if people change their beliefs based on some movie they are idiots. their just as gullible (sp?) as you accuse the republicans on this board to be. if it makes you think than ok, but to just switch views because of it is laughable.

 

im not a republican, nor am i a democrat. frankly politicians disgust me whether theyre repped by an ass or a big ass old elephant.

thats why i said this movie wont change opinions.

 

 

it will make them think, and if they do further research, then they can change their minds..

 

 

but to say a movie/documentary cant change ur life, its ludacris...there are movies, books and many other forms of media that can change even the most bull headed persons mind.

 

 

im just saying its rare that one movie can do it. actually i was talking about cyberlina. she said that she met some republicans who quickly left the party after the movie.

 

to say that im going to go watch a movie, or read a book and i will change views is crazy. yeah it can make you think but if you change so quickly than you really never believed in what you claimed to believe in the 1st place. views change after time (as in years, not a couple of hours). most people dont really believe in what they think they believe in.

 

im going to quote dogma(awsome movie) dont have beliefs, have ideas...or something

 

 

its true, people fight and die for whatr they believe in....so...don't? i dont know...

 

 

all i do know is that the government thinks were all dumb(the masses) and is going to try to create a new world order. sounds crazy, but thats what theire trying to do. with iraq, afganastan, saudi arabia and all the other 'stan' countries under US "control" , which i mean heavily influenced by the US to the point where they do what we say, we will become the only world super power. and we'll eventually try to make a whole world government, which would be alot easier to run thing.

 

 

if u dont believe that, do your research, GB Sr. wanted to do it, but couldnt he wasnt re-elected and Clinton was a f*** up for the most part, he didnt want to play the game like the rest, enter dubya, who will try to finish his fathers work.

who know if he will? it may not be dubya, it could be kerry. because whatever happens, it'll be the same people telling kerry what to do. it'll just sound different.

 

most of you wont believe this, or even consider it a possibilty, but you are the ones that make this all possible. thank you.

if people change their beliefs based on some movie they are idiots. their just as gullible (sp?) as you accuse the republicans on this board to be. if it makes you think than ok, but to just switch views because of it is laughable.

 

im not a republican, nor am i a democrat. frankly politicians disgust me whether theyre repped by an ass or a big ass old elephant.

thats why i said this movie wont change opinions.

 

 

it will make them think, and if they do further research, then they can change their minds..

 

 

but to say a movie/documentary cant change ur life, its ludacris...there are movies, books and many other forms of media that can change even the most bull headed persons mind.

 

 

im just saying its rare that one movie can do it. actually i was talking about cyberlina. she said that she met some republicans who quickly left the party after the movie.

 

to say that im going to go watch a movie, or read a book and i will change views is crazy. yeah it can make you think but if you change so quickly than you really never believed in what you claimed to believe in the 1st place. views change after time (as in years, not a couple of hours). most people dont really believe in what they think they believe in.

 

im going to quote dogma(awsome movie) dont have beliefs, have ideas...or something

 

 

its true, people fight and die for whatr they believe in....so...don't? i dont know...

 

 

all i do know is that the government thinks were all dumb(the masses) and is going to try to create a new world order. sounds crazy, but thats what theire trying to do. with iraq, afganastan, saudi arabia and all the other 'stan' countries under US "control" , which i mean heavily influenced by the US to the point where they do what we say, we will become the only world super power. and we'll eventually try to make a whole world government, which would be alot easier to run thing.

 

 

if u dont believe that, do your research, GB Sr. wanted to do it, but couldnt he wasnt re-elected and Clinton was a f*** up for the most part, he didnt want to play the game like the rest, enter dubya, who will try to finish his fathers work.

who know if he will? it may not be dubya, it could be kerry. because whatever happens, it'll be the same people telling kerry what to do. it'll just sound different.

 

most of you wont believe this, or even consider it a possibilty, but you are the ones that make this all possible. thank you. we are the world's only superpower.

 

i do know that the government has done s*** in its history that they'd rather deny. all governments have. i dont know what this government is planning behind the scenes and im not pretending to know. if you expect for someone to be shocked at the idea that they want the new governments in afghanistan and iraq and eventually N.Korea and Iran to be pro-american im sorry but you'll be dissapointed.

 

 

beliefs, ideas... same s*** basically.

I really dont give a s***. I know deep down in my heart that conservatives have been using distortion campaigns for the longest time and are way better at it than liberals. Fish fillet, you should thank the common stupid man because theyve helped popularize your political beliefs, whether right or wrong..much more than liberals. The term liberal has been demonized in this country to the average American. Theyve made it bad to be a liberal rather than just something they disagree with. They done it by taking advantage of the stupidity of the common man. Nobody is going to feel bad because now the conservatives want to cry foul. At least Michael Moore is fighting fire with fire.

Have you read what fish fillet has written about the American public?

I'm really scared that a few people are taking this movie as gospel. It's scary, and I want to see why, allthough I think I already know the reason:

 

Once again further proof that Americans are stupid. They love/hate this movie because it is so easy to compartmentalize. Either it is everything they beleive, or everything they don't, but either way it's easy for them mentally, which is all they ever ask for.

 

 

Youre average person thinks liberals support criminals, are against hard working americans, are unpatriotic and unamerican, hate american business, and support communism. Its a naive perspective. This has nothing to do with elitism. Both sides are elitists.

Let me clarify..this is liberals..not necessarily democrats. The left has really been villified. Democrats have to be more moderate than Republicans in this country.

I'm really scared that a few people are taking this movie as gospel. It's scary, and I want to see why, allthough I think I already know the reason:

 

Once again further proof that Americans are stupid. They love/hate this movie because it is so easy to compartmentalize. Either it is everything they beleive, or everything they don't, but either way it's easy for them mentally, which is all they ever ask for.

 

 

Youre average person thinks liberals support criminals, are against hard working americans, are unpatriotic and unamerican, hate american business, and support communism. Its a naive perspective. This has nothing to do with elitism. Both sides are elitists. Strawman. I expect better from you. Please don't impose upon us the burden of speaking for "the average American".

See the movie. That is all I have to say. There is absolutely no need to yell.

I'm going to see the movie on Thursday with one of my very liberal friends and her very liberal grandmother. I seriously doubt that it will change my mind about anything, but I'm going into it open-minded and see what happens when I come out.

I'm really scared that a few people are taking this movie as gospel. It's scary, and I want to see why, allthough I think I already know the reason:

 

Once again further proof that Americans are stupid. They love/hate this movie because it is so easy to compartmentalize. Either it is everything they beleive, or everything they don't, but either way it's easy for them mentally, which is all they ever ask for.

 

 

Youre average person thinks liberals support criminals, are against hard working americans, are unpatriotic and unamerican, hate american business, and support communism. Its a naive perspective. This has nothing to do with elitism. Both sides are elitists. Strawman. I expect better from you. Please don't impose upon us the burden of speaking for "the average American". Ok, I saw "it" tonight.

 

First off, I think that it's fruitless for me to air all of the problems I have with the film here, so I'll spare you my breakdown of all that I think is wrong with the issues in the film. But I will give Mr. Moore credit, he is very good at what he does, even if I think what he does is cheap and and panders to an incredibly gullible, ignorant and intellectually lazy American public.

 

Which brings me back around to the topic at hand.....

 

The most disconcerting thing I drew from seeing the film had nothing to do with the ideas expressed in it per se. The disturbing thing that alarmed me is that the film is/will be highly influential, and for all the wrong reasons.

 

Moore makes it easy. Moore creates neat little packages of propaganda, and gift wraps them with the the finest in emotional suffering, lower class contempt and intellectual simplicity, all while ensuring that the suffering of every demographic is touched upon (except for that pesky "rich" white man, who once again is the cause of all that ills you.)

 

In the end, Moore gives the average American an "out." The average American need not research an issue, and they need not have to worry about sorting thorugh complex issues like geopolitics or socio-economic exploitation. Moore will package it all up and spoon feed it to you in small, mentally unchallenging tidbits that make you feel like you've been educated, when if fact you haven't even scratched the surface.

 

I know this sounds terribly elitist on my part, but please believe me when I tell you that I don't consider myself an intellectual superior. I'm probably just a little above average only due to circumstance, having attended an elite private prep school and then receiving an undergraduate degree from a not-so elite 4 year university. But this is what scares me the most. If I'm not an intellectual and I see thorugh this, what does that say abut the massive throngs of the American public, who fully subscibe to the panderings of Limbaugh, Franken, O'Reilly (And most importantly) Moore wholeheartedly without caveat or exception?

 

It scares me when the citizenry lends more rational creedence to the media outakes of it's leaders than to what it is that they do/have done.

 

And more importantly, it scares the living hell out of me when something so intellectualy simplistic can pass by the intellectual sentry of the american public with all the credentials of legitimacy when it does not remotely approach any semblance of legitimacy.

I'm really scared that a few people are taking this movie as gospel. It's scary, and I want to see why, allthough I think I already know the reason:

 

Once again further proof that Americans are stupid. They love/hate this movie because it is so easy to compartmentalize. Either it is everything they beleive, or everything they don't, but either way it's easy for them mentally, which is all they ever ask for.

 

 

Youre average person thinks liberals support criminals, are against hard working americans, are unpatriotic and unamerican, hate american business, and support communism. Its a naive perspective. This has nothing to do with elitism. Both sides are elitists. Strawman. I expect better from you. Please don't impose upon us the burden of speaking for "the average American". Ok, I saw "it" tonight.

 

First off, I think that it's fruitless for me to air all of the problems I have with the film here, so I'll spare you my breakdown of all that I think is wrong with the issues in the film. But I will give Mr. Moore credit, he is very good at what he does, even if I think what he does is cheap and and panders to an incredibly gullible, ignorant and intellectually lazy American public.

 

Which brings me back around to the topic at hand.....

 

The most disconcerting thing I drew from seeing the film had nothing to do with the ideas expressed in it per se. The disturbing thing that alarmed me is that the film is/will be highly influential, and for all the wrong reasons.

 

Moore makes it easy. Moore creates neat little packages of propaganda, and gift wraps them with the the finest in emotional suffering, lower class contempt and intellectual simplicity, all while ensuring that the suffering of every demographic is touched upon (except for that pesky "rich" white man, who once again is the cause of all that ills you.)

 

In the end, Moore gives the average American an "out." The average American need not research an issue, and they need not have to worry about sorting thorugh complex issues like geopolitics or socio-economic exploitation. Moore will package it all up and spoon feed it to you in small, mentally unchallenging tidbits that make you feel like you've been educated, when if fact you haven't even scratched the surface.

 

I know this sounds terribly elitist on my part, but please believe me when I tell you that I don't consider myself an intellectual superior. I'm probably just a little above average only due to circumstance, having attended an elite private prep school and then receiving an undergraduate degree from a not-so elite 4 year university. But this is what scares me the most. If I'm not an intellectual and I see thorugh this, what does that say abut the massive throngs of the American public, who fully subscibe to the panderings of Limbaugh, Franken, O'Reilly (And most importantly) wholeheartedly without caveat or exception?

 

It scares the hell out of me. i feel like just telling you to stop breathing...

About Alex Jones:

 

http://www.infowars.com/headline_photos/Ap...ALAMO_FLYER.jpg

 

BTW I know its good to argue, and share ideas and such. The bottom line is, that everyone nowadays divides everything between left and right, democrat and republican, that it is sick and pathetic. If one side believes this, one must quickly discard it if one belongs to the other. The majority of people have accepted this type of narrow thinking, and come every 4 years, head out to vote between "the lesser of two evils", satisfied with whatever knowledge CNN and FOX gave them to digest. Its the way its always been, and probably always will be. There are several factors that can be attributed to this, but in the end it wont matter because as a whole, people wont ever "think outside the box" (presented to you by taco bell).

About Alex Jones:

 

http://www.infowars.com/headline_photos/Ap...ALAMO_FLYER.jpg

 

BTW I know its good to argue, and share ideas and such. The bottom line is, that everyone nowadays divides everything between left and right, democrat and republican, that it is sick and pathetic. If one side believes this, one must quickly discard it if one belongs to the other. The majority of people have accepted this type of narrow thinking, and come every 4 years, head out to vote between "the lesser of two evils", satisfied with whatever knowledge CNN and FOX gave them to digest. Its the way its always been, and probably always will be. There are several factors that can be attributed to this, but in the end it wont matter because as a whole, people wont ever "think outside the box" (presented to you by taco bell).

exactly what i think...ive read and seen and listend to alot of alex jones, and micheal moore seems to either think just like him, or takes credit for his work..maybe theyre friends?

i feel like just telling you to stop breathing...

Unneccesasry. But thanks for sharing what I can only imagine is the unimaginable burden of your cognitive resources.

i feel like just telling you to stop breathing...

Unneccesasry. But thanks for sharing what I can only imagine is the unimaginable burden of your cognitive resources. obviously you didn't take my advice...damnit. :banghead

I'm really scared that a few people are taking this movie as gospel. It's scary, and I want to see why, allthough I think I already know the reason:

 

Once again further proof that Americans are stupid. They love/hate this movie because it is so easy to compartmentalize. Either it is everything they beleive, or everything they don't, but either way it's easy for them mentally, which is all they ever ask for.

 

 

Youre average person thinks liberals support criminals, are against hard working americans, are unpatriotic and unamerican, hate american business, and support communism. Its a naive perspective. This has nothing to do with elitism. Both sides are elitists. Strawman. I expect better from you. Please don't impose upon us the burden of speaking for "the average American". Ok, I saw "it" tonight.

 

First off, I think that it's fruitless for me to air all of the problems I have with the film here, so I'll spare you my breakdown of all that I think is wrong with the issues in the film. But I will give Mr. Moore credit, he is very good at what he does, even if I think what he does is cheap and and panders to an incredibly gullible, ignorant and intellectually lazy American public.

 

Which brings me back around to the topic at hand.....

 

The most disconcerting thing I drew from seeing the film had nothing to do with the ideas expressed in it per se. The disturbing thing that alarmed me is that the film is/will be highly influential, and for all the wrong reasons.

 

Moore makes it easy. Moore creates neat little packages of propaganda, and gift wraps them with the the finest in emotional suffering, lower class contempt and intellectual simplicity, all while ensuring that the suffering of every demographic is touched upon (except for that pesky "rich" white man, who once again is the cause of all that ills you.)

 

In the end, Moore gives the average American an "out." The average American need not research an issue, and they need not have to worry about sorting thorugh complex issues like geopolitics or socio-economic exploitation. Moore will package it all up and spoon feed it to you in small, mentally unchallenging tidbits that make you feel like you've been educated, when if fact you haven't even scratched the surface.

 

I know this sounds terribly elitist on my part, but please believe me when I tell you that I don't consider myself an intellectual superior. I'm probably just a little above average only due to circumstance, having attended an elite private prep school and then receiving an undergraduate degree from a not-so elite 4 year university. But this is what scares me the most. If I'm not an intellectual and I see thorugh this, what does that say abut the massive throngs of the American public, who fully subscibe to the panderings of Limbaugh, Franken, O'Reilly (And most importantly) Moore wholeheartedly without caveat or exception?

 

It scares me when the citizenry lends more rational creedence to the media outakes of it's leaders than to what it is that they do/have done.

 

And more importantly, it scares the living hell out of me when something so intellectualy simplistic can pass by the intellectual sentry of the american public with all the credentials of legitimacy when it does not remotely approach any semblance of legitimacy. Fish... Even if we wholeheartedly disagree on... Well, just about everything, I appreciate your honesty. I never thought in a million years that you would give Moore a chance and see his movie.

 

Now, let's jump into what sparked this thread. Pick one issue at a time and tell me what did you find untruthful in it.

I went and saw "F 9/11" last night, and wasn't all that impressed with it. Like I state in most of my possible controversial posts here, I am a pretty moderate conservative, who still has no idea whom Im voting for in November.

After watching this film, I must say that Michael Moore is a good filmmaker in that he does a very good job of getting across the point that he wants to without leaving much room for any type of opposition to attack.

The way I saw the movie was basically that is was in two parts: the first part was about Bush and pre-9/11 (including parts of 9/11 and Afghanistan), and the second part was all about Iraq. I'm going to have to agree with Fish Fillet here and say that the whole first part was giving Americans someone and something to blame for everything that has happened. Fish Fillet says it best when he says that "Moore makes it easy. Moore creates neat little packages of propaganda". Moore does present a few "conspiracy theories" here in the beginning, and some of them were quite interesting (like Bin Laden's family leaving the county on 9/13). But I don't think he spent enough time on any one of them that he presented. He would show one, have a little bit of evidence, and then quickly jump to another "theory". I think by not investigating any of them further than he did, he left them all open on the table for the audience to take (and with the group I was watching it with, they did). That concluded the "first part".

Then the second part. This part was a pretty emotional one, showing wounded from Iraq, talk to the soldiers, and the mother of that soldier who was killed. This part is why Michael Moore has such a following and is "good" (using the term loosely) at what he does. Moore has a lot of humor in the beginning, and then immediately goes to this very sad story. The movie was supposed to use the emotions of the audience to get them hooked, and this humor to sadness very quickly is one easy way to do that. (Please don't get the idea from that that I didn't think her story was sad; I think it was extremely sad).

One problem I noticed towards the end of the movie was him interviewing this lady whose son died, and asking her about protesters. He asked if she was upset by those, and she said that she eventually came to understand that they weren't protesting the soldiers and what they were doing, but what the administration was doing. He follows this immediately with footage of American soldiers harrassing Iraqi troops who are prisoners. This was kinda skewed because by this point, Moore is trying to take the blame off the soldiers and then shows them doing things like this; Moore is doing anything to show how stupid it is why we're there.

I also find it extremely convienent that Michael Moore can use Flint, MI when he needs it, but won't live there (He lives in a 1.9 million dollar home in NYC). He complains about how horrible it is, but won't do anything to help them out (He's making how much money?!) I just found this bothersome.

As far as I could tell (and trust me, I didn't know a lot about some of the things they were bringing up in the movie), there wans't anything "Untruthful". That being said, however, I think Moore is good at "stretching the truth" when he has to. He takes quotes out of context to use them for his own advantage and when showing Bush saying the same thing at different speeches, only shows a rotation of three-to-four speeches.

All in all, a pretty interesting movie. It wasn't one that I enjoyed too much, and I dont think will have any kind of impact on my vote in the 2004 Presidental Election.

I also find it extremely convienent that Michael Moore can use Flint, MI when he needs it, but won't live there (He lives in a 1.9 million dollar home in NYC). He complains about how horrible it is, but won't do anything to help them out (He's making how much money?!) I just found this bothersome.

As far as I could tell (and trust me, I didn't know a lot about some of the things they were bringing up in the movie), there wans't anything "Untruthful". That being said, however, I think Moore is good at "stretching the truth" when he has to. He takes quotes out of context to use them for his own advantage and when showing Bush saying the same thing at different speeches, only shows a rotation of three-to-four speeches.

All in all, a pretty interesting movie. It wasn't one that I enjoyed too much, and I dont think will have any kind of impact on my vote in the 2004 Presidental Election.

436367[/snapback]

 

Very good and honest review there clapin'. I must say I disagree on some of your points, but I can see that you saw it with an open mind.

 

I am not Michael Moore's spokeperson, but since there are so many people here already attacking him, I have took it upon myself to defend him somehow. Michael Moore came from a middle class family.

 

I really don't know why it bothers so many people that he makes money. Isn't it the purpose of a capitalist society to strive for sucess and make money? Maybe because he takes on greedy Corporations in most of his movies people immediately label him a communist or a socialist. One can be a capitalist but still strive to ensure that the less fortunate ones are taken care of.

 

I don't think Michael needs to give money to the people of Flint to help them. He's helped them a lot by showing their tragedy through his films, by calling attention to their problems with his "loud mouth". Besides, he is a major charity contributor. All proceeds from screenings prior to release on June 25 were donated to charity.

 

One can choose to help others in many ways. You can take 50 cents out of your packet and give it to the needy person on the street or you can film the tragedy of this jobless person and make the public aware of it, influencing politicians to take notice and maybe bring about some help to this poor person through education, training and job creation.

 

I think if I had the chance of doing what Michael Moore does, I'd do it. However, I use my vote to help elect the politician who is going to help this poor person on the street have the opportunity of getting out of poverty.

Lcyberlina, you said Moore exposed Bush's ties with unocal...I guess Moore does some pretty crappy research, I got paid nothing to figure this out:

http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...1&st=&p=entry

Amazing movie...

 

It's a must see for everyone, no matter what your political views are.

 

It's scary knowing what kind of moron we have running our country

 

And for the trigger happy war freaks who dont think twice about bombing the s*** out of innocent people in other countries, this movie would be a good "wake-up call" for them as well.

 

The ending was the best

shut up and watch me smoke this drive

 

 

 

shut up and watch me smoke this drive

 

 

 

441721[/snapback]

 

:lol

 

PWNED!

he has the sht*iest golf swing I've ever seen

 

looks just like Charles Barkleys....

 

Except Barkley would make a much better president

 

:plain

 

some people are just not educated enough to know that they are being dangerously oblivious by supporting this fool.

Shaq would make a better president.

clever

Yeah, you guys have all the answers.