CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 alkazoid, the voters demanded it in 2000 for good. So the state had to seek a solution and there came this private-public partnership between Fluor Bombadier. Acela works great and makes money in the northeast and it hasn't reached it's full potential yet. This was the brainchild of Graham when he started pushing it and eventually we got it done. Now we are starting to build it and many are trying to stop it. Florida needs a train system again, cars cannot do it much longer, the population is just too big and intercity travel has become too hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Here is the Acela, the nation's only high speed train so far. http://www.amtrak.com/trains/acelaexpress.html http://www.robl.w1.com/pix-5/ In Washington and Oregon, the Cascades is a state funded-Amtrak partnership. http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/amtrak/ or http://www.amtrakcascades.com/ The Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor is another project http://www.sehsr.org/ The Florida, Southeast and Acela high speed trains will combine to form a high speed rail network along the nation's eastern seaboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 In the coming decade, almost every major travel corridor in North America will be transformed to high speed rail...why not Florida? We have a huge population, we have used trains effectively in the past, and we already have the highway system as a route foundation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaq-Man Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Acela works great and makes money in the northeast and it hasn't reached it's full potential yet. 456540[/snapback] acela connects 18 stations on the most urban corridor in the entire country--connecting boston, NYC, philadelphia, and washington DC, and it only turns an operational profit if you dont count the astronomical cost of placing track, purchasing cars, and subsequent depreciation to those cars. here in florida, we want to connect the booming urban centers of pensacola, jacksonville, orlando, tampa, fort myers, and miami with track spanning a much, much, much greater distance than the distance between boston-NYC-philly-DC, and you want to tell me its not gonna lose gobs of money for taxpayers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Off the track The Rail Truth We don't need it. The status quo is not sustainable. We simply cannot build enough highways to keep pace with Florida's growth. We do need high speed rail. The Florida Dept. of Transportation (FDOT) states that Florida's highways will become 52 percent more crowded by 2010 than they were in 1990. We need a safe, swift, sensible alternative to driving. We won't ride it. 4 million passengers will ride it each year, between Tampa and Orlando. By the time you add the link to Miami, there will be more than 10 million people riding high speed rail in the state of Florida. We can't afford it. The state's share of the cost for the project will be $75 million per year, that's less than 1.5 percent of the state's $6.5 billion annual transportation budget. In fact, that money was set aside for high speed rail in the 1990s and has since been diverted to other projects, like building access roads to airports. The cost of the project will skyrocket. Fluor-Bombardier, the team selected to build the first leg of the system, has guaranteed costs for design and construction at a fixed price. And, the plan of finance put forward by the team begins paying back the cost of building the system to the state in the second year of operation. If ridership is not high enough the taxpayers will be penalized. Taxpayers will never be obligated to subsidize the system. That risk is borne by the private sector. The private sector needs to invest in the project. The plan of finance absolutely requires the private sector to invest and in fact they have with tens of millions of dollars of private equity. This proposal represents a true private/public partnership. The private sector also assumes full responsibility for any cost overruns that occur during construction, and full responsibility for 30 years of operations and maintenance of the high speed rail system. Many parts of the state don't need high speed rail. No one is suggesting we build high speed rail where there would be no ridership. But it makes sense to build it now where demand will support it, and to make plans for our future, by preserving rights of way and critical access points. We need to think responsibly about our economic future. Actually, we couldn't agree more with this statement. The first stage of high speed rail will create 7,000 new jobs and add $8.5 billion to the Florida economy. This project is all about Florida's economic future and preparing our state's transportation infrastructure to be a powerful added value to the economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Acela works great and makes money in the northeast and it hasn't reached it's full potential yet. 456540[/snapback] acela connects 18 stations on the most urban corridor in the entire country--connecting boston, NYC, philadelphia, and washington DC, and it only turns an operational profit if you dont count the astronomical cost of placing track, purchasing cars, and subsequent depreciation to those cars. here in florida, we want to connect the booming urban centers of pensacola, jacksonville, orlando, tampa, fort myers, and miami with track spanning a much, much, much greater distance than the distance between boston-NYC-philly-DC, and you want to tell me its not gonna lose gobs of money for taxpayers? 456552[/snapback] But slated for immediate construction is Tampa Bay-Orlando-South Florida. Would you not agree that those 3 areas could support this? Amtrak provides service in these 3 areas that connect to one another but it is not convenient enough for the masses to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Fluor Bombardier http://www.bombardier.com/fluor/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaq-Man Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 But slated for immediate construction is Tampa Bay-Orlando-South Florida. Would you not agree that those 3 areas could support this? Amtrak provides service in these 3 areas that connect to one another but it is not convenient enough for the masses to use. 456554[/snapback] in my opinion, no chance in hell. think of it this way. the metro population of boston, NY, philly, and DC combined is 10 times the population of tampa, orlando, and miami combined. additionally, the corridor between boston, nyc, philly, and dc is almost completely urban, while the corridor here is the total opposite. this is nothing like the acela, which, depending on whom you believe, is barely capable of breaking even. when bullet train systems gain in popularity and the construction becomes much cheaper, i might support this, but at the moment, it makes zero sense. i have no desire to let the state of florida become a pioneer at the cost of its taxpayers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Construction costs won't get any cheaper. That is a pipe dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 I think we should also aim to improve statewide train service via Amtrak. Hopefully the will open that new Miami to Jacksonville right of way with stations along the coast from Stuart to Melbourne to Daytona to Jacksonville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 I think we should also aim to improve statewide train service via Amtrak. Hopefully the will open that new Miami to Jacksonville right of way with stations along the coast from Stuart to Melbourne to Daytona to Jacksonville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaq-Man Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Construction costs won't get any cheaper. That is a pipe dream. 456570[/snapback] :lol :lol you dont think the 5th bullet train system in the US would be more cost-efficient to put together than the 2nd? (actually the 1st true "bullet" train of its kind in the US) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Construction costs won't get any cheaper. That is a pipe dream. 456570[/snapback] :lol :lol you dont think the 5th bullet train system in the US would be more cost-efficient to put together than the 2nd? (actually the 1st true "bullet" train of its kind in the US) 456575[/snapback] Tack on inflation, higher wages, and higher land prices and I would say it would be more expensive. This isn't a car or a computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Look at the prices of ballparks as an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Waiting = Paying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Lynx in Orlando is developing commuter rail and light rail systems similar to Tri-Rail (MetroRail is not comaprable to it, MetroRail is like a subway) and a light rail system like the proposed streetcars in BayLink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaq-Man Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Tack on inflation, higher wages, and higher land prices and I would say it would be more expensive. This isn't a car or a computer. 456576[/snapback] i disagree with you so, so, so much on that point. we dont even have a reliable cost analysis for this thing because an idea this quirky has never been implemented. regardless, whether it costs more now or in the future is totally irrelevant to this debate and has absolutely nothing to do with my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaq-Man Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Look at the prices of ballparks as an example. 456578[/snapback] thats like comparing apples to oranges. buildings and ballparks are constructed every single day. 500-mile statewide bullet train systems over rural areas are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TealMonster Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Lynx in Orlando is developing commuter rail and light rail systems similar to Tri-Rail (MetroRail is not comaprable to it, MetroRail is like a subway) and a light rail system like the proposed streetcars in BayLink. 456581[/snapback] Didnt they Cancel it or somthing? lynx went bankrupt last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Look at the prices of ballparks as an example. 456578[/snapback] thats like comparing apples to oranges. buildings and ballparks are constructed every single day. 500-mile statewide bullet train systems over rural areas are not. 456586[/snapback] Like they build transit systems everyday in this country. Bullet trains work in other countries and last time I checked they go through rural areas as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Lynx in Orlando is developing commuter rail and light rail systems similar to Tri-Rail (MetroRail is not comaprable to it, MetroRail is like a subway) and a light rail system like the proposed streetcars in BayLink. 456581[/snapback] Didnt they Cancel it or somthing? lynx went bankrupt last year. 456589[/snapback] With the development of the High Speed train, they did cancel it. But the plan is there and developed should the train not see fruition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaq-Man Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Like they build transit systems? everyday in this country. Bullet trains work in other countries and last time I checked they go through rural areas as well. 456591[/snapback] youre arguing something that is totally irrelevant to this debate. the ballpark analogy is beyond idiotic. operation of humongous bullet train systems connecting relatively unpopulated "urban" centers primarily for the purpose of tourism is a completely novel idea. whether it costs more now or later is totally irrelevant and thats the last i'll comment on that particular bit of minutia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 If the State had gotten together with Amtrak and fixed the intercity state train system, we wouldn't be having to spend so much on this bullet train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapeFish Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Like they build transit systems? everyday in this country. Bullet trains work in other countries and last time I checked they go through rural areas as well. 456591[/snapback] youre arguing something that is totally irrelevant to this debate. the ballpark analogy is beyond idiotic. operation of humongous bullet train systems connecting relatively unpopulated "urban" centers primarily for the purpose of tourism is a completely novel idea. whether it costs more now or later is totally irrelevant and thats the last i'll comment on that particular bit of minutia. 456598[/snapback] What is so novel? You move somebody from one city-region to another? What is new is using the bullet train, conventional trains have been doing this for decades. It is time to move up to the bullet train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaq-Man Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Like they build transit systems? everyday in this country. Bullet trains work in other countries and last time I checked they go through rural areas as well. 456591[/snapback] youre arguing something that is totally irrelevant to this debate. the ballpark analogy is beyond idiotic. operation of humongous bullet train systems connecting relatively unpopulated "urban" centers primarily for the purpose of tourism is a completely novel idea. whether it costs more now or later is totally irrelevant and thats the last i'll comment on that particular bit of minutia. 456598[/snapback] What is so novel? You move somebody from one city-region to another? What is new is using the bullet train, conventional trains have been doing this for decades. It is time to move up to the bullet train. 456601[/snapback] the word "novel" was primarily in reference to the irrelevant construction argument that i'm not commenting on. communities dont build bullet train systems between sparsely populated cities over huge distances of track with the hopes of having some sort of reliable tourist ridership. it's never been done...there's no reliable price / revenue / outlook analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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