/thread

 

 

See this is why we need to sign Felix Pie, just for the jokes we can make in the middle of July. I don't really care how good he is, the possibilities are endless.

Pie's career minor league line is .299/.353/.470 and he never hit more than 15 HRs at any level. That's minus one tool...

 

He Ks way more than he walks... 206-532, there goes another tool....

 

So, now we're left with... he can probably hit for average... play defense and be fast...

 

Jeremy Hermida's minor league line .284/.397/.436

He K's more than he walks

So now we're left with...not that fast and can't really play defense

 

Should we give up on him

Hermida walks like crazy, which is why his OBP in the minors was so much higher than his BA. That tool is very far there.

 

He's also got fine speed, has good glove control, and a very good arm.

Walks like crazy? He had 48 BB last season. Compare him to the much maligned "free-swinging" Dan Uggla who had 77 BB last season, and it's hardly what I'd call "walking like crazy".

We were talking about the minors. I guess I should have said "walked a ton".

Pie's value is that he plays great CF defense. The problem with prospects is, when it comes to CFers (Pie, Maybin, Adam Jones, Carlos Gomez, ect), there's all this hype about their offense and then people think "oh, they're going to be elite, they could even play a corner spot"

 

The issue is that the hype about their offense is that it comes with good defense, which is what you need in CF. It's not that they're the next Andruw Jones circa 2005 .922 OPS, but more-so somebody like Mike Cameron circa early 2000's, top of the league defense with a ~.800 OPS. Maybe they "figure it out" and become the next Andruw but you can't put eggs in that kind of basket.

 

When Pie hits his prime he'll be a very nice CFer. Very nice CFers are hard to come by. We also already have a CFer that has the best chance of becoming the next Andruw with the bat and plays superior defense to Pie. Putting Pie in a corner spot completely deflates his value and we already have a better prospect. So, in other words, no on our part.

Pie's value is that he plays great CF defense. The problem with prospects is, when it comes to CFers (Pie, Maybin, Adam Jones, Carlos Gomez, ect), there's all this hype about their offense and then people think "oh, they're going to be elite, they could even play a corner spot"

 

The issue is that the hype about their offense is that it comes with good defense, which is what you need in CF. It's not that they're the next Andruw Jones circa 2005 .922 OPS, but more-so somebody like Mike Cameron circa early 2000's, top of the league defense with a ~.800 OPS. Maybe they "figure it out" and become the next Andruw but you can't put eggs in that kind of basket.

 

When Pie hits his prime he'll be a very nice CFer. Very nice CFers are hard to come by. We also already have a CFer that has the best chance of becoming the next Andruw with the bat and plays superior defense to Pie. Putting Pie in a corner spot completely deflates his value and we already have a better prospect. So, in other words, no on our part.

 

The real problem is that the hype and consequential value given to these guys is undeserved for players who are only going to be effective defenders with minor bits of offense mixed in. I still can't believe that Carlos Gomez was pretty much the centerpiece for the Johan Santana trade. A HOF caliber starter for a guy who plays good defense? It doesn't make sense. In our early days, we had Chuck Carr in CF, who was one of the most spectacular defensive players of the decade. I didn't see any teams lining up to trade their ace for him.

 

Carlos Gomez had a sub .700 OPS last year. I realize that he was pretty much a rookie last year but his minor league numbers were never more than merely adequate either. I just don't think teams think things through when they trade for these so-called tools guys. Could you imagine a team trading Santana for Josh Willingham? Neither could I, but Gomez would be lucky to be three quarters as effective offensively as a good year from Hammer. He just didn't have the flashy tools that made GM's think he was going to be better than he was.

 

If Maybin's ceiling also happens to be Mike Cameron than I am going to be a little upset that we traded Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis for him.

Pie is just another one of those "five-tool" prospects that everybody gets dazzled over due to their inherent athleticism, but as somebody else already point out here, Pie actually lacks essential tools such as consistent contact skills, genuine power, and plate discipline. Pie may look like he could be a great player but in reality I doubt he will ever outperform less dimensional but more steady players like a Josh Willingham, who lack "tools" but can handle a stick at the plate.

 

The again, I've seen a lot of Pie in Chicago and while he has struggled, Chicago is a terrible place to bring along prospects. The fans there want production now, which does not always happen with a young player. It's a unique set of circumstances owing to the popularity of the franchise and its legacy of losing. Pie could become a better played than his current numbers indicate if he got a change of scenery (especially before its too late and he becomes Corey Patterson), but Chicago is actually more unwilling to deal him for cheap right now than you might think, as they have already turned down numerous offers for him despite the fact that it would make sense for them to move on.

I do not know much about Pie, but it took Bj Upton a little while to finally come through.

 

Upton was playing in TB, pretty much the exact opposite environment from Chicago. Numbers wise, the two are comparable, but Pie's left handed swing is much different than Upton's and its something that he is having to adjust a lot in order to be a capable major leaguer. Pie has a lot of potential though, he's just going to have to work hard to turn it into production at the major league level.

Pie's value is that he plays great CF defense. The problem with prospects is, when it comes to CFers (Pie, Maybin, Adam Jones, Carlos Gomez, ect), there's all this hype about their offense and then people think "oh, they're going to be elite, they could even play a corner spot"

 

The issue is that the hype about their offense is that it comes with good defense, which is what you need in CF. It's not that they're the next Andruw Jones circa 2005 .922 OPS, but more-so somebody like Mike Cameron circa early 2000's, top of the league defense with a ~.800 OPS. Maybe they "figure it out" and become the next Andruw but you can't put eggs in that kind of basket.

 

When Pie hits his prime he'll be a very nice CFer. Very nice CFers are hard to come by. We also already have a CFer that has the best chance of becoming the next Andruw with the bat and plays superior defense to Pie. Putting Pie in a corner spot completely deflates his value and we already have a better prospect. So, in other words, no on our part.

 

The real problem is that the hype and consequential value given to these guys is undeserved for players who are only going to be effective defenders with minor bits of offense mixed in. I still can't believe that Carlos Gomez was pretty much the centerpiece for the Johan Santana trade. A HOF caliber starter for a guy who plays good defense? It doesn't make sense. In our early days, we had Chuck Carr in CF, who was one of the most spectacular defensive players of the decade. I didn't see any teams lining up to trade their ace for him.

 

Carlos Gomez had a sub .700 OPS last year. I realize that he was pretty much a rookie last year but his minor league numbers were never more than merely adequate either. I just don't think teams think things through when they trade for these so-called tools guys. Could you imagine a team trading Santana for Josh Willingham? Neither could I, but Gomez would be lucky to be three quarters as effective offensively as a good year from Hammer. He just didn't have the flashy tools that made GM's think he was going to be better than he was.

 

If Maybin's ceiling also happens to be Mike Cameron than I am going to be a little upset that we traded Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis for him.

 

Maybin's ceiling isn't Cameron, his ceiling is a .900+ OPS CFer. It's more of the odds. Odds are, these guys become the Cameron's of the worlds. Some of them will knock it up and be elite, other's won't figure it out and be a 4th OFer. Maybin has the highest chance of being the next elite.

 

As far as Gomez goes...just about everyone will agree it was a bad deal on the Twin's part. But for Gomez, he was likely the best defensive CFer last year. He saved about 16 runs last year, which equals about a mid.700 OPS playing average defense....aka about an average CFer. He was only 22 last year. His offensive abilities certainly don't compare to somebody like Maybin's but as he gets older, he matures, his offense will improve and he'll become an above average CFer. Above average CFers aren't exactly easy to find. We speant the better part of two years just trying to find an average one.

Pie's value is that he plays great CF defense. The problem with prospects is, when it comes to CFers (Pie, Maybin, Adam Jones, Carlos Gomez, ect), there's all this hype about their offense and then people think "oh, they're going to be elite, they could even play a corner spot"

 

The issue is that the hype about their offense is that it comes with good defense, which is what you need in CF. It's not that they're the next Andruw Jones circa 2005 .922 OPS, but more-so somebody like Mike Cameron circa early 2000's, top of the league defense with a ~.800 OPS. Maybe they "figure it out" and become the next Andruw but you can't put eggs in that kind of basket.

 

When Pie hits his prime he'll be a very nice CFer. Very nice CFers are hard to come by. We also already have a CFer that has the best chance of becoming the next Andruw with the bat and plays superior defense to Pie. Putting Pie in a corner spot completely deflates his value and we already have a better prospect. So, in other words, no on our part.

 

The real problem is that the hype and consequential value given to these guys is undeserved for players who are only going to be effective defenders with minor bits of offense mixed in. I still can't believe that Carlos Gomez was pretty much the centerpiece for the Johan Santana trade. A HOF caliber starter for a guy who plays good defense? It doesn't make sense. In our early days, we had Chuck Carr in CF, who was one of the most spectacular defensive players of the decade. I didn't see any teams lining up to trade their ace for him.

 

Carlos Gomez had a sub .700 OPS last year. I realize that he was pretty much a rookie last year but his minor league numbers were never more than merely adequate either. I just don't think teams think things through when they trade for these so-called tools guys. Could you imagine a team trading Santana for Josh Willingham? Neither could I, but Gomez would be lucky to be three quarters as effective offensively as a good year from Hammer. He just didn't have the flashy tools that made GM's think he was going to be better than he was.

 

If Maybin's ceiling also happens to be Mike Cameron than I am going to be a little upset that we traded Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis for him.

 

Maybin's ceiling isn't Cameron, his ceiling is a .900+ OPS CFer. It's more of the odds. Odds are, these guys become the Cameron's of the worlds. Some of them will knock it up and be elite, other's won't figure it out and be a 4th OFer. Maybin has the highest chance of being the next elite.

 

As far as Gomez goes...just about everyone will agree it was a bad deal on the Twin's part. But for Gomez, he was likely the best defensive CFer last year. He saved about 16 runs last year, which equals about a mid.700 OPS playing average defense....aka about an average CFer. He was only 22 last year. His offensive abilities certainly don't compare to somebody like Maybin's but as he gets older, he matures, his offense will improve and he'll become an above average CFer. Above average CFers aren't exactly easy to find. We speant the better part of two years just trying to find an average one.

 

The problem with Gomez is that everyone looks at his age and just assumes he will get better. I don't know if thats the case. His production hasn't been outstanding at any level and he doesn't seem to have a projectable body type.

 

Truthfully, while it's hard to say we found him more than stumbled upon him, I think that Cody Ross is much better than many of these other CF tools guys. He doesn't play flashy defense but he is very very effective at playing the ball off the bat and is hardly ever in a position where he has to make a flashy play like Amezaga. And offensively, he brings outstanding power to the table even if he is inconsistent. Which is much better than guys who are still inconsistent with no power.

 

Cody's problem is that he doesn't look like the prototypical center fielder and he has the bat of a corner outfielder, which isn't bad but leads him to be grouped there. When there are so many guys that overall provide only marginal production overall (not just for the position), its amazing that a guy with Cody's bat who can play center field well is so overlooked.

Preaching to the choir about Cody (when I said two years I was talking about 06-07, as cody wasn't good in 06 and was injured for basically all of 07) and agree regarding how players are "viewed" in regards to tools and such and just how they look.