this franchise than anyone else has...and i give him props for that

Loria has every right to try to make as much money as he can but it sucks to be a fan of a team whose owner looks at the bottom line first and foremost as Loria is doing now. The Marlins are in line to make about $30 to $35 million this year which will put them at the top of MLB in Operating Income. That's great for Loria but it sucks for the fans. Don't confuse the great job done by Beinfest and his people with anything Loria has done. I also have a problem with people like Loria who lie about their finances while looking for welfare which is what he's doing with his hand out for public money for a stadium. If a billionaire wants taxpayers to build him a stadium he should open up his books.

What are you talkign about? $30-$35 million operating income? The Marlins make more than that (or atleast did, by a great margin, in previous years) and they've never been anywhere near the top. $30-35MM?!? Teams make just about that much just with their local broadcast rights contracts.

If you don't know the difference between "Operating Income" and "Revenues" then I really can't help you. That's pretty basic stuff that you should know before getting into this type of discussion.

True. My mistake. Where are you getting your figure for $30-35MM anyway? I hardly doubt it accounts for all the Marlins expenses. And surely includes revenue sharing transfers which comes from non-operating sources.

"Don't confuse the great job done by Beinfest and his people with anything Loria has done."

 

Polo, yes Beinfest deserves most of the credit, but I think its unfair to say that Loria has nothing to do with it. When Beinfest has asked for special money, Loria has given it to him. I'd hardly call that doing nothing.

In that quote I'm referring to the '06 team. My major issue with Loria is this firesale. I've never trusted or liked him but I agree he tried to win in '03 and '05. Did he try to win in '04? I would lean towards "no" but that's debatable. This team ('06 team) is doing relatively well because of Beinfest and in spite of Loria, in my opinion.

 

I certainly see your point. But we can't really say for certain that his intention was to get rid of Delgado after one year. What if Delgado had been injured or underperformed? That contract would have been very difficult to move. And maybe if the team had played like they were supposed to or if the fans showed up and helped pay for Delgado and the other contracts, they would have kept him here. Fact is, we don't know for sure.

 

You can't deny that the 05 team was built to win. Win the entire thing. It fell way short of that, and didn't draw a significant amount of fans. You can't keep losing money like that.

 

Maybe one or two years down the line, I change my mind on Loria, but up until now I haven't disagreed with anything he's done (in Florida).

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

Do you believe a successful businessman like Loria finds operating losses acceptable?

Do you believe the other 29 (well, 15) enjoy keeping the Marlins afloat with annual revenue sharing transfers?

Do you believe they like their teams being beaten by this charity case?

And just what do you think they think of the slow progress to right the situation with the construction of a new stadium?

This year Loria will lead MLB in Operating Profit and I'm sure you're high fiving yourself because of it. He ahs every right to make a ton of cash but it sucks for the fans when the owner puts profits first.

 

I'm certain the other owners are furious that Loria is pocketing the revenue sharing money rather than investing it in the team either through added players or by allocating it towards the stadium funding gap. Don't get confused, the reason this team is doing relatively well (9 games under .500) is because we have a Beinfest and not because Loria is a good owner.

 

Loria can solve the slow progress of the stadium situation by putting money in or getting the local business community behind the stadium deal. Neither is likely to happen.

He probably will. And that's a testament to his knack as a businessman. When did profiting become an evil act?

 

Pocketing revenue sharing transfers? I've heard accusations about former Rays boss Namioli (sp?). And the Pirates owner too. By legitimate voices, not some fan on the street with neither a case of facts or knowledge of economics. I suggest you look around the names in the Marlins' front office and their Marlins' holdings around the globe. We have some of the best scouts that are well compensated. Our front office features three of the most desired GM candidates in the league and everyone of them got raises to stay this offseason. We have camps in Europe, Venezuela, the Dominican and the U.S. All expenses consistent with the law and spirit of the revenue sharing transfers' use to improve field talent or player development. And do we even need to discuss the issues with Dolphins Stadium?

 

You are assuming that Loria can. By all accounts, he can not. Supposedly he can't stretch his credit that far. And apparently some don't consider Marlins baseball in South Florida a worthy investment. But there's another reason why he can't. MLB is on his back not to succumb to the demands of local politicians. MLB is pressing Loria to follow their protocols regarding the stadium negotiations.

 

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

 

No, he's making money off the team this year, yes. But its meant to offset the GIANT losses from the previous years. The man lost a ton of money trying to make this team a winner, who can blame him for trying to recoup some of those losses?

 

And by the way, 7-2 in the fourth! I'm glad those bats finally woke up.

I think this year he'll recoup all the accumulated losses from when he bought the team.

 

Loria conned S. Florida fans into buying season tickets for one product then offered another....and then refused to give refunds. He has totally gutted a team....to the point that he is making a good bit of money off revenue sharing. He has dangled the franchise to any city that is willing to make an offer. Through his actions he basically has given a big middle finger to all the remaining South Florida fans. He has acted like a man who is trying to extract every bit of value from a business venue before washing his hands of it. All this, and yet some on this board will defend him to his grave.

 

There should be no debate that this man is a terrible owner. Under probably any other ownership we would have had our stadium by now.

you seem to forget, he is an owner...his loyalty comes in the form of income...and while it sucks to admit that...thats the way it is for every owner...and trust me...spending like he did last year on the team and still getting poor fan support, didnt exactly make him want to spend another 65 million on a team that couldnt draw...and personally..."gutting" this franchise the way he did made us competitive for the next 10 years at least...he is not a terrible owner and he is closer than any other previous owner to getting us a new stadium...again...he is no saint and has many skeletons in his closet...but lets not burn him at the stake yet...besides...how frustrated would you be dealing with arriola or whatever his name is on a day in, day out basis...its tough and he (along with the best front office in baseball) has done more for this franchise than anyone else has...and i give him props for that

Loria has every right to try to make as much money as he can but it sucks to be a fan of a team whose owner looks at the bottom line first and foremost as Loria is doing now. The Marlins are in line to make about $30 to $35 million this year which will put them at the top of MLB in Operating Income. That's great for Loria but it sucks for the fans. Don't confuse the great job done by Beinfest and his people with anything Loria has done. I also have a problem with people like Loria who lie about their finances while looking for welfare which is what he's doing with his hand out for public money for a stadium. If a billionaire wants taxpayers to build him a stadium he should open up his books.

What are you talkign about? $30-$35 million operating income? The Marlins make more than that (or atleast did, by a great margin, in previous years) and they've never been anywhere near the top. $30-35MM?!? Teams make just about that much just with their local broadcast rights contracts.

If you don't know the difference between "Operating Income" and "Revenues" then I really can't help you. That's pretty basic stuff that you should know before getting into this type of discussion.

True. My mistake. Where are you getting your figure for $30-35MM anyway? I hardly doubt it accounts for all the Marlins expenses. And surely includes revenue sharing transfers which comes from non-operating sources.

The Sun-Sentinel and another publication (I can't recall which one) have mentioned that number. If you take the '05 Forbes number and adjust it for things like the payroll reduction, the gross receipts reduction and the increase in revenue sharing that $30 to $35 million estimate is a reasonable one.

Who cares if his contract was backloaded? Carlos Delgado played here in 05.

 

My point was that he was similar to Pudge - a one-year rental. Although, we did get back a few nice players for Delgado. It is disingenious to say that Loria brought in Delgado to demonstrate a commitment to "long-term" winning. At the time, I thought it was one of the most significant FA signings in our team's history...and in many ways was a PR move to show the public that, despite losing so many players from the 2003 and 2004 teams, that our team was till committed to winning. However, looking back, his backloaded deal and eventual trade merely a year later tell me that the Delgado signing was never intended for the "long term"

 

Its obvious win or lose last year Delgado would have been gone this year. We can never prove that Loria intended to get rid of him, but common sense and a good gut feeling tell you that was the case. Delgado was signed as a one-year rental and trade bait.

 

I wonder if "the plan" by Loria was to do this exact same thing no matter what. Even if he had gotten a stadium deal last year, he could gut the team, take the losses on the field, make money on revenue sharing in order to have some extra loot to pay for players to make the team a real contender by the time the new stadium opens.

 

Make any sense ?

I certainly see your point. But we can't really say for certain that his intention was to get rid of Delgado after one year. What if Delgado had been injured or underperformed? That contract would have been very difficult to move. And maybe if the team had played like they were supposed to or if the fans showed up and helped pay for Delgado and the other contracts, they would have kept him here. Fact is, we don't know for sure.

 

You can't deny that the 05 team was built to win. Win the entire thing. It fell way short of that, and didn't draw a significant amount of fans. You can't keep losing money like that.

 

Maybe one or two years down the line, I change my mind on Loria, but up until now I haven't disagreed with anything he's done (in Florida).

 

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

Do you believe a successful businessman like Loria finds operating losses acceptable?

Do you believe the other 29 (well, 15) enjoy keeping the Marlins afloat with annual revenue sharing transfers?

Do you believe they like their teams being beaten by this charity case?

And just what do you think they think of the slow progress to right the situation with the construction of a new stadium?

 

Maybe some of the fault lies with Loria. I mean this is the 2nd time he's failed to get a stadium for a franchise. He seems to just make a lot of people not like him -- his personality turns a lot of folks off. Could that be part of the problem ? If that's the case he needs to realize that he needs to assemble a new staff for the stadium project and take himself and David Samson (who even turns me off -- he seems so "weasley" and mealy-mouthed) out of the negotiations and hire professionals to do the deal for him. Then if he fails he should get out of the game altogether. He may love baseball but he needs to realize he is not a good majority owner and is hurting the team and sell 50+%. He can remain a silent minority owner and still be a part of the game.

Loria conned S. Florida fans into buying season tickets for one product then offered another....and then refused to give refunds. He has totally gutted a team....to the point that he is making a good bit of money off revenue sharing. He has dangled the franchise to any city that is willing to make an offer. Through his actions he basically has given a big middle finger to all the remaining South Florida fans. He has acted like a man who is trying to extract every bit of value from a business venue before washing his hands of it. All this, and yet some on this board will defend him to his grave.

 

There should be no debate that this man is a terrible owner. Under probably any other ownership we would have had our stadium by now.

 

you seem to forget, he is an owner...his loyalty comes in the form of income...and while it sucks to admit that...thats the way it is for every owner...and trust me...spending like he did last year on the team and still getting poor fan support, didnt exactly make him want to spend another 65 million on a team that couldnt draw...and personally..."gutting" this franchise the way he did made us competitive for the next 10 years at least...he is not a terrible owner and he is closer than any other previous owner to getting us a new stadium...again...he is no saint and has many skeletons in his closet...but lets not burn him at the stake yet...besides...how frustrated would you be dealing with arriola or whatever his name is on a day in, day out basis...its tough and he (along with the best front office in baseball) has done more for this franchise than anyone else has...and i give him props for that

Loria has every right to try to make as much money as he can but it sucks to be a fan of a team whose owner looks at the bottom line first and foremost as Loria is doing now. The Marlins are in line to make about $30 to $35 million this year which will put them at the top of MLB in Operating Income. That's great for Loria but it sucks for the fans. Don't confuse the great job done by Beinfest and his people with anything Loria has done. I also have a problem with people like Loria who lie about their finances while looking for welfare which is what he's doing with his hand out for public money for a stadium. If a billionaire wants taxpayers to build him a stadium he should open up his books.

every single owner does that...every one...paul allen and the sonics and that mess and the seahawks and etc...loria when compared to other owners around the league is right on par...he just doesnt have as much money as them