October 17, 200620 yr Yes the subject is cliche and probably has been discussed multiple time on this message board, but it never gets old. Alltime All-Star Team Who would you rather have? Mays or Clemente? Spahn or the Big Unit? Bench or Piazza? SI polled a 22-man panel of experts to fill its dream roster. The result is a work of art Posted: Tuesday October 3, 2006 12:22PM; Updated: Thursday October 5, 2006 10:19AM With its diligence and reverence for record keeping, baseball is often held up as an exact science. Ted Williams chose to play on the last day of the 1941 season because .39955 -- his batting average that morning -- was not actually .400. The discovery in 1977 of an overlooked RBI for Hack Wilson in his record 1930 season was akin to scientists finding a new element, and thus made sacred the number 191. Yet so visceral is the appeal of the game that it also moves poets as much as it does mathematicians. "Poets," Robert Frost once exclaimed, "are like baseball pitchers. Both have their moments. The intervals are the tough things." Baseball, in fact, is a good workout for both sides of your brain, which is why a bar stool has always been just as handy as a calculator when trying to figure out the game. Just ask us. We tried. SI set out to pick an alltime All-Star team -- 25 players (seven starting pitchers, two relievers, two catchers, seven infielders and seven outfielders), one manager and two coaches -- by polling 22 expert writers, editors and analysts, including Bill James, Peter Gammons and more than a dozen current and former SI staffers. What we wound up with was something much like Aaron Goodman's photo illustration on these pages: a fascinating blend of art and science. It's why the alltime leader in hits and the heir apparent to the alltime leader in home runs didn't make the cut. Pete Rose, for all his singles and manic drive, simply wasn't better than any of the outfielders or infielders on the dream team. (His gambling on baseball as Reds manager had no impact on this voter's opinion.) Barry Bonds, because of how his freakish late-career production has been linked to the use of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs, has numbers that are not to be believed. Such is the nature of baseball that the omission of some players from this roster is certain to provoke cries of despair, so let me throw out the first bawl: Warren Spahn over Randy Johnson? Please. The Unit blows away Spahnnie in most important pitching metrics as well as the rather less sophisticated playground test: If I were a captain choosing up sides, I'd pick Johnson (truth be told, Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez too) before I picked Spahn. Likewise, the catching selections, Yogi Berra and Johnny Bench, are a little too traditional for my taste. Where are Josh Gibson, whose Ruthian prowess should not be diminished for having played in the Negro leagues when the major leagues wouldn't have him, and Mike Piazza, whose unequaled offense at the position more than makes up for his weak arm? But, hey, that's just me. You're likely to find your own beef in what you see (and don't) in the greatest team picture of all time. A great baseball argument, and this one is mammoth, generates more disagreement than resolution. Such eternal debate is why message boards, watering holes and outfield bleachers exist. Now, about the batting order that manager John McGraw should use for this team.... -- Tom Verducci http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/maga...bb.allstar1009/ ALLTIME ALL-STAR TEAM John McGraw, MANAGER 2,763-1,948 IN 34 SEASONS Second-most wins by a manager, three World Series titles Joe McCarthy, COACH 2,125-1,333 IN 24 SEASONS Seven World Series titles Casey Stengel, COACH 1,905-1,842 IN 25 SEASONS Seven World Series titles Warren Spahn, PITCHER 363 WINS, 20-GAME WINNER 13 TIMES Most wins by a lefty, 1957 Cy Young Award Lou Gehrig, FIRST BASEMAN .340 AVG., 493 HOMERS, 1,995 RBIS TWO-TIME MVP (1927, '36) Dennis Eckersley, PITCHER 390 SAVES, 197 WINS Last pitcher to win MVP (1992) Lefty Grove, PITCHER 300 WINS, .680 WIN PCT. Nine ERA titles, seven strikeout titles Yogi Berra, CATCHER 358 HOMERS, 15 ALL-STAR GAMES Three-time MVP (1951, '54, '55) Jackie Robinson, SECOND BASE .311 AVG., .409 OBP Broke modern MLB color barrier, 1949 MVP Joe DiMaggio, OUTFIELD .325 AVG., 56-GAME HITTING STREAK Three-time MVP (1939, '41, '47) Mariano Rivera, PITCHER 413 SAVES, 0.81 POSTSEASON ERA Alltime postseason saves leader (34) Stan Musial, FIRST BASE .331 AVG., 475 HOMERS, 1,951 RBIS THREE-TIME MVP (1943, '46, '48) Roger Clemens, PITCHER 348 WINS, 4,604 STRIKEOUTS Seven Cy Youngs (1986, '87, '91, '97, '98, 2001, '04) Cy Young, PITCHER 511 WINS, 30-GAME WINNER FIVE TIMES Winningest pitcher in baseball history Ted Williams, OUTFIELD .344 AVG., .482 OBP, 521 HOMERS Two-time MVP (1946, '49) Ty Cobb, OUTFIELD .366 AVG., 4,189 HITS, 892 STEALS Second-most hits in baseball history Christy Mathewson, PITCHER 373 WINS, 2.13 ERA Won 30 games four times (1903, '04, 05, '08) Sandy Koufax, PITCHER .655 WIN PCT., 0.95 POSTSEASON ERA Three Cy Youngs (1963, '65, '66), 1963 MVP Rogers Hornsby, SECOND BASE .358 AVG., HIT .400 THREE TIMES Two-time Triple Crown winner (1922, '25) Babe Ruth, OUTFIELD .342 AVG., 714 HOMERS Led majors in homers 11 times Willie Mays, OUTFIELD 660 HOMERS, 12 GOLD GLOVES Two-time MVP (1954, '65) Walter Johnson, PITCHER 417 WINS, 3,509 STRIKEOUTS Won 20 games 12 times, 30 games twice Mickey Mantle, OUTFIELD 536 HOMERS, 1,509 RBIS THREE-TIME MVP (1956, '57, '62) Honus Wagner, SHORTSTOP 3,420 HITS, 723 STEALS One of original five Hall of Famers Hank Aaron, OUTFIELD 755 HOMERS, 3,771 HITS Alltime home run king, 1957 MVP Johnny Bench, CATCHER 389 HOMERS, 10 GOLD GLOVES Two-time MVP (1970, '72) Mike Schmidt, THIRD BASE 548 HOMERS, 10 GOLD GLOVES Three-time MVP (1980, '81, '86) Alex Rodriguez, SHORTSTOP 464 HOMERS, 1,347 RBIS TWO-TIME MVP (2003, '05) Only complaint from me is the absence of Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson. The rest of the team is solid.
October 17, 200620 yr There are quite a few pitchers that should be on there before Koufax. Pedro, Seaver, Gibson, Maddux, Marichal and Palmer are just a few.
October 17, 200620 yr I think AROD is a stretch at SS, but I guess they needed another SS... Who was more deserving than ARod??????
October 17, 200620 yr Who was more deserving than ARod?????? Uh, how about Ozzie Smith? He's arguably the greatest defensive player ever at ANY position in the history of baseball. It's not all about the O, you know... In a defensive position, the guy had 13 GG and 15 AS on his resume. Those 15 AS selections and 13 GG speak louder to me than a career .264 batting average. There's a reason he was a first ballot no-brainer and the ONLY person to get selected to the 2002 HOF Class.
October 17, 200620 yr Who was more deserving than ARod?????? Uh, how about Ozzie Smith? He's arguably the greatest defensive player ever at ANY position in the history of baseball. It's not all about the O, you know... In a defensive position, the guy had 13 GG and 15 AS on his resume. Those 15 AS selections and 13 GG speak louder to me than a career .264 batting average. There's a reason he was a first ballot no-brainer and the ONLY person to get selected to the 2002 HOF Class. Okay, so you think Ozzie is better than ARod. Do you also think Vizquel and Aparicio are better than ARod? These guys are also defensive wizards who won a bunch of GGs.
October 17, 200620 yr The complete lack of Barry Bonds is entirely laughable. Even if you exclude the "steroid years" (c. 2000-present) he's still arguably the greatest all-around player of all time. Typical media hating on the guy because he's a dick to the media and the only player to ever do steroids.
October 18, 200620 yr Okay, so you think Ozzie is better than ARod. Yes, I do. I definately think he's more deserving. Do you also think Vizquel and Aparicio are better than ARod? These guys are also defensive wizards who won a bunch of GGs. Vizquel? No. He had a good string, but he wasn't OZZIE good. You can actually make a case for Aparicio, but I never saw him play.
October 18, 200620 yr Okay, so you think Ozzie is better than ARod. Yes, I do. I definately think he's more deserving. Do you also think Vizquel and Aparicio are better than ARod? These guys are also defensive wizards who won a bunch of GGs. Vizquel? No. He had a good string, but he wasn't OZZIE good. You can actually make a case for Aparicio, but I never saw him play. It's probably because Ozzie was more clutchier than A-rod.
October 19, 200620 yr Ernie Banks is a lot better an option than Ozzie Smith. First power hitting SS, a great fielder, a baseball icon. Ernie is more deserving than both players
October 19, 200619 yr Ernie Banks is a lot better an option than Ozzie Smith. Hey I'm not going to lie, Ernie Banks would be a good choice. With that said, go ask any random 40-60 year old who the best SS in baseball history was and 9/10 will say Ozzie Smith. I'm telling you, you guys are too focused on the O in a position that is defined by D. Choosing AROD over Ozzie is like choosing Hampton over Koufax because Hampton has a better career BA.
October 19, 200619 yr Ernie Banks is a lot better an option than Ozzie Smith. Hey I'm not going to lie, Ernie Banks would be a good choice. With that said, go ask any random 40-60 year old who the best SS in baseball history was and 9/10 will say Ozzie Smith. I'm telling you, you guys are too focused on the O in a position that is defined by D. Choosing AROD over Ozzie is like choosing Hampton over Koufax because Hampton has a better career BA. ARod is a much better hitter than what Banks was and ARod at SS was pretty good with the glove. ARod is widely regarded as baseball's best all-time SS so I doubt 90% of the 40-60 year old gang will say Ozzie was better.
October 19, 200619 yr I doubt 90% of the 40-60 year old gang will say Ozzie was better. After posting that, I started thinking I might want to back that number down to 60-70%. I've been thinking about it for a little bit and decided I needed to test my theory the next time I ran into a couple of sports nuts in the right demographic. So, I just got back from a business meeting with a couple of big baseball fans [evenly split between Mets and Orioles]. I had this post on my mind and I asked this very same question. To a man, they each said Ozzie Smith without a moment's hesitation. I brought up AROD and one of them said AROD was the best baseball player right now [inclusive of Pujols], despite a "down year" that would be stellar by anyone else's standards. HOWEVER, they were pretty passionate in their defense of Ozzie. They thought I was jaded towards AROD because of my age and team preference. I didn't tell them about my preference until I mentioned the SI Article. Just thought it was interesting to see their choice [especially with the O's fans]. So far, I'm at 11 for 11. I'm sure I'll run into someone soon, so I'll keep you posted if I hear anything besides Ozzie.
October 19, 200619 yr I find it surprising that one guy thought that ARod is the best player right now but thinks that Ozzie was better than ARod. I guess this guy thinks Ozzie would be the best player today? If you work with that guy I would at least triple check every thing he does or says related to work.
October 19, 200619 yr I agree that A-Rod is definitely a much better choice for SS than Ozzie Smith. This isn't because I'm overvaluing offense and downplaying defense, it's because the truth of the matter is that Ozzie Smith's phenomenal glove work can in no way compensate for A-Rod's offensive abilities. Look at the offensive stats: Ozzie Smith: .262 (BA) / .337 (OBP) / .328 (SLG) / .765 (OPS) A-Rod: .305 (BA) / .386 (OBP) / .573 (SLG) / .959 (OPS) Offensively, this comparison is a joke. A-Rod destroys Ozzie Smith in career offensive numbers. Now, let's think about defense. How much can Ozzie Smith's defense really benefit a ball club? He'll rob about 1 more hit per week from opposing hitters compared to a SS like A-Rod. Consider this the "How many more times a week would Ozzie Smith be on Web Gems over A-Rod" stat. Now, in that same week (estimated at 5 games), a batter comes up to the plate roughly 4 or 5 times each game. If Ozzie and A-Rod each got roughly 23 plate appearances each week, their averages tell us that A-Rod is good for about 1 more hit each week. While this might seem like a push (Ozzie's 1 robbed hit = A-Rod 1 extra offensive hit), there's more to it than that because of their vastly different slugging percentages. An A-Rod hit is also more valuable than a hit from Ozzie because, on average, A-Rod will hit more doubles and home runs. So not only is A-Rod going to get about one more hit each week, each of those hits will be more valuable than those from Ozzie, on average. In fact, while A-Rod's offense (calculated with batting average) only gives you about 1 extra hit per week, he's worth about 5-6 extra bases each week because of his sick slugging percentage. A-Rod is clearly the choice over Ozzie.
October 19, 200619 yr It's just others opinions but I think there are a lot of better second basemen than Jackie Robinson. If you include his Negro League stats he's far more impressive, but so were Frankie Frisch, Joe Morgan and others.. I also have a difference of opinion on some other players but love the exclusion of Barry Bonds.
October 19, 200619 yr A-Rod is clearly the choice over Ozzie. I did some number crunching on my other computer. I think I will be able to prove my point better tomorrow when I have access to my data. The bottom line is that I did a number comparison by era - including only the numbers from the years they ACTUALLY played in and comparing them to league averages. I think you will be surprised. The deficit in Ozzie's O is probably slightly less than the deficit in Arod's D. Again, it's pretty subjective, but helps to add some element of objectivity. I would also like to point out that I'm not saying that Arod stinks or anything like that. I know he'll be going to Cooperstown and deserves it. I simply think Ozzie should have been chosen. I would also like to point out, for the record, that SI basically called this year's Yankee lineup possibly the greatest ever in post season history... :mischief It's just others opinions but I think there are a lot of better second basemen than Jackie Robinson...Joe Morgan I think I'm with you on Joe Morgan.
October 21, 200619 yr I agree that Ernie Banks should be on there. I think Maris should be considered, but am biased towards him, he's one of my favorites.
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