That you ignore Loria's many contributions to the 2006 team is testament that you prefer owners that spend lavishly and keep quiet. If that is your dream owner, I can see why you may be disappointed by Loria. But let's not suggest he's had no positive role in the team's success. He does after all pump a ton of money into player development and was said to be involved in courting Girardi to the club.

 

I can't find the Sun-Sentinel report. So re: Forbes. Doing the math, that seems correct. Especially with the Marlins' share of MLBAM and merchandising ventures. However, Forbes includes revenue sharing transfers in their definition of operating income. Which it is not.

 

 

 

 

I certainly see your point. But we can't really say for certain that his intention was to get rid of Delgado after one year. What if Delgado had been injured or underperformed? That contract would have been very difficult to move. And maybe if the team had played like they were supposed to or if the fans showed up and helped pay for Delgado and the other contracts, they would have kept him here. Fact is, we don't know for sure.

 

You can't deny that the 05 team was built to win. Win the entire thing. It fell way short of that, and didn't draw a significant amount of fans. You can't keep losing money like that.

 

Maybe one or two years down the line, I change my mind on Loria, but up until now I haven't disagreed with anything he's done (in Florida).

 

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

Do you believe a successful businessman like Loria finds operating losses acceptable?

Do you believe the other 29 (well, 15) enjoy keeping the Marlins afloat with annual revenue sharing transfers?

Do you believe they like their teams being beaten by this charity case?

And just what do you think they think of the slow progress to right the situation with the construction of a new stadium?

Maybe some of the fault lies with Loria. I mean this is the 2nd time he's failed to get a stadium for a franchise. He seems to just make a lot of people not like him -- his personality turns a lot of folks off. Could that be part of the problem ? If that's the case he needs to realize that he needs to assemble a new staff for the stadium project and take himself and David Samson (who even turns me off -- he seems so "weasley" and mealy-mouthed) out of the negotiations and hire professionals to do the deal for him. Then if he fails he should get out of the game altogether. He may love baseball but he needs to realize he is not a good majority owner and is hurting the team and sell 50+%. He can remain a silent minority owner and still be a part of the game.

I'm sure we can find fault in Loria somewhere. But there's been three owners to ask for a new stadium and none have succeeded.

 

No I've never denied him any kudos he deserves. More power to him. But its obvious to anyone without an agenda, just as a casual fan that he's not helping the team right now. His actions as of late have been about as detrimental to the team off the field as they can be.

 

a) he tried to fire the possible candidate (by many) as Manager of the Year, in his rookie year.

b) he has failed so far to rally the local community behind his team, because he is percieved to be a carpet bagger and actually looking to take the team elsewhere

c) he has threatened to move the team, and didn't even hide the fact but was open about it. That doesn't court the hometown fans loyalty to your side.

d) he committed the ultimate sin (in the eyes of some fans -- not myself) of yet another fire sale. Again making locals think he just doesn't want to win, but to ruin baseball here so he can take it elsewhere. They don't trust him and I am afraid never will.

e) to this point he's refused to consider taking on local So Florida minority partners, yet expressed an interest in doing so if he moved the team to San Antonio. Again that doesn't foster a lot of good will towards the So Fla community. It makes many here feel his real agenda is to take baseball out of So Fla.

 

If you can dispell any of those I want to hear it, because I really would like to think Loria is not as bad a guy as it seems he is. I've tried to stay on the fence on him but lately he's making it very hard not to take the other side.

Loria conned S. Florida fans into buying season tickets for one product then offered another....and then refused to give refunds. He has totally gutted a team....to the point that he is making a good bit of money off revenue sharing. He has dangled the franchise to any city that is willing to make an offer. Through his actions he basically has given a big middle finger to all the remaining South Florida fans. He has acted like a man who is trying to extract every bit of value from a business venue before washing his hands of it. All this, and yet some on this board will defend him to his grave.

 

There should be no debate that this man is a terrible owner. Under probably any other ownership we would have had our stadium by now.

 

you seem to forget, he is an owner...his loyalty comes in the form of income...and while it sucks to admit that...thats the way it is for every owner...and trust me...spending like he did last year on the team and still getting poor fan support, didnt exactly make him want to spend another 65 million on a team that couldnt draw...and personally..."gutting" this franchise the way he did made us competitive for the next 10 years at least...he is not a terrible owner and he is closer than any other previous owner to getting us a new stadium...again...he is no saint and has many skeletons in his closet...but lets not burn him at the stake yet...besides...how frustrated would you be dealing with arriola or whatever his name is on a day in, day out basis...its tough and he (along with the best front office in baseball) has done more for this franchise than anyone else has...and i give him props for that

Loria has every right to try to make as much money as he can but it sucks to be a fan of a team whose owner looks at the bottom line first and foremost as Loria is doing now. The Marlins are in line to make about $30 to $35 million this year which will put them at the top of MLB in Operating Income. That's great for Loria but it sucks for the fans. Don't confuse the great job done by Beinfest and his people with anything Loria has done. I also have a problem with people like Loria who lie about their finances while looking for welfare which is what he's doing with his hand out for public money for a stadium. If a billionaire wants taxpayers to build him a stadium he should open up his books.

every single owner does that...every one...paul allen and the sonics and that mess and the seahawks and etc...loria when compared to other owners around the league is right on par...he just doesnt have as much money as them

I'll go out on a limb and say that our payroll (in percentage terms) is the lowest of any major professional team relative to other teams in its league in the last 30 years. I'm positive that that's a correct statement and if it's not then there's no more than one or two exceptions so I don't agree when you say Loria is right on par with other owners.

That you ignore Loria's many contributions to the 2006 team is testament that you prefer owners that spend lavishly and keep quiet. If that is your dream owner, I can see why you may be disappointed by Loria. But let's not suggest he's had no positive role in the team's success. He does after all pump a ton of money into player development and was said to be involved in courting Girardi to the club.

 

I can't find the Sun-Sentinel report. So re: Forbes. Doing the math, that seems correct. Especially with the Marlins' share of MLBAM and merchandising ventures. However, Forbes includes revenue sharing transfers in their definition of operating income. Which it is not.

 

 

 

 

 

I certainly see your point. But we can't really say for certain that his intention was to get rid of Delgado after one year. What if Delgado had been injured or underperformed? That contract would have been very difficult to move. And maybe if the team had played like they were supposed to or if the fans showed up and helped pay for Delgado and the other contracts, they would have kept him here. Fact is, we don't know for sure.

 

You can't deny that the 05 team was built to win. Win the entire thing. It fell way short of that, and didn't draw a significant amount of fans. You can't keep losing money like that.

 

Maybe one or two years down the line, I change my mind on Loria, but up until now I haven't disagreed with anything he's done (in Florida).

 

Do you believe Loria had to slash payroll to $15 million to keep from losing money? Just curious.

Do you believe a successful businessman like Loria finds operating losses acceptable?

Do you believe the other 29 (well, 15) enjoy keeping the Marlins afloat with annual revenue sharing transfers?

Do you believe they like their teams being beaten by this charity case?

And just what do you think they think of the slow progress to right the situation with the construction of a new stadium?

Maybe some of the fault lies with Loria. I mean this is the 2nd time he's failed to get a stadium for a franchise. He seems to just make a lot of people not like him -- his personality turns a lot of folks off. Could that be part of the problem ? If that's the case he needs to realize that he needs to assemble a new staff for the stadium project and take himself and David Samson (who even turns me off -- he seems so "weasley" and mealy-mouthed) out of the negotiations and hire professionals to do the deal for him. Then if he fails he should get out of the game altogether. He may love baseball but he needs to realize he is not a good majority owner and is hurting the team and sell 50+%. He can remain a silent minority owner and still be a part of the game.

I'm sure we can find fault in Loria somewhere. But there's been three owners to ask for a new stadium and none have succeeded.

 

And so what made him think he would get it done ? They both had better financial capabilites and failed so what made him think he would get it ?

 

I think it would have been better if the Marlins had been the team without an owner and Loria had gone to Washington. Then local So Fla interests could have purchased the team and we'd be well on the way to a new stadium.

 

I just afraid its never going to get done with now, and the Marlins will be forced to move on or contracted.

That you ignore Loria's many contributions to the 2006 team is testament that you prefer owners that spend lavishly and keep quiet. If that is your dream owner, I can see why you may be disappointed by Loria. But let's not suggest he's had no positive role in the team's success. He does after all pump a ton of money into player development and was said to be involved in courting Girardi to the club.

 

 

RFerry, I don't think we spend more on player development and the such than other teams. Do you have any reason to believe we outspend other teams in player development? I think the success comes from Beinfest and the job done by his group. From what I understood I thought Loria basically hired Girardi. I like Girardi but would have preferred if Beinfest hired his own manager. Maybe his own manager would have been Girardi or maybe not. I would rather have Beinfest making the baseball decisions and for Loria to stay out of it.

That you ignore Loria's many contributions to the 2006 team is testament that you prefer owners that spend lavishly and keep quiet. If that is your dream owner, I can see why you may be disappointed by Loria. But let's not suggest he's had no positive role in the team's success. He does after all pump a ton of money into player development and was said to be involved in courting Girardi to the club.

 

 

RFerry, I don't think we spend more on player development and the such than other teams. Do you have any reason to believe we outspend other teams in player development? I think the success comes from Beinfest and the job done by his group. From what I understood I thought Loria basically hired Girardi. I like Girardi but would have preferred if Beinfest hired his own manager. Maybe his own manager would have been Girardi or maybe not. I would rather have Beinfest making the baseball decisions and for Loria to stay out of it.

 

That's the way many teams are run -- the Marlins should take note. I'd much rather Admin making all those baseball decisions too, he hasn't had to many failures yet.

That you ignore Loria's many contributions to the 2006 team is testament that you prefer owners that spend lavishly and keep quiet. If that is your dream owner, I can see why you may be disappointed by Loria. But let's not suggest he's had no positive role in the team's success. He does after all pump a ton of money into player development and was said to be involved in courting Girardi to the club.

 

RFerry, I don't think we spend more on player development and the such than other teams. Do you have any reason to believe we outspend other teams in player development? I think the success comes from Beinfest and the job done by his group. From what I understood I thought Loria basically hired Girardi. I like Girardi but would have preferred if Beinfest hired his own manager. Maybe his own manager would have been Girardi or maybe not. I would rather have Beinfest making the baseball decisions and for Loria to stay out of it.

Without the numbers, but based solely on the reputations of Marlins employees, the number and reputation of our academies and some common sense, I think it's a big amount. You can't keep employees like that simply by being a good boss. You can't hold onto academies and camps without the money to construct and upkeep them. Just because you can't see the results on the field at Dolphins Stadium doesn't mean there's not a strong effort elsewhere.

 

So you're problem isn't necessarily that Loria's doing anythig to harm or disrupt the team. You have a fundmental problem with Loria's assumed role within the franchise. You prefer a quiet owner.

 

 

No I've never denied him any kudos he deserves. More power to him. But its obvious to anyone without an agenda, just as a casual fan that he's not helping the team right now. His actions as of late have been about as detrimental to the team off the field as they can be.

 

a) he tried to fire the possible candidate (by many) as Manager of the Year, in his rookie year.

b) he has failed so far to rally the local community behind his team, because he is percieved to be a carpet bagger and actually looking to take the team elsewhere

c) he has threatened to move the team, and didn't even hide the fact but was open about it. That doesn't court the hometown fans loyalty to your side.

d) he committed the ultimate sin (in the eyes of some fans -- not myself) of yet another fire sale. Again making locals think he just doesn't want to win, but to ruin baseball here so he can take it elsewhere. They don't trust him and I am afraid never will.

e) to this point he's refused to consider taking on local So Florida minority partners, yet expressed an interest in doing so if he moved the team to San Antonio. Again that doesn't foster a lot of good will towards the So Fla community. It makes many here feel his real agenda is to take baseball out of So Fla.

 

If you can dispell any of those I want to hear it, because I really would like to think Loria is not as bad a guy as it seems he is. I've tried to stay on the fence on him but lately he's making it very hard not to take the other side.

 

I was going to answer these line by line, but I keep coming back to the same argument. It's HIS team. Not mine. Not yours. Not ours. Not South Florida's. Certainly not Huizenga's or Arriola's or Lee's or Cisneros. This is HIS team. His franchise. He has to answer to only one body, that being his 29 fellow owners. He can do whatever he likes, whenever he likes, wherever he likes as long as he has the blessing of them. Know that, accept that and you'll understand everything you need to. But also know that it's also not in his interests to ruin the franchise (a franchise, not a town, not a team, not a cluster of supporters... a franchise). If he believes he, and his other 29 other owners (or vice versa), best stand to benefit by taking a certain action, he will do it.

Rferry, I must say that last post was of your's was one your weakest. As I see it, you had 2 valid posts to respond to. And you had no valid answer. "I think"? Where's the numbers? And on the second post, you don't address the points raised one by one because you have no valid answer. Point "a" about the Giraldi situation is something that affects the franchise. The same can be said for points b, c, d, and e. Saying Loria as the owner can do whatever he wants doesn't address the points. Point "a" and the others are valid points. To slough them off is like sloughing off a post on baseball strategy and second-guessing a manager on a bunt decision with the answer that "it's Giraldi's team and he can do what he wants...period". These points affect the franchise, and they are obviously more important to the future of the franchise than whether a bunt is called, or a pinch-hitter is used, both issues that you have had a valid answer to.

Rferry, I must say that last post was of your's was one your weakest. As I see it, you had 2 valid posts to respond to. And you had no valid answer. "I think"? Where's the numbers? And on the second post, you don't address the points raised one by one because you have no valid answer. Point 1 about the Giraldi situation is something that affects the franchise. Saying Loria as the owner can do whatever he wants doesn't address the point. Point 1 and the others are valid points. To slough them off is like sloughing off a post on baseball strategy and second-guessing a manager on a bunt decision with the answer that "it's Giraldi's team and he can do what he wants...period". These points affect the franchise, and they are obviously more important to the future of the franchise than whether a bunt is called, or a pinch-hitter is used, both issues that you have had a valid answer to.

 

see...i disagree with you and actually agree with rferry here...it is loria's team and when you sign the paychecks, you can do as you please...we may not like it...but the simple fact is baseball owners are there to make money...they really, honestly dont give a horse's ass whether we like it or not, if something threatens their cash flow, they will do whatever is needed to rectify that, including threatening to move a team, slashing payroll or whatever and not to bring politics into the equation (because god only knows im hated enough in the bullpen) but if the president=loria, congress=fans, and the supreme court=other owners...well the pres can veto anything congress sends through, but is semi responsible to the other owners...so basically the pres/owner can and will do whatever he wishes and doesnt really care what happens as long as the wallet is fat

All of that means Loria may eventually decide to sit on the cash flow in like they did for a while in Pittsburgh -- lovely :thumbdown ((((SIGH))))

When it all comes down to it, winning the World Series in 2003 really screwed up any plans Loria may have had to put the franchise in this city into the coffin. Although Loria gutted this team and brought payroll down to $15 Million, he may have inadvertanly saved it again when he hired Girardi because NO ONE (imo) could have done a better job with this team than what Joe has done with them. Let us not forget that Leyland bolted on this team after '98 because of the youth moment and John Boles never got the '99 squad playing quite like this.

 

 

I can't say that I hate him as much as Huizenga or Henry, but I absolutely loathe him and wait for the day when there is stabilty in this franchise and they won't need a man like Jeff Loria any where near this team.

Rferry, I must say that last post was of your's was one your weakest. As I see it, you had 2 valid posts to respond to. And you had no valid answer. "I think"? Where's the numbers? And on the second post, you don't address the points raised one by one because you have no valid answer. Point 1 about the Giraldi situation is something that affects the franchise. Saying Loria as the owner can do whatever he wants doesn't address the point. Point 1 and the others are valid points. To slough them off is like sloughing off a post on baseball strategy and second-guessing a manager on a bunt decision with the answer that "it's Giraldi's team and he can do what he wants...period". These points affect the franchise, and they are obviously more important to the future of the franchise than whether a bunt is called, or a pinch-hitter is used, both issues that you have had a valid answer to.

 

see...i disagree with you and actually agree with rferry here...it is loria's team and when you sign the paychecks, you can do as you please...we may not like it...but the simple fact is baseball owners are there to make money...they really, honestly dont give a horse's ass whether we like it or not, if something threatens their cash flow, they will do whatever is needed to rectify that, including threatening to move a team, slashing payroll or whatever and not to bring politics into the equation (because god only knows im hated enough in the bullpen) but if the president=loria, congress=fans, and the supreme court=other owners...well the pres can veto anything congress sends through, but is semi responsible to the other owners...so basically the pres/owner can and will do whatever he wishes and doesnt really care what happens as long as the wallet is fat

That's all well and good, but it doesn't address the issues that Marlins_fanz brought up any more than RFerry's doublespeak. Point a....the Giraldi situation. Sure, Loria has the right to hire and fire anyone. But his handling of the Giraldi situation is something that makes one question his ability to be the best owner this franchise could have. It affects the franchise for years. Point A is basically what this whole thread is.....Giraldi(do you like him or not). But for the future of the Marlins it doesn't matter what we care about Giraldi. We may be 50-50, but the general baseball community thinks he's done a great job, and he's got a legitimate shot to be named manager of the year. The idea that Loria may have mishandled the situation and fired the guy is something that will give pause to any future manager or general manager and it makes you question the state of Loria's mind. Nobody disputes it's his team, and he can do what he wants....but I imagine if Loria fired Beinfest tomorrow we'd have a lynch mob after him. Nobody would defend that irresponsible ownership.

That's all well and good, but it doesn't address the issues that Marlins_fanz brought up any more than RFerry's doublespeak. Point a....the Giraldi situation. Sure, Loria has the right to hire and fire anyone. But his handling of the Giraldi situation is something that makes one question his ability to be the best owner this franchise could have. It affects the franchise for years. Point A is basically what this whole thread is.....Giraldi(do you like him or not). But for the future of the Marlins it doesn't matter what we care about Giraldi. We may be 50-50, but the general baseball community thinks he's done a great job, and he's got a legitimate shot to be named manager of the year. The idea that Loria may have mishandled the situation and fired the guy is something that will give pause to any future manager or general manager and it makes you question the state of Loria's mind. Nobody disputes it's his team, and he can do what he wants....but I imagine if Loria fired Beinfest tomorrow we'd have a lynch mob after him. Nobody would defend that irresponsible ownership.

 

Beinfest > Girardi. If Loria fired Beinfest, 100% of the fanbase would hunt him down and kill him. If Loria fired Girardi, 50% of the fanbase would weep, and the other 50% would throw a parade...and I'd bring the confetti.

 

As for RFerry's position that Loria can pretty much do whatever he wants because it is his team, I agree with that only to a certain point. Sports in general is a unique business, and it is not merely a product of the typical supply/demand marketplace. Many sports owners receive public money, and Baseball itself is subject to congressional oversight. If Lora builds hs own ballpark with no public money, and funds his team with 100% of hs own money, then yes...Lora can do what he wants. But, as soon as he receves public funding...that argument loses its merit. As that hasn't happened just yet, I see RFerry's point.

Id kill for Loria to put this team up for sale

 

For once, I agree 100R%, Ramp.

Id kill for Loria to put this team up for sale

 

For once, I agree 100R%, Ramp.

I do also. Our best Team Owner was by Far Henry. BTW wanna clarify Loria and Henry are the only ones to pursue a stadium. H Wayne never had an interest in baseball (besides he owns Dolphin Stadium).

Loria conned S. Florida fans into buying season tickets for one product then offered another....and then refused to give refunds. He has totally gutted a team....to the point that he is making a good bit of money off revenue sharing. He has dangled the franchise to any city that is willing to make an offer. Through his actions he basically has given a big middle finger to all the remaining South Florida fans. He has acted like a man who is trying to extract every bit of value from a business venue before washing his hands of it. All this, and yet some on this board will defend him to his grave.

 

There should be no debate that this man is a terrible owner. Under probably any other ownership we would have had our stadium by now.

 

 

First of all what the team did to season ticket holders near the end of the '05 season is what most teams do. Say you can get your seats for the play offs if you renew your season ticket plans for the following season. And it was said up front that the $$$ was not refundable. In no uncertain terms. What you are not saying is that those season ticket holders did not have to buy the full season package again, just some sort of package, which is what alot of fans did do. And then the team did something out of the ordinary. They allowed fans to split up the payments for those plans in 4 payments and even to downgrade to lesser packages after it became apparent the team wasn't going to make the play offs. Or did you not notice the huge decrease in season tickets sold this year and the huge drop in attendance this year?? Your TV dosen't show the stands at home games??

What has Loria done for the baseball fans of South Florida?? He bought a team that had two previous owners that could not get a stadium issue done. He came into a scenario with no fan base at all. With all that going against him he spent his $$$ and built a championship team by firing his long time friend as manager and hiring another manager that everyone else thought he was crazy to do. He then paid for two more winning seasons. He paid and paid and paid until he could no longer afford to pay for more.

He then downloaded expenditures so that his company could make money in a situation that he could not control in the hopes to get into a situation that he could control. In doing so he not only gave us an exciting team but also one that is still in the WC chase. He has the team on the verge of a stadium deal that the other owners could not even come close to. At a time when the attendance figures look to break Marlins records for season all time lows.

What has South Florida done for Loria?? In your type of words, flipped him the middle finger in every way possible. They didn't show up for games until it looked like they were going to be able to be a champion and then still kept the attendance figures near the bottom of the list in MLB. For 3 straight winning years. By doing that they effectively showed our state leaders that South Florida could care in the least if MLB survived here so they blocked any and all attempts for state money to help build a new palace. And then the so called fans blamed Loria for that and called him greedy. "Greedy" in this term means he should be spending his money for their good times watching the team on TV. If they want to see what greedy and selfish look like they only have to look in a mirror.

If the stadium deal gets done, and it looks like it will, then you can all thank Loria and company for it. If the deal gets done then it will be because of the pay roll cut and the threats of moving to another state. If the deal gets done it will be BECAUSE of this ownership and not despite it. If the deal gets done it will be DESPITE the fan base and not because of it.

I'm sitting here scratching my head. I never realized that this many people despise Jeffrey Loria. I think he is a fantastic owner.

 

I am sick of people comparing 97 and 03 and talking about the two "firesales". Please stop comparing the two.

 

The 97 team was given NO CHANCE to defend their title. NONE.

 

The 03 team was given every reasonable opportunity to defend. They were given two years and failed.

 

Loria gave several key figures long term deals.

 

Loria went out and spent money for BIG TIME players: Pudge Rodriguez, Carlos Delgado...and South Florida slept.

 

Then, when the the 05 team disappointed, he got rid of players. But look at the team now. We are competing. The talent around here is exciting.

 

Loria has never been afraid to do what is needed to win.

 

Loria gave Pudge a 1 year deal and let him walk after the World Series. Derrek Lee was traded for Hee Seop Freaking Choi. Juan Encarnacion was shipped to Los Angeles.

 

The WS team didnt have a legit chance to defend their title

 

Loria gave Pudge a huge one year deal when no other team would, and it worked. Loria gave Pudge an opportunity to still make great $$$ and Pudge decided to get greedy and went to the Tigers who basically gave him everything his greedy little heart desired to just put fannies in the seats there and all of South Florida nd baseball were laughing at them at the time.

Lee was traded so we could afford the resigning to long term contracts of Lowell and Castillo. At the time Lee was a .250 hitter with one Gold Glove. And all of South Florida applauded the choice at that time to keep a fan fav at 3B and probably the best DP combo in all of baseball in Castillo and Gonzo.

This team was given every opportunity to defend it's WS Championship and South Florida still ignored them. I'm not sure if you have a poor memory or just a selective one.

That's all well and good, but it doesn't address the issues that Marlins_fanz brought up any more than RFerry's doublespeak. Point a....the Giraldi situation. Sure, Loria has the right to hire and fire anyone. But his handling of the Giraldi situation is something that makes one question his ability to be the best owner this franchise could have. It affects the franchise for years. Point A is basically what this whole thread is.....Giraldi(do you like him or not). But for the future of the Marlins it doesn't matter what we care about Giraldi. We may be 50-50, but the general baseball community thinks he's done a great job, and he's got a legitimate shot to be named manager of the year. The idea that Loria may have mishandled the situation and fired the guy is something that will give pause to any future manager or general manager and it makes you question the state of Loria's mind. Nobody disputes it's his team, and he can do what he wants....but I imagine if Loria fired Beinfest tomorrow we'd have a lynch mob after him. Nobody would defend that irresponsible ownership.

 

Beinfest is getting all the credit here. And he should get alot of it. But like someone else has said, every time Admin has asked for more money to make a shot at the whole tamale Loria has come through. BTW Why is no one giving credit for Loria bringing Admin into the fold in the first place????

Does Loria have faults?? Yep. Only those that think their fecal matter dosen't stink would think they are any better. Has he given every thing he could to the market here at his own expense?? Probably debateable but I would say yea. Time for him to recoup some of that $$$ IMO. But then of course I do more than sit at home and watch the team on TV only to complain about them.

That's all well and good, but it doesn't address the issues that Marlins_fanz brought up any more than RFerry's doublespeak. Point a....the Giraldi situation. Sure, Loria has the right to hire and fire anyone. But his handling of the Giraldi situation is something that makes one question his ability to be the best owner this franchise could have. It affects the franchise for years. Point A is basically what this whole thread is.....Giraldi(do you like him or not). But for the future of the Marlins it doesn't matter what we care about Giraldi. We may be 50-50, but the general baseball community thinks he's done a great job, and he's got a legitimate shot to be named manager of the year. The idea that Loria may have mishandled the situation and fired the guy is something that will give pause to any future manager or general manager and it makes you question the state of Loria's mind. Nobody disputes it's his team, and he can do what he wants....but I imagine if Loria fired Beinfest tomorrow we'd have a lynch mob after him. Nobody would defend that irresponsible ownership.

 

Beinfest > Girardi. If Loria fired Beinfest, 100% of the fanbase would hunt him down and kill him. If Loria fired Girardi, 50% of the fanbase would weep, and the other 50% would throw a parade...and I'd bring the confetti.

 

As for RFerry's position that Loria can pretty much do whatever he wants because it is his team, I agree with that only to a certain point. Sports in general is a unique business, and it is not merely a product of the typical supply/demand marketplace. Many sports owners receive public money, and Baseball itself is subject to congressional oversight. If Lora builds hs own ballpark with no public money, and funds his team with 100% of hs own money, then yes...Lora can do what he wants. But, as soon as he receves public funding...that argument loses its merit. As that hasn't happened just yet, I see RFerry's point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its 50/50 on this board in terms of favorability to Girardi.

 

But I would put the general fan base at closer to 70%/30% in favor of Girardi.

 

 

 

Its only 50/50 on this board because some of the hardcore fans feel compelled to come up with reasons for losses. In the end, its always easier to second guess the manager.

 

 

Example: If Pitcher A was brought in for middle relief and gets shelled, its all to easy for the fan to say, "why didnt he bring in Pitcher B?!!!?".

 

 

 

Day in and day out second guessing/bashing of a baseball manager is the easy way out. The reality of it all is that baseball managers do not have an enormous effect on the outcome of the games.

No I've never denied him any kudos he deserves. More power to him. But its obvious to anyone without an agenda, just as a casual fan that he's not helping the team right now. His actions as of late have been about as detrimental to the team off the field as they can be.

 

a) he tried to fire the possible candidate (by many) as Manager of the Year, in his rookie year.

b) he has failed so far to rally the local community behind his team, because he is percieved to be a carpet bagger and actually looking to take the team elsewhere

c) he has threatened to move the team, and didn't even hide the fact but was open about it. That doesn't court the hometown fans loyalty to your side.

d) he committed the ultimate sin (in the eyes of some fans -- not myself) of yet another fire sale. Again making locals think he just doesn't want to win, but to ruin baseball here so he can take it elsewhere. They don't trust him and I am afraid never will.

e) to this point he's refused to consider taking on local So Florida minority partners, yet expressed an interest in doing so if he moved the team to San Antonio. Again that doesn't foster a lot of good will towards the So Fla community. It makes many here feel his real agenda is to take baseball out of So Fla.

 

If you can dispell any of those I want to hear it, because I really would like to think Loria is not as bad a guy as it seems he is. I've tried to stay on the fence on him but lately he's making it very hard not to take the other side.

 

 

Okay, that first line...come on. Are you saying that anyone that doesn't vilify Loria has an "agenda".

 

As for the points...I'll give my thoughts on them....

 

a) the Girardi Near Firing: Let me begin by admitting that I am not a Girardi fan. I realize if I were a Girardi fan I'd be more upset about this. I certainly see how Loria deserves some of the blame for that fiasco, but do you guys fail to see why Girardi deserves it as well? Obviously I dont know the entire story (and neither do any of you unless you were in that closed door meeting), but I view the problem as being both of their faults.

b) he has failed so far to rally the local community because no one can. Look at the stuff he's done...he brought a WS team here, fielded winning teams that should have competed for two years after and still nobody cared. Exactly what would it take to "rally the local community"? The local community loves a winner. If you're not a winner, they don't care. Even the Dolphins drew far fewer fans to games the last couple of years when they weren't winning. So Fla is all about the Heat now, but before Shaq got here you couldn't give a ticket away. This community is rallied by winning, then the "fans" come out.

c) Why shouldn't he threaten to move the team? He can't a stadium deal done because the state gives everyone else money and not him....and the FANS DON"T SHOW UP. Also, has he actually done it? The San Antonio deadline came and went and they didn't go. If he was so eager to leave, he would've done so already.

d) again, I refuse to compare 98 and 06. In 06 we gave up contracts we couldn't afford and got an enormous amount of talent in return. The reason we were able to get all that talent is because teams knew we didn't HAVE to sell. We gave up talent ONLY when we got good offers in return.

d-2) most of your other arguments have some validity, and I can certainly see why you feel the way you do even though I don't agree with you, but the "he doesn't want to win" argument needs to stop. Its weak. If he didn't want to win would he have brought in Pudge and Delgado? (in the past, but still part of his record). If he didn't want to win would he show up to all those games and cheer like the rest of the fans? The guy is a FAN. He loves this team. This is the one argument where I fail to see any truth to it.

e) I have no argument for this one. I think he would do well bringing in other people. And would do well getting rid of Samson (atleast as the head of the stadium deal crew).

I believe on "e" above, that is categorically wrong.

 

While San Antonio was insisting on some local minority interest in the club, and several people stepped forward to say they'd like to be that party, I don't believe the Marlins ever openly said, "sure we want more partners".

 

The Marlins already have a number of minority partners from both the Expos and at least one, and I believe two, of John Henry's minority partners (who he may or not have inherited himself from Huizenga).

 

There are issues with bringing in another partner that unless one understands, as or has knowledge of minority partner rights, both generally and in the specific with this LP, that might mean that any $$$ brought in by bringing a new partner, simply may wind up in the hands of the minority partners who may have "my stock is sold first" clauses in their agreements.

 

The point is just saying, he should do this or that, in this case bring in a minority partner, may have so many legal hurdles that nothing is accomplished by doing so.

Without the numbers, but based solely on the reputations of Marlins employees, the number and reputation of our academies and some common sense, I think it's a big amount. You can't keep employees like that simply by being a good boss. You can't hold onto academies and camps without the money to construct and upkeep them. Just because you can't see the results on the field at Dolphins Stadium doesn't mean there's not a strong effort elsewhere.

RFerry, if you're referring to international academies, I don't the how many academies we have and I don't know about their reputations but I do know that no player signed as an international free agent under Loria has made it and from what I understand we have cut back on out international scouting. There was a note in the Herald's baseball Q&A a few weeks ago about discussing how we've cut back on Latin America spending. Not much is written about the international stuff but I remember after Chavez took over we closed our Venezuelan operations. I don't know if they were re-opened. I hope so.

 

Regarding your point that the owner can do whatever he wants, I agree the owner can do whatever he wants but I don't have to like everything he does and because Loria can do whatever he wants is the reason if taxpayers give him a stadium I would include a clause in there regarding minimum payroll requirements. Don't assume that just because there's a new stadium that payroll increases. There are too many examples where that didn't happen. I would also include a clause in which he has to cover the stadium's losses in case the stadium is a money loser. It's one thing to buy him a stadium but when the stadium is a money loser then taxpayers are on the hook for perpetuity and that's something else.

That's all well and good, but it doesn't address the issues that Marlins_fanz brought up any more than RFerry's doublespeak. Point a....the Giraldi situation. Sure, Loria has the right to hire and fire anyone. But his handling of the Giraldi situation is something that makes one question his ability to be the best owner this franchise could have. It affects the franchise for years. Point A is basically what this whole thread is.....Giraldi(do you like him or not). But for the future of the Marlins it doesn't matter what we care about Giraldi. We may be 50-50, but the general baseball community thinks he's done a great job, and he's got a legitimate shot to be named manager of the year. The idea that Loria may have mishandled the situation and fired the guy is something that will give pause to any future manager or general manager and it makes you question the state of Loria's mind. Nobody disputes it's his team, and he can do what he wants....but I imagine if Loria fired Beinfest tomorrow we'd have a lynch mob after him. Nobody would defend that irresponsible ownership.

 

Beinfest > Girardi. If Loria fired Beinfest, 100% of the fanbase would hunt him down and kill him. If Loria fired Girardi, 50% of the fanbase would weep, and the other 50% would throw a parade...and I'd bring the confetti.

 

As for RFerry's position that Loria can pretty much do whatever he wants because it is his team, I agree with that only to a certain point. Sports in general is a unique business, and it is not merely a product of the typical supply/demand marketplace. Many sports owners receive public money, and Baseball itself is subject to congressional oversight. If Lora builds hs own ballpark with no public money, and funds his team with 100% of hs own money, then yes...Lora can do what he wants. But, as soon as he receves public funding...that argument loses its merit. As that hasn't happened just yet, I see RFerry's point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its 50/50 on this board in terms of favorability to Girardi.

 

But I would put the general fan base at closer to 70%/30% in favor of Girardi.

 

 

 

Its only 50/50 on this board because some of the hardcore fans feel compelled to come up with reasons for losses. In the end, its always easier to second guess the manager.

 

 

Example: If Pitcher A was brought in for middle relief and gets shelled, its all to easy for the fan to say, "why didnt he bring in Pitcher B?!!!?".

 

 

 

Day in and day out second guessing/bashing of a baseball manager is the easy way out. The reality of it all is that baseball managers do not have an enormous effect on the outcome of the games.

IMO opinion, the people who like Girardi like him for "intangibles" that they make up in their head...such as, "he's such a great motivator"....or "nobody would have gotten this kind of production out of this group"....or "he has turned lemons into lemonade with a $15 million payroll."

 

I think the only way you can objectively judge a manager is in "in-game management." Otherwise, you opinions are not grounded in logic. You may think Girardi is a "great motivator," but you have NOTHING to base that on. If the the D-Train says he is, does that make it so? D-Train also said Trader Jack was a great motivator for him personally, because he felt like when he gave him the ball he was expected to peform...BUT, after Jack left, many players openly said they didn't care for him. The players public statements don't count...what else are they supposed to say?? They don't like him?? I don't think so.

 

If you can't base a manager on his "in-game management skills," what basis do you have to think he is any good?

 

Once again, IMO most of the public likes Girardi because he has name recognition, a former WS champ and Yankee persona, and is a young guy who has a likeable personality. And, the media seems to give him all the credit for our team. But anyone who actually WATCHES the games, knows his "in-game management" is quetionable at best, and other times is downright atrocious. Also, most of the people who follow the Marlins closely (not the general media) know that our team has TONS of talent...we are not a collection of minimum wage castaways that nobody else wants. Our payroll is not indicative of our talent.

 

I think our biggest difference of opinion here is that I think the manager can actually have a large impact on our play and our overall record. As a Marlins fan, it suprises me that you don't see it that way, considering that only time we ever won anything we had LEYLAND and JACK McKeon (who receives a large portion of the credit for salvaging our season in 2003).

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think the only way you can objectively judge a manager is in "in-game management." Otherwise, you opinions are not grounded in logic. You may think Girardi is a "great motivator," but you have NOTHING to base that on. If the the D-Train says he is, does that make it so? D-Train also said Trader Jack was a great motivator for him personally, because he felt like when he gave him the ball he was expected to peform...BUT, after Jack left, many players openly said they didn't care for him. The players public statements don't count...what else are they supposed to say?? They don't like him?? I don't think so.

 

If you can't base a manager on his "in-game management skills," what basis do you have to think he is any good?

 

Once again, IMO most of the public likes Girardi because he has name recognition, a former WS champ and Yankee persona, and is a young guy who has a likeable personality. And, the media seems to give him all the credit for our team. But anyone who actually WATCHES the games, knows his "in-game management" is quetionable at best, and other times is downright atrocious. Also, most of the people who follow the Marlins closely (not the general media) know that our team has TONS of talent...we are not a collection of minimum wage castaways that nobody else wants. Our payroll is not indicative of our talent.

 

I think our biggest difference of opinion here is that I think the manager can actually have a large impact on our play and our overall record. As a Marlins fan, it suprises me that you don't see it that way, considering that only time we ever won anything we had LEYLAND and JACK McKeon (who receives a large portion of the credit for salvaging our season in 2003).

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

 

Definitely agree with you here.

Pierremvp1, when it comes to these discussions, it's almost like debating politics or religion. No one really knows. Some may have some insights that the other hadn't considered. But that you can't get past we're all ignorant. And will always be so.

 

My point was that we can not be sure that the money isn't being spent elsewhere as some evidence suggests. That just because we don't see it on the field now doesn't mean some effort has been made elsewhere. That what we know is the simpliest of simplifications.

 

If that's doublespeak, so be it.

 

DelGot, obviously. That's why I appended that it's not in his interests to ruin the franchise. He stands to gain when they profit. He stands to lose when they don't. He stands to lose when he alienates a viable market. He stands to gain by opening up options in other markets. He stands to gain by winning a championship. He stands to lose by fielding a constant loser. He's not doing the things he does to spite us, he's doing the things he does to help himself. On some level, he must reconcile every decision he makes. Even if the answer is simply: it's the greater of two evils.