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Questions related to today's politics, war, and 2008


FIUMarlinfan
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Hey guys, ive been a long time member here and limited poster. Im an INR/Poli Sci major, so I always like to hear peoples opinions on various issues. Just wanted to post some questions and see your answers. Especially interested in hearing Accord, Fox, F_M, etcs thoughts. I have no interest in hearing Capes cause, well, ive never seen a more biased person towards politics. I mean, seriously, Harris over Nelson? lol.

 

For conservatives/Republicans

 

1.) If Clinton went into Iraq, how would you feel about this war?

 

 

2.) Wouldnt you agree that occupation of a foreign nation, spreading democray and capitalism is actually a liberal idea?(That is liberal international theory, btw) So if some of you are SO against Liberalism, why support the war?

 

3.) Arent you the LEAST bit upset that Bush admitted to lying bout the War in Iraq, saying 9/11 had nothing to do with it? Thus, isint at least an investigation important?

 

 

4.) Isint it very unfair to call Democrats un-American? Considering there are over 50 veterans running for office/re-election this year as Dems. Arent men like Murtha,Clark, Kerry, etc who have fought for our nation really patriots?

 

For Accord in specific(or any soldier/veteran/anyone)

 

Would you support in 2008 for example, my personal favorite and PAC leader Wesley Clark, a decorated veteran, moderate, and expierenced in military and international affairs over another non-experienced, christian right Repubnlican like Bush? Or do you simply not vote for Clark because he has the 4th letter in the alphabet after his name?(Im assuming Mccain doesnt win the nomination)

 

For Dems

 

1.) Wouldnt you agree electing leaders like Pelosi/Dean are making the party unelectable? Arent they out of touch with the everyday American?

 

2.) Wouldnt you agree that associating with conspiracy theorists/Moveon.org really DO make us(some of us) Un-Americam?

 

3.) Shouldnt we stop playing politics with National Security?

 

 

4.) Would REAL Dems like JFK, LBJ, FDR, Truman be so for enemies rights/soft on war? I mean, did Dems backlash back then to Dresden/internment camps/Vietnam bombings, etc?

 

5.) Wouldnt you agree that being Patriotic is OUR THING? "Not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you"

 

 

 

Im really interested in hearing responses. I am a moderate Democrat, and some day would like to run for office, but I dont see myself as liberal/out of touch/ soft on war at all. In fact, im only very liberal on labor, education, and healthcare. Just interested in everyones imput.

 

I thought I was as neutral as possible.

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1.) Wouldnt you agree electing leaders like Pelosi/Dean are making the party unelectable? Arent they out of touch with the everyday American?

-I think that Harry Reid is out of touch, mostly because he's one of the Democrats who takes the most from special interest. I do not feel the same way with Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean.

 

2.) Wouldnt you agree that associating with conspiracy theorists/Moveon.org really DO make us(some of us) Un-American?

-No, because they have every right to express their opinions freely. This is America.

 

3.) Shouldn't we stop playing politics with National Security?

-Not until the Bush administration stops it. Bush himself did it last night during his 9/11 speech, trying to say that if we pull out of Iraq, it will destroy America.

 

4.) Would REAL Dems like JFK, LBJ, FDR, Truman be so for enemies rights/soft on war?

-The idea that Democrats are in favor of 'enemies' rights' is a bunch of BS created by right-wingers. No Democrat has said this.

 

5.) Wouldnt you agree that being Patriotic is OUR THING? "Not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you"

-Yes. Democrats favor individual rights over handing over our rights in favor of so-called 'security'. I would hope that if Democrats retake the House or Congress, that they try and repeal the Patriot Act. It's a horrible name for a horrible document. The Patriot Act HAS NOT made our country more secure. Following through on the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission would make our country a lot more secure than it currently is. Security analysts will all tell you that our rail and cargo is extremely vulnerable to infiltration by terrorists for potential WMD smuggling. Our nuclear facilities are also poorly guarded against a potential attack.

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Im going to give you long responses to your good questions.

 

For Dems

 

1.) Wouldnt you agree electing leaders like Pelosi/Dean are making the party unelectable? Arent they out of touch with the everyday American?

 

Well my view on this is that these aren't nationally elected individuals. They are elected from their own regions and districts which happen to be more reflective of their political positions. Pelosi and Dean are probably not the best figures for the party, but I wonder if it would even matter. John Murtha has been elected over and over by a very conservative district in Pennsylvania and is considered one of the best experts of foreign policy. He has a stellar war record. That hasn't stopped the Republicans from labelling him as an out of touch liberal.

 

I don't know about Pelosi..didnt follow politics too much when she got her job. But one thing that made Dean so appealing was his methods and not his political views. He doesn't like this "give up on red southern states" crap that the party has been doing the last decade or so. He wants to pour money into southern and western states to build a strong democratic party in those states that can try and reframe and realign the issues in those states.

 

We keep asking why so many people in the south vote against their interests. Why do coal miners in West Virginia vote for Republicans despite safety regulations that would come from democrats? Dean would say, and I agree, that we let the Republican party change the message during the civil rights movement and on. We let them change it from the love of the new deal to social conservative principles. Now he wants to change it back. This is called the 50 state strategy and it doesn't want to pump out generic messages that appeal only to a specific amount of the country. That's why he is spending a lot of money on creating an actual infrastructure instead of short term election year to election year foolishness. That kind of stuff lead to the democratic party being labelled as not having a message.

 

Yeah their political views are not moderate. But political views doesn't always mean a lot in leadership roles. Tom Delay is en enormous lighting rod right? Say what you want about him and his political views, but the guy got the frikkin job done one way or another.

 

The fact is, Pelosi and Dean probably don't want to be president(Dean 2004 took advantage of a strong anti-war base and his unkown factor but he probably wouldnt run again). They want to be architects. The Republicans want to make it about Pelosi and Dean. Frankly, let them. How long did the dems try and make the other side about Delay and other lighting rods? Never worked and it isnt working now. The American people don't usually care about some other districts elected officials.

 

2.) Wouldnt you agree that associating with conspiracy theorists/Moveon.org really DO make us(some of us) Un-Americam?

 

I'm not sure anyone associates with the conspiracy theorists. I don't think moveon is as extremist as you might think.

 

But no. The only thing that makes someone un-American is if they advocate for the illegitimate downfall of our government or the destruction of our nation. Being critical of our elected officials is never ever unAmerican. Republicans were not un-American when they tried to impeach Clinton. People who operate within the confines of our political system are as American as it gets.

 

What does it mean to be American? Some people point to baseball and apple pie etc. But it goes way beyond that. What made America great back in the late 1700s was that for the first time in thousands of years, individuals were autonomous and not inferior to the state/sovereign. America is a nation of individuals that employs the government, not the other way around.

 

Ask any recent immigrant and they will tell you why they love this country. They arent forced into being something they don't choose to be. There is no national culture that forces them to do something. They feel like opening a hot dog stand? They can do it. They feel like complaining? They can do it. But when we start suggesting that America is defined in a certain manner and those that run against it or fight against it are unAmerican, we have become unAmerican.

 

3.) Shouldnt we stop playing politics with National Security?

 

Going by the fact that dems are always behind the eight ball when it comes to national security, I dont think they want to play politics with it. Bush had no qualms using 9-11 in the 2002 election. Saxby Chambliss had no qualms morphing his opponents face into Bin Laden in that same election. The other side broke the truce a long time ago and has been running with it since. Democrats are just now catching up by showing that Bush screwed up big on Iraq. Not fighting back on national security is like not fighting back against a bully who is punching you and telling you fighting is wrong.

 

That said, what do you mean by playing politics with national security?

 

4.) Would REAL Dems like JFK, LBJ, FDR, Truman be so for enemies rights/soft on war? I mean, did Dems backlash back then to Dresden/internment camps/Vietnam bombings, etc?

 

We've changed as a country since then. It isn't fair to make the same judgement calls. Imagine if today, we put Americans who were of Arab decent in camps without any evidence at all. Then their white neighbors took their houses and property and sold them for profit. Would this fly? Our values are different. Back then, civil liberties did not really exist. Back then, black people had to ride on the back of the bus.

 

But one could say they were enemy rights to a degree. What did we do to Nazis? Take them to secret camps and torture them? No. We held the Nuremburg war trials. Do that today and conservatives would riot.

As far as being soft on war, what do you mean? Arbitrary invasion does not mean being effective in war.

 

5.) Wouldnt you agree that being Patriotic is OUR THING? "Not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you"

 

Rhetorical question? :)

 

Patriotism was at an all time high when the middle class prospered. Dems want prosperity more than anything. We arent against patriotism. We are against false political patriotism.

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Hey guys, ive been a long time member here and limited poster. Im an INR/Poli Sci major, so I always like to hear peoples opinions on various issues. Just wanted to post some questions and see your answers. Especially interested in hearing Accord, Fox, F_M, etcs thoughts. I have no interest in hearing Capes cause, well, ive never seen a more biased person towards politics. I mean, seriously, Harris over Nelson? lol.

 

For conservatives/Republicans

 

1.) If Clinton went into Iraq, how would you feel about this war?

 

You mean if the attacks were on Sept. 11, 1998 or something? It would depend on if he fought it half-assed like Somolia.

 

 

2.) Wouldnt you agree that occupation of a foreign nation, spreading democray and capitalism is actually a liberal idea?(That is liberal international theory, btw) So if some of you are SO against Liberalism, why support the war?

 

What is called Liberalism in the US nowadays is not the traditional definition. Modern US liberalism is actually socialist/progressive.

 

3.) Arent you the LEAST bit upset that Bush admitted to lying bout the War in Iraq, saying 9/11 had nothing to do with it? Thus, isint at least an investigation important?

 

That is not what happened. At most one can determine that the intellegence community, the Administration, and Congress were mistaken.

 

 

4.) Isint it very unfair to call Democrats un-American? Considering there are over 50 veterans running for office/re-election this year as Dems. Arent men like Murtha,Clark, Kerry, etc who have fought for our nation really patriots?

 

Many Democrats are anti-American, or at least in a group that blames America for many troubles, more than America is involved in.

 

For Accord in specific(or any soldier/veteran/anyone)

 

Would you support in 2008 for example, my personal favorite and PAC leader Wesley Clark, a decorated veteran, moderate, and expierenced in military and international affairs over another non-experienced, christian right Repubnlican like Bush? Or do you simply not vote for Clark because he has the 4th letter in the alphabet after his name?(Im assuming Mccain doesnt win the nomination)

 

Not for Clark, he is a buffoon who was basically suckered by various Balkan factions for years. But there are Democrats I would support.

 

For Dems

 

1.) Wouldnt you agree electing leaders like Pelosi/Dean are making the party unelectable? Arent they out of touch with the everyday American?

 

2.) Wouldnt you agree that associating with conspiracy theorists/Moveon.org really DO make us(some of us) Un-Americam?

 

3.) Shouldnt we stop playing politics with National Security?

 

 

4.) Would REAL Dems like JFK, LBJ, FDR, Truman be so for enemies rights/soft on war? I mean, did Dems backlash back then to Dresden/internment camps/Vietnam bombings, etc?

 

5.) Wouldnt you agree that being Patriotic is OUR THING? "Not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you"

 

 

Im really interested in hearing responses. I am a moderate Democrat, and some day would like to run for office, but I dont see myself as liberal/out of touch/ soft on war at all. In fact, im only very liberal on labor, education, and healthcare. Just interested in everyones imput.

 

I thought I was as neutral as possible.

 

 

I'm not a Dem, but item #5 should be your thing if you are going to hold office, regardless of party.

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1.) If Clinton went into Iraq, how would you feel about this war?

Depends all on how it's handled. I'm fundamentally neutral towards nation building, and sometimes it has its benefits.

 

2.) Wouldnt you agree that occupation of a foreign nation, spreading democray and capitalism is actually a liberal idea?(That is liberal international theory, btw) So if some of you are SO against Liberalism, why support the war?

What you're doing here is mistaking American (or modern) liberalism with international (or classical) liberalism. Every person in America almost down to the last man is a classical liberal. I mean, with as much as we believe in our system, it'd be crazy to think otherwise. Because of this, we're also all very much balancing on our own private political scale - one that operates to the left of center when looked at in the microscope of history. Even our conservatives are liberals. So, in short, your premise is mistaken.

 

Besides, liberalism isn't the only worldview that advocates war at times. In fact, I guess idealism is the only one that really pushes it to the side as much as possible.

 

3.) Arent you the LEAST bit upset that Bush admitted to lying bout the War in Iraq, saying 9/11 had nothing to do with it? Thus, isint at least an investigation important?

Yup. Should be an investigation. I wouldn't have minded the war as much if we would have just frm the outset said "Look, we're gonna go f*** up these bitches because we don't like them and they're killing their own people. Cool?" Nation building can have both positive and negative results anyways.

 

4.) Isint it very unfair to call Democrats un-American? Considering there are over 50 veterans running for office/re-election this year as Dems. Arent men like Murtha,Clark, Kerry, etc who have fought for our nation really patriots?

Un-American is a stupid term.

 

I don't like these questions, too one-sided.

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Juanky, Bush said that Clintons occupation of the Balkans was "misplaced liberalism" Thus I ask that question.

I don't consider George W. Bush a virtuoso on political theory.

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