October 5, 200422 yr OPS is OBP+Slugging%.? The argument that walks are overvalued is not a good argument against OPS because walks are not included in slugging %.? A walk is a successful at-bat no matter what way you look at it, though. Also, the argument that it only works for #3 hitters I disagree 100%, I could understand if we're talking about leadoff hitters, then I would value OBP higher than Slugging %, but give me two leadoff hitters with identical OBPs, but one guy has a much higher slugging % than the other and I'll take the guy with the higher slugging %.? Every player in the lineup's job is to get on base and to create runs, and OPS is the only stat that includes all ways to get on base and create runs. 582429[/snapback] Walks are part of OBP, so it absolutely counts. And come on, the only ones with slugging and on-base who truly affect how the team performs are the middle of the lineup guys. For a leadoff man, the only evaluator that really matters is batting average and OBP. And just FYI, the player who had the highest OPS on our team the last two years was everyone's favorite goat Derrek Lee, and he lead in 2000 as well. OPS is overvalued, I'm not saying it's a bad stat, it does help differentiate similar players, but to make it the one stat that determines a player's value is crazy. 582435[/snapback] Derrek Lee is a fine player. One reason I didn't mind the trade though because I knew Choi wouldn't be much of a drop off, and at $8 million less. Then of course we traded him too. :banghead and by saying that the only evaluator that matters for a leadoff man is OBP and batting average, you are basically saying that it wouldn't matter to you whether JP got on base with a single or a double or triple. Obviously you'd rather see him get an extra base hit. I've yet to have someone explain to me why OPS isn't important for guys hitting 6-7-8 either yet. 582439[/snapback] It's important but not applicable. With a stat like OPS, you want to quantify "how valuable" that middle of the lineup bat is. Most of the time you hear OPS is when you're trying to figure out who had a statistically better season when there are so many identical or close statistics. Simply put, you know that whoever is hitting 3-5 for your team is going to drive in runs, hit some home-runs and get on base, you just want to know "how much" he's doing. With the lower lineup guys, your expectations are a little lower, the statistics that drive a player more towards the bottom of the lineup are RBI (because when a lower lineup guy has a lot of RBI, you can say that he does cash in on limited opportunity) and OPS really doesn't become super relevant. If you 7-hole hitter is putting up a .900 OPS, you know he'd be the 5 hole hitter for a lot of inferior teams. Pretty much, the only time an OPS becomes important for lower lineup guys is if you're the Yankees or Cardinals. Other than that, OPS finds itself limited to the MVP race and the debate over who should hit third and who should hit fourth. 582450[/snapback] I don't think I'm following. Are you trying to say that OPS is not important to 6-7-8 hitters just because their not as good of hitters as the 3-5 hitters? That really doesn't make any sense. That's like saying the 1-5 hitters are the only hitters that matter in a lineup. Successful teams get production throughout the lineup. As we have seen this year, having a weak tail end of the lineup can kill a team. 6-7-8 hitters are just as important as 1-5 hitters. Another point no one on the marlins had a .900 OPS. The highest was .879 by Cabrera. 582456[/snapback] What I'm saying is that different things are expected from different points in the lineup. Is a leadoff hitter a failure because he doesn't hit 30 HR's? No, because that's not expected from him. You seem to think that OPS is an applicable stat to everyone in the lineup, but go look at the top 30 OPS leaders this year, they'd all be batting anywhere from 3-5 in the lineup. And look at the OPS leaders for our team. Cabrera, Lowell...our 3 and 4 hitters. 582463[/snapback] of course the best hitters are going to have the highest OPS'. That really doesn't come close to answering the question why OPS does not apply to the bottom of the lineup, though. Of course we shouldn't expect some players to hit a lot of homers, but if they have a nack for getting on base than that'll make up for that. That's the beauty of OPS, it includes both OBP and slugging %. Because in the end the job of each hitter in the lineup is basically the same. To get on base and create runs with singles, extra base hits, and home runs.
October 5, 200422 yr Author Most of these people don't like OPS-type players either because they don't understand OPS or just don't think its important.? You can't convince them that its a meaningful stat it seems.? I mean hell when Choi was traded some people celebrated that he was gone not that we got LoDuca and Mota.? They just wanted Choi gone because he didn't hit for a .300 average or have a gazzillion RBI's. 582358[/snapback] Meh. OPS works for middle of the lineup hitters. My knocks on Willy are from a catcher's standpoint. 582409[/snapback] That's pretty much my thoughts on OPS too. You want your sluggers behind your on-base guys. I don't think Willingham can be any worse than LoDuca at blocking the plate or throwing down to second. Josh is also said to be a good pitch caller.
October 5, 200422 yr I want someone who can hit with the bases loaded and gets lots of RBIs. What else is there? If a guy acnt get a run batted in you would NEVER score ANY runs. Fill a team with Anti-Clutch Derek Lees and you would have a team who would wait for game thats way out of reach THEN they decide to hit homers. Clutch hitters win games and thats what I want.
October 5, 200422 yr I want someone who can hit with the bases loaded and gets lots of RBIs. What else is there? If a guy acnt get a run batted in you would NEVER score ANY runs. Fill a team with Anti-Clutch Derek Lees and you would have a team who would wait for game thats way out of reach THEN they decide to hit homers. Clutch hitters win games and thats what I want. 582586[/snapback] :lol
October 5, 200422 yr Most of these people don't like OPS-type players either because they don't understand OPS or just don't think its important.? You can't convince them that its a meaningful stat it seems.? I mean hell when Choi was traded some people celebrated that he was gone not that we got LoDuca and Mota.? They just wanted Choi gone because he didn't hit for a .300 average or have a gazzillion RBI's. 582358[/snapback] Meh. OPS works for middle of the lineup hitters. My knocks on Willy are from a catcher's standpoint. 582409[/snapback] Why whats the difference? Either way your measuring a players offensive capabilties. 582422[/snapback] Not all types of hitters are fully measured by OPS.
October 5, 200422 yr OPS is value, it's over-rated when evaluating every player on the team blindly. I'd rather have Pierre batting leadoff than Burnitz. Ideally you want your middle of the lineup with high OPS and if you aren't the Yankees or Sox you can't always have that. Slugging is a very very expensive commodity and the reason Beane puts so much emphasis on OBP is because it's alot cheaper than SLG... What do you do for 6 - 8 hitters as a small-market team? You don't do what the Fish did this season and stack up players of the same mold and the same glaring weaknesses back to back to back in Gonzo, Encarnacion and Conine. Go after some cheap guy with a high OBP with modest power 10 - 14 homers and bat him second...then put Luis in 6th or 7th spot... You don't want to exacerbate players' weaknesses by putting them all together if they share one... Bring in Dellucci to bat after Luis... We have two leadoff hitters...it's hard to make it work...if Pierre and Luis weren't two of my faves I'd say trade one of them...
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