As always, please delete if someone's already posted.

 

More love from the national media.

 

Tuesday, September 2, 2003

 

By Rob Neyer

ESPN.com

 

The link threw me for a loop.

 

Marlins in first, it said.

 

The Marlins? First?

 

Well, not exactly. The Marlins are in second place in the National League East, but they do have the best record among all the National League teams that are not in first place. Which means they're in first. Sort of. I think.

 

?

Josh Beckett is 3-3 with a 2.85 ERA in eight starts since the All-Star break.

 

 

I kid, because it gives me pleasure. But I don't mean to diminish what the Marlins have accomplished.

 

I don't know if there's a "secret" to the Marlins' success, but I think there's one obvious reason for it: they're in almost every game they play, because of their starting pitchers. Here are their five starters:

 

 

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Innings? W- L? ? ERA

Josh Beckett? 107? ? 6- 7? ? ? 3.35

Don. Willis? ? ? 123? ? 11- 5? ? 3.43

Mark Redman? 161? 11- 8? ? 3.47?

Brad Penny? ? 175? 12-10? ? 4.12

Carl Pavano? ? 171? 11-11? ? 4.17

 

 

They don't have any Cy Young candidates, but every one of these guys could have a job in any contending team's rotation. The other striking thing is that only two-fifths of this Marlins rotation was, two years ago, supposed to be here. Remember all the articles about Josh Beckett, Brad Penny, A.J. Burnett, and Ryan Dempster?

 

Well, Dempster's gone and Burnett's on the shelf. Beckett and Penny have both pitched effectively, but neither have done anything to suggest that they've got Hall of Fame plaques in their future.

 

Don't get me wrong; Beckett and Penny both are still young and both still have worlds of talent, but they're also proving TNSTAAPP (There's No Such Thing as a Pitching Prospect, which I like to repeat mostly because I know it annoys my friends at Baseball America). If the 2003 Marlins had to rely on their Big Four pitching prospects of 2001, they'd be in trouble.

 

But they don't. They brought up Dontrelle Willis this season, before anybody thought he'd be ready. They traded for Carl Pavano last summer, and this summer he's pitched as well as everybody always thought he might. They traded for Mark Redman last winter, and all Redman's done is pitch better than anybody else on the staff. (Redman, by the way, is 29 years old and entered 2003 with a 4.57 career ERA in the major leagues.)

 

The Marlins have another secret weapon, in the name of Juan Pierre. Pierre was something of a disaster with the Rockies in 2002, and I wasn't at all convinced that he could actually improve away from Coors Field. But improve he has. No, Pierre doesn't have any power. But he does have a .359 on-base percentage, he has stolen 57 bases this season, and he does play well enough in center field. The Rockies were smart to give up on Pierre, and the Marlins were smart to take a flyer on him.

 

I've written a number of negative things about Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria. Or maybe I haven't, but meant to. And I'm not going to take back all those things I wrote, or meant to write. That said, anybody who ever said that Loria doesn't want to win should be eating those words, because Loria's behaving like a man who does want to win, desperately.

 

I've written a number of negative things about Ivan Rodriguez over the years. Not negative, really; I just think a lot of people think he's been a better player than he's actually been. But I also thought he was a pretty good risk for the Marlins this season, considering how well he's played in recent seasons when he's been healthy. Well, he's been healthy and he's been one of the three best catchers in the majors.

 

He's also costing the Marlins nearly $10 million this season, and Loria deserves credit for spending that $10 million. I don't know how much credit Loria deserves for the trades that brought Redman and, recently, Ugueth Urbina to the Marlins. But he employs the men who made those deals, so Loria certainly deserves some credit, just as he deserves some credit for the hiring of Jack McKeon as manager.

 

From what I've read about Jeffrey Loria, I don't like him a whole lot. It's generally believed that he didn't treat his co-owners of the Expos fairly, and it's fairly obvious that he didn't treat the good baseball fans in Quebec fairly. But there's a big difference between disliking someone from a distance, and refusing to acknowledge when that someone's accomplished something worthy of praise.

 

My gut feeling is that the Marlins have played over their heads a bit this season, and that they'll be overtaken for "first place" by the Phillies, or maybe the Astros or Cardinals, or maybe even the Dodgers or Diamondbacks. But like the Royals, the Marlins should consider this a successful season no matter what happens in September. They have a shot, which is more than anybody thought they'd get

im not usually a Neyer fan....

 

but nice article nonetheless

I'm now a big fan and devout follower of the "TNSTAAPP".

 

He's right, there is no such thing....

TNSTAAPP for gov of California

TNSTAAPP is the way, the truth, and the light.

Fillet this is a good article about the Marlins .. im suprised you posted it.

I too agree on the TNSTAAPP theory .

Fillet this is a good article about the Marlins .. im suprised you posted it

 

Tsk. Tsk. I stand here shocked at your insensitive and thouroughly inappropriate indictment of my dilligence as a fan.

 

Anyway. Mostly positive, but it appeals to my negative side by backhanding Loria a bit.

lol on the TNSTAAPP...Neyer said it best when he described Loria as almost "desperate" to win which is exactly how I would describe this latest deal. Good article.

your "Negative Side"........Wait a second , is there another side to you we havent seen ? oh yeah , i forgot about your cynicle side , my bad

Don't forget pessimistic.

I think that falls into your negative side

I'm now a big fan and devout follower of the "TNSTAAPP".

 

He's right, there is no such thing....

 

So, I guess the Marlins should've dumped Josh Beckett for someone like Eric Young, then, since there's no such thing.

Yeah, and I guess we should of kept Demspter. Oh, and by the way, when's the last time Burnett pitched?

 

You are not going to sell me on Beckett. He's average and has spent a third of his career on the DL. All of these highly touted Marlins pitching prospects turn into fantastically mediocre pitchers. And there isn't a single prospect you can point to that proves otherwise.

of course not Fish Fry, but no one is guaranteed....

 

and when Josh is healthy, he has been good, he hasnt been healthy for a whole year yet

Just read the article before coming here. Loved it. It's amazing though, how many people are STILL picking the Phils over the Fish. Their bullpen is not good- Mesa, their closer, must have a 6 ERA now, and we embarassed Mike Williams the last time we played them. I just don't see the Phillies making the playoffs.

Hey, for all of you who are disappointed with the outcome of Marlins pitching "prospects." You need to take things in context. Everyone knows that high school pitchers do not make good prospects, and usually flop. I agree with that philosophy, even though I became obsessed with Beckett before I had soccumbed. But anyway, look at the Marlins and my favorite team, the Braves. THe prospects that they get out of high school really turn out to be mediocre, even though we (the Braves) have a good amount of pitching prospects that came out of high school, and hopefully the Adam Wainwrights of the world will defy the philosophy. But look at college pitching prospects: they usually do pretty well. Then look at the high schoolers, many of the best pitchers in the majors right now that came out of high school weren't brilliant "prospects" like the Becketts of the world were, they just emerged later in their minor league careers.

You are not going to sell me on Beckett. He's average.

Josh Beckett has been average?

 

OK! Suuuure.

 

Take a look at this years, and his career numbers, then come talk to me.

he needs to be healthy...

Neyer has written a mediocre article here. There is nothing particularly insightful about this article and he seems to be backtracking any negative comments he made earlier in the year about the Marlins. He is eating crow, but trying to tell you it really tastes good.

 

It figures that some of you would believe his BS about TINSTAAPP...it is total crap. By that logic, then you better make TINSTAAHP too, and what the hell, dont even bother to evaluate talent at all. After all, TINSTAAHPs have to face TINSTAAPPs and vice versa to get any kind of development. Neyer never explained his point, but nonetheless FishFillet jumped all over it like a groupie at a Def Leppard concert - and that is never pretty, is it?

 

Marlins still are not getting credit. Beinfest should be given nomination for GM of year, and McKeon should get nomination for manager of the year. Both should be beaten out by Cox and Schulerholz though...as much as that pains me...

he needs to be healthy...

Very true. But when he's healthy, is far from average. Especially considering the fact he's still 23-years-old.

It figures that some of you would believe his BS about TINSTAAPP...it is total crap. By that logic, then you better make TINSTAAHP too

Well, seeing as I have been preaching the TNSTAAPP principle for a while without using those terms, I thought it was appropriate to put in the sig.

And what would you say about Burnett? Would you rather not have him on your team - would you let him go just because he is injured and out this year? It seems a lot of you are afraid of injury so much that it would freeze your evaluation of players. Injury is about potentiality, not an exact science. It can happen to ANYONE potentially, does not mean it will. This BS about 'TINSTAAPP' is ridiculous, and none of you supporters have yet to explain it.

And what would you say about Burnett? Would you rather not have him on your team - would you let him go just because he is injured and out this year? It seems a lot of you are afraid of injury so much that it would freeze your evaluation of players. Injury is about potentiality, not an exact science. It can happen to ANYONE potentially, does not mean it will. This BS about 'TINSTAAPP' is ridiculous, and none of you supporters have yet to explain it.

I have never said anything about pitchers that get hurt. I'm talking about pitchers that are prospects, and all prospects for that matter. I would explain myself but I'm doing hw and don't have enough time to type a long post. Remind me tomorrow.